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I was playing my friend today who plays blood angels and my incubi and archon (already with one pain token) came into close combat with his assault marines and Librarian. My archon went first and killed the Librarian instantly because of an equipped husk blade. Our Question: Does the unit of incubi automatically get the "Furious Charge" benefit (the S5 attacks)?

You'd get the pain token, but you would have had to have it at the beginning of the Assault phase to benefit from Furious Charge. You've already charged into combat, so you're stuck with normal strength and initiative.

Ok.
We as a group decided that the effects took place immediately because the wording of the rule is "due to immediately getting the token" we determined that meant the effects of furious charge as well because seeing as it was striking initiative order, the incubi had not gone yet and it would confer to them.
What is your take on this?

For attacks in close combat the Archon is a separate unit; so when he kills a unit he gains a pain token, but the incubi do not benefit from it until after the combat is finished(last wound is resolved at I1 step); no unit will ever benefit from the furious charge granting token in CC.

By that theory, how would it work of the klaivrite killed the librarian? Its part of the unit?

I see that your logic behind FC benefitting them is due to the iniative order and the wording of FC on pg 75. I also believe that if someone was playing with a similar unit as the one you listed and gained their first pain token, instead of the second, that most would argue the squad immediately has FNP rather then waiting until the current assault round to end before benefitting from it.

After reading both power from pain and FC I'm inclined to agree with the OP.

Personally I believe the RAI is that you wouldn't gain the benefits of FC since the assault was already launched. However, FC simply states "a turn in which they assaulted into combat".

Kommissar Kel wrote:For attacks in close combat the Archon is a separate unit; so when he kills a unit he gains a pain token, but the incubi do not benefit from it until after the combat is finished(last wound is resolved at I1 step); no unit will ever benefit from the furious charge granting token in CC.

Apart from units where the UC has higher I

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:For attacks in close combat the Archon is a separate unit; so when he kills a unit he gains a pain token, but the incubi do not benefit from it until after the combat is finished(last wound is resolved at I1 step); no unit will ever benefit from the furious charge granting token in CC.

Apart from units where the UC has higher I

The UC would have to be 2 I steps higher.

If the UC is 1 step higher, and kills an IC/1-2 model unit in a multi-assault; the unit cannot benefit from FC because they cannot retroactively strike simultaneously with the UC that earned them the FC token.

Let go with the Incubi:

1 Klaivex and 4 incubi charge.
Klaivex swings first at I-step 6 on an enemy IC; Hits with 4 attacks, and kills the IC.; unit now gains a PfP token granting them FC, I-step 6 is over it is time for I-step 5.

On I-step 5 either the Incubi swing without benefit of FC at all, or the Incubi cannot swing at all because it is not their I-step(which would be 6).

The Incubi could not go back and make their attacks in I-step 6 after their Klaivex killed the IC, because all attacks in an initiative step are simultaneous so the Incubi have no FC until after I6.

If a UC is 2 Initiative steps higher, then the unit could benefit.

I did forget to mention that the turn in question the archon/incubi unit charged the assault marines, so it eas the firt round of close combat. Does this change anything?

MidKnightsRose wrote:I did forget to mention that the turn in question the archon/incubi unit charged the assault marines, so it eas the firt round of close combat. Does this change anything?

I had assumed from the nature of your question that this was the turn in which your Incubi Charged.

And, no, it does not change anything; ICs will not grant the pain token to the squad they are with when they gain one in assault, and a unit cannot benefit from a second pain token gained by the UC unless said upgrade character has an I value 2 higher.

Archon strikes at I7...kills an IC and gains pain token. (Unit now has FNP)

Klaivex strikes at I6...kills another IC and gains a pain token. (Unit now has FnP and Furious Charge)

Incubi strike at I5...they have FNP and FC, but since FC would have turned them to I6 they cannot benefit from FC for this turn.

The OP listed the Archon making the second pain token though, in that case the Klaivex (if one was present) would not benefit from FC since I7 has already taken place, however the regular Incubi should strike at I6 with +1 strength.

I realize this is mostly a regurgitation of what Kel said, I just wanted to make sure I was tracking.

GreyChaos wrote:Archon strikes at I7...kills an IC and gains pain token. (Unit now has FNP)

Klaivex strikes at I6...kills another IC and gains a pain token. (Unit now has FnP and Furious Charge)

Incubi strike at I5...they have FNP and FC, but since FC would have turned them to I6 they cannot benefit from FC for this turn.

The OP listed the Archon making the second pain token though, in that case the Klaivex (if one was present) would not benefit from FC since I7 has already taken place, however the regular Incubi should strike at I6 with +1 strength.

I realize this is mostly a regurgitation of what Kel said, I just wanted to make sure I was tracking.

mostly, but with 1 major flaw:

The Archon is a separate unit from the Incubi while resolving attacks, so in your example, the Unit and the Archon would both have a single pain token and each have FNP; then after the last wound in I1 has been resolved they(the IC) return to the unit and the whole unit combines their total pain tokens.

Since ICs do not actually separate from the unit(they only fight as separate units) during combat the Pain tokens already accrued between the core Unit and the IC are still shared equally and so both "units" in the CC gain the benefit of every token already accrued.

I'm confused by what you said because when the squad assaults the Archon and Incubi are sharing a single pain token, so they both have FnP during the assault. Even though they are treated as seperate units while in CC they are still attached and therefore share all pain tokens. I don't understand where you're getting that they don't combine any gained tokens until the end of the initiative sequence, all I see is that all pain tokens are gained immediately and when it's a combined unit they share said tokens.

I understand that you're saying pain tokens are shared upon the completion of the assault phase, I just don't see where it says that in the rules.

A few things.

1. If a pain token is gained, it is gained immediately, and all effects are applied immediately.
"Immediately" doesn't mean "later", it means "immediately". There's really no ambiguity here and no way to misinterpret it as anything else..

2. Please show us all exactly where it says that Furious Charge must be present at the start of the turn for the benefits to occur?
The only statement about when you must have the Furious Charge rule to gain a benefit is the following: "In a turn in which they assaulted into combat".
Not 'at the start of the turn', not 'when moving into assault', just 'in a turn'. And since they gain furious charge *immediately* upon gaining the pain token, clearly they gain the benefits of Furious Charge if a model in their unit with a higher initiative score gains a pain token before they get to strike.

3. Where does it say that an IC doesn't count as part of the unit which he has joined for the purposes of pain tokens? The ONLY way in which an IC does not count as part of the unit he is with is when it comes to targeting and being targeted by melee attacks. In every other respect that IC counts as a member of the unit, including for Sharing the Pain.

4. Combining all of this, since the incubi in question would get +1 Initiative immediately upon gaining a second pain token from a klaivex or IC, there are only four possible outcomes.
A: They don't attack at all, as 'initiative 6' has already struck. This is obviously a very stupid ruling and it'd take a very stupid person to suggest it.
B: They attack at initiative 5 and with Strength 4 for some reason despite having initiative 6 and Strength 5. This is obviously wrong because they're not using their profile.
C: They attack at initiative 5 and with strength 5 for some reason despite having initiative 6 and strength 5. This is also obviously wrong because they're not using their profile.
D: They attack at initiative 6, strength 5. This is really the only reasonable conclusion.

3) is incorrect. Page 49 states explicitly that they are a separate unit when resolbing attacks.

I agree with mynamelegend on all points except number 4.

The problem with D is that since I 6 has already taken place then the Incubi now have to attack during I 5. There isn't an I 5 1/2 for them to attack after all the I 6 and before all the I 5 so they would still have to fight during I 5. Now would I allow them to still get the bonus STR from Furious Charge, probably. So I would say either B or C would be the correct answer, most likely B since it doesn't cut a rule in half and doesn't cheat the initiative sequence. A is obviously silly, you wouldn't lose attacks and as I said, D simply breaks rules so it wouldn't be allowed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:3) is incorrect. Page 49 states explicitly that they are a separate unit when resolbing attacks.

Correct, but if they were true "seperate units" then the squad would have to split all pain tokens they had prior to the assault since they have now "seperated". Since that is not the case they are still considered a joint unit, just the IC can be targeted seperately. They will not be seperated until a movement phase in which the IC moves away from the other unit.

I agree with mynamelegend on point number 4D.

The archon at initiative 7 attacked . Were there any other units at I7? No, then the Klaivex at initiative 6 attacks. This gains the unit a pain token so the Incubi are now at I6. Are there any other units at I6? Yes, the Incubi. So they now attack. After that are there any other models at I6? No, then models at I5 now attack.

Just because the klaivex attacked at I6 when it was his turn means that suddenly the "I6 'turn'" is over. There are no phases in assault. You simply attack in initiative order.

"Sharing the Pain"
As long as the IC is attached to the unit, when he kills something the whole unit gets it, because he is attached to it.

An important point to consider here is that enemy models may also be attacking during the turn in which the pain token is earned. If a group of incubi (I5) and Klaivex (I6) assault a group of Wyches (I6) and their Klaivex earns them a pain token, the full group of Incubi will get to attack -- even those Incubi that were slain by Wyches. Moreover, they will attack with their newly improved S5.

Obviously, Incubi slain during earlier initiative phases (such as an Archon's I7) will not receive any attacks. The important part here is that until everyone with an Initiative 6 value gets their attacks, the phase is not resolved. And that includes the Incubi that just earned their pain token, whether they've been killed by other I6 models or not.

The problem with this is that if you earned the pain token during I6 then how can a unit bump up into I6? You either finish I6 and an IC/unit dies giving your unit a pain token or you say "Hey we're still doing I6 so my unit is alive until the conclusion of said initiative."

This is the problem with the whole discussion. If you earned the pain token due to the "conclusion" of what happened during I6 then I6 is now over and I5 has begun. You don't say "Oh well I lost a couple of Incubi during I6, but now we're suddenly I6 so they aren't actually dead yet and can get some last second swings in." The I6 had to conclude for the squad to ever benefit from power from pain, if it doesn't end and become the next initiative then it's still I6 and the IC/unit that died to give PfP is still alive and kicking.

I believe because of this simple logic that for the most part we would all agree that RAI should be that you only benefit from FC if you had it prior to your assault. Once again though, the RAW for FC does not spell it out this way :(

GreyChaos wrote:
I believe because of this simple logic that for the most part we would all agree that RAI should be that you only benefit from FC if you had it prior to your assault. Once again though, the RAW for FC does not spell it out this way :(

You had to bring logic (/shudder) into this, didn't you, GreyChaos? Now to begin the debate between Nos and Brother Ramses...

GreyChaos wrote:The I6 had to conclude for the squad to ever benefit from power from pain, if it doesn't end and become the next initiative then it's still I6 and the IC/unit that died to give PfP is still alive and kicking.

Ahh, but herein lies your error -- just because a unit has died does not mean the initiative phase is over. The initiative phase is only concluded when all models have resolved their attacks -- including the Incubi, which have just received their pain token. As long as there are still models that need to resolve their attacks, that initiative phase is not over.

In many respects, it's not unlike a rule that grants bonus attacks upon killing a model. You don't ignore them just because you've already proceeded to wound allocation. You go back and roll them, just like you would any other attacks for that phase.

GreyChaos wrote:Once again though, the RAW for FC does not spell it out this way :(

The BA FAQ doesn't either.

You check to see if you are in the Sanguinary priests bubble when you are at the attack steps.

If you were in the bubble before the assault and charge outside the bubble; you do not have FC for making your attacks.

If you are in the Bubble after charging, you get FC; even if you were not inside the bubble before you charged.

Corollax wrote:An important point to consider here is that enemy models may also be attacking during the turn in which the pain token is earned. If a group of incubi (I5) and Klaivex (I6) assault a group of Wyches (I6) and their Klaivex earns them a pain token, the full group of Incubi will get to attack -- even those Incubi that were slain by Wyches. Moreover, they will attack with their newly improved S5.

Obviously, Incubi slain during earlier initiative phases (such as an Archon's I7) will not receive any attacks. The important part here is that until everyone with an Initiative 6 value gets their attacks, the phase is not resolved. And that includes the Incubi that just earned their pain token, whether they've been killed by other I6 models or not.

Ahh, but herein lies your error -- just because a unit has died does not mean the initiative phase is over. The initiative phase is only concluded when all models have resolved their attacks -- including the Incubi, which have just received their pain token. As long as there are still models that need to resolve their attacks, that initiative phase is not over.

In many respects, it's not unlike a rule that grants bonus attacks upon killing a model. You don't ignore them just because you've already proceeded to wound allocation. You go back and roll them, just like you would any other attacks for that phase.

I would be inclined to agree with you if you were simply treating it as a continuation of the current initiative (much like a furioso with talons does), however your earlier statement contradicts this. You said that even Incubi killed during I6 would still be allowed their attacks. If that is the case then your logic is at fault, since if you're going to claim your Incubi are still alive for a moment longer to get their attacks, then the model that awarded them said token should also be alive...thus no FC. Now if you were to refute your previous statement and ONLY claim that the FC allows the initiative step to "continue" thus allowing any surviving Incubi to become I6 then I would be inclined to agree with you. The problem is that your original statement was faulty, thus my disagreement

As Kel brought up though with the BA FAQ, the Incubi "should" benefit from the FC when their initiative comes up.

So if a unit had a rule that granted +1 attack per model when they successfully killed an enemy unit, would you let models that were dying that initiative phase get their additional attack? I would certainly think so -- they acted that initiative phase, and should be entitled to the benefits of their ability whether they survive or not.

I see it as "dying" rather than "dead." You've delivered a killing blow to the enemy IC, which awards you a pain token. This lets your incubi attack on the newer initiative phase -- even those incubi that were also placed into a "dying" state. They get their last attacks and are then removed from play before the initiative 5 phase begins.

Corollax wrote:Ahh, but herein lies your error -- just because a unit has died does not mean the initiative phase is over. The initiative phase is only concluded when all models have resolved their attacks -- including the Incubi, which have just received their pain token. As long as there are still models that need to resolve their attacks, that initiative phase is not over.

empahsis added
Assuming that you are correct that phase concludes after all attacks have been resolved, then the phase has to have ended since you don't award tokens during wound allocation only after all of the wounds on both sides have been resolved.

On the contrary. "Whenever a dark eldar unit with this rule destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit, it immediately gains a pain token." If you're waiting until all wounds have been resolved, you're not giving the pain token immediately, now are you?

The unit is not destroyed until wounds have been resolved.

Sure -- but there's nothing saying that you can't go back to resolve additional attacks after wound resolution has occurred. Which is precisely what must happen here.

Corollax wrote:So if a unit had a rule that granted +1 attack per model when they successfully killed an enemy unit, would you let models that were dying that initiative phase get their additional attack? I would certainly think so -- they acted that initiative phase, and should be entitled to the benefits of their ability whether they survive or not.

I see it as "dying" rather than "dead." You've delivered a killing blow to the enemy IC, which awards you a pain token. This lets your incubi attack on the newer initiative phase -- even those incubi that were also placed into a "dying" state. They get their last attacks and are then removed from play before the initiative 5 phase begins.

yes because the rule that states the model gains additional attacks off of resolved attacks is specifically allowing additional attacks.

Take a BA Furioso with 2x Blood talons; the rules specifically allow for additional attacks generated upon the destruction of enemy models.

PfP granting FC only alters the I value of the rest of the unit, it does not specifically allow additional attacks to be made that I-step.

All attacks in a given I-step are simultaneous, the order they are resolved in does not matter(Model with I4, that are killed in the I4-step, still get to make their attacks).

The +1Attacks per model killed; does add some sequentiality to some attacks, but only those attacks that are specifically granted by the resolution of all the base(or previous set of) attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corollax wrote:Sure -- but there's nothing saying that you can't go back to resolve additional attacks after wound resolution has occurred. Which is precisely what must happen here.

There are no additional attacks granted in this case.

There are base attacks only.