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Kommissar Kel wrote:

Corollax wrote:The +1Attacks per model killed; does add some sequentiality to some attacks, but only those attacks that are specifically granted by the resolution of all the base(or previous set of) attacks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corollax wrote:Sure -- but there's nothing saying that you can't go back to resolve additional attacks after wound resolution has occurred. Which is precisely what must happen here.

There are no additional attacks granted in this case.

There are base attacks only.

Nail on the head. Read through the dex/BRB/FAQ a couple more times and conferred with some DE friends and it seems to boil down to what Kel says right here. These are not "additional attacks" as you might want to believe Coro, nothing special like Onslaught for Incubi or Blood Talons for Dreads...this is the normal attacks of a unit. Since all initiatives are required to be played out at the same time when they come up it boils down to I6 has already taken place in order for the PfP to happen. The Incubi do not get some special last second ability allowing them to jump in at the tail end of I6 and suddenly resurrect their dead and get a few cheap shots in, I6 had to end with its results just to give them the token.

You continually say "pfp is given immediately" and it is. When saves are rolled and failed, the models that failed them for that initiative are removed, and the next initiative begins. The ONLY exception to this is special rules allowing for a continuation of the current phase, i.e. talons. At this point anything killed during I4 (slow dread) on other side of the combat is still dead and removed, the dread simply takes some more swings and continues to pile up the bodies. If for instance a Klaivex was I4 and the Incubi I3 and the Klaivex has managed to kill an IC during this phase, but a talon dread was still cutting through Incubi then the dread would continue to kill them until he either failed to make an unsaved wound or the Incubi were all wiped out. They wouldn't suddenly start fighting back because the Klaivex killed that IC, because it's not their turn. Nothing allows them to jump into an initiative that has already begun, the BRB simply says that when an iniative is reached, all models of that initiative make simultaneous attacks. Since the incubi were not able to attack with everyone else, then they have to wait until the next initiative to get their attacks.

GreyChaos wrote: the BRB simply says that when an iniative is reached, all models of that initiative make simultaneous attacks.

Partially correct. The rule says to work your way through the I of the engaged models starting with the highest and working down.
Models attack when their I value is reached providing they haven't already been killed.
Models with the same I value attack simultaneously.
Last sentence says "Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's initiative."
PFP can modify a model's initiative, and in the original example work work like this;

Archon has I 7. He strikes first.
Klaivex has I 6. He then strikes.
If an enemy unit has I 6, it strikes simuptaneously with the klaivex. If this kills an incubi, it is removed because the incubi's I 5 hasen't yet been reached.
If the klaivex destroyes an enemy unit and gains a second pain token, the remaining incubi gain 1 to I and S.
The remaining incubi now attack at I 6. If they were engaged with an enmy unti that was I 5, they would have attacked simultaneously, but since they have added 1 to their I value, they now attack before the model with I5.

The incubi that were killed and removed before their unit gained 1 to their initiative cannot now attack because as the rule said they attack when their I value is reached providing they haven't already been killed.

Time Wizard; In your example you are having models using a bonus gained simultaneously with their use.

FC does not add additional attacks.

So your Incubi are attempting to use their base attacks that would go simultaneously with the Klaivex that earned them the ability to strike at I6.

If the unit does not already have FC, they cannot benefit from it from their klaivex's attacks.

Kommissar Kel wrote: Time Wizard; In your example you are having models using a bonus gained simultaneously with their use.

FC does not add additional attacks.

I never said it does

Kommissar Kel wrote:So your Incubi are attempting to use their base attacks that would go simultaneously with the Klaivex that earned them the ability to strike at I6.

If the unit does not already have FC, they cannot benefit from it from their klaivex's attacks.

No, because at the time the klaivex attacked, it had I 6 and the incubi had I 5. Clearly the klaivex would attack first since the attacks go in initiative order.

The klaivex now destroys a unit gaining another pain token. The incubi now have 2 pain tokens and gain 1 to their I and S. There are no additional attacks gained.

The incubi now attack because they are now at initiative 6. They don't attack simultaneously with the klaivex because the klaivex already attacked.

After the incubi attack, you continue the assaults in initiative order.

This is becase the DE codex says the pain token is gained immediately, and the rule I cited saiys "...that certain situations can modify a model's initiative."
Gaining a pain token, which immediately grants FC, has modified the incubi's initiative and strength. They now attack with those modifications.
But you don't go back and 're-do' any attacks that have already taken place.

The problem is that ALL attacks at a set initiative are performed simultaneously...this is not possible when the Incubi gain FC during the assault. Continually quoting "situations can modify a model's initiative" still doesn't explain how FC can allow a squad to attack inbetween initiatives, or at the end of one when all units are suppose to attack at the same time when their initiative step comes up.

Time - you are removing the requirement for simultaneous attacking at each I step. By splitting it into two "I6" steps you are breaking the rules.

Technically they gain FC, are bumped to I6 and lose the ability to attack as the I6 time to roll-to-hit, to wound etc has already passed

That interpretation rewards the opponent for losing an IC and penalizes the incubi for gaining furious charge. I find that conclusion absurd. I think most reasonable individuals would agree.

Edit: The Tyranid FAQ has answered the question in any case.

Check the Tyranids FAQ. If Tyrant Guard gain FC after they've assaulted, but before they make attacks they don't benefit. So it's safe to assume the same applies to Dark Eldar as well

EDIT: Tyrant, not Hive, Guard.

Chrysis wrote:Check the Tyranids FAQ. If Tyrant Guard gain FC after they've assaulted, but before they make attacks they don't benefit. So it's safe to assume the same applies to Dark Eldar as well

EDIT: Tyrant, not Hive, Guard.

Problem with this is the Blood Angels FAQ counteracts this because if a Sanguinary Priest was in a separate assault then another unit and you do that attack first and wipe the unit he was fighting and after the consolidation move puts the other unit first outside the bubble is now in the bubble they gain the benefits.

I have to agree with Time Wizard on this issue.

Yeah, yet another ruling where Nids got shafted.

The big book says:

"Work your way through the I values of the models engaged in combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest. Models make their attacks when their I value is reached, assuming they haven't already been killed by a model with a higher I. If both sides have models with the same I value, their attacks are made simultaneously".

Now, my programmer mind elaborates the instructions like this:

1 - start at I 10.
2 - select one model that hasn't attacked, and that has that I value (if any).
3 - if a model was selected, attack with it, or, if there are no models left to select, remove the killed models and decrease the current I value by 1.
4 - if there are models left that haven't attacked, and I is higher than 0, go to 2.

So, I'd say that it goes like this.
Archon and incubi multiassault 2 units of 5 tac marines. The Archon attacks at I 7. He kills 4 marines from one unit. Are there any models left that haven't attacked and that have I 7? Nope. Move on to I 6. Attack with the Klaivex. He kills the last marines and gains the 2nd token. The effects are applied as soon as the token is acquired. Klaivex is now at I 7, Incubi at I 6. Are there any models left that haven't attacked and that have I 6? Yep, the Incubi. Attack with the incubi. Are there any models left that haven't attacked and that have I 6? Nope. Move on to I 5. Etc etc.

Obviously, weird things happen, as you alter the I values on the fly. Changes to the I value of the models that have already attacked are obviously not really relevant, but there are some considerations to do:
1 - do incubi that are killed by wyches get to attack if the Klaivex gains FC for them? I'd say that they do. My reasoning, to use an analogy, is that you pick models from a given "bucket", determined by the I value. Nothing says that you can't actually add models to your bucket while you're emptying it. The combat rules are only interested in how you remove models from the bucket, and as long as there are models in the bucket, you can't remove casualties, because the remaining attacks are simultaneous.
2 - even more trippy: assume two archons in the example unit. The first Archon strikes at I 7, destroys one unit, and gains FC for his own unit . The second Archon is immediately bumped at I 8. So...? Strictly speaking, the second archon would never satisfy the conditions required to attack, that turn.

Vetril wrote:2 - even more trippy: assume two archons in the example unit. The first Archon strikes at I 7, destroys one unit, and gains FC for his own unit . The second Archon is immediately bumped at I 8. So...? Strictly speaking, the second archon would never satisfy the conditions required to attack, that turn.

This isn't really an issue, since those Archons should be resolving their attacks simultaneously. This makes units gaining Furious Charge on their own initiative phase far less of an issue than units with an initiative value one lower. That said, you should really be using a different comparison operator. "Greater than or equal to" is a more appropriate comparison than strict equality and would handle a situation like this far more gracefully.

That said, I think the Tyrannid FAQ answers this whole debate rather soundly. I can't say I agree with it, but this is a game of rules and that means abiding by the authority that writes them.

rigeld2 wrote:Yeah, yet another ruling where Nids got shafted.

Tell me about it. (Though I can't imagine a Tyrannid player being too keen on sympathy from a Dark Eldar player...)

Let's look at another example.
10 man blood angel assault squad with an attached priest charge into Incubi, who have no pain token.

Furious charge gives the marines init 5.
Incubi are init 5.

All attacks at the same time right?
If the marines roll first, they are attacking at S5 Init5, and have feel no pain.
But if incubi go first, they could kill the priest, taking away feel no pain and furious charge from the marines, and gain feel no pain against hits from the marines.

This seems to make a huge cluster, and unless you accept that you resolve all attacks for any given initiative all at once and completely, the player who rolls dice faster literally has a significant edge in combat.


-Matt

time wizard wrote:I agree with mynamelegend on point number 4D.

The archon at initiative 7 attacked . Were there any other units at I7? No, then the Klaivex at initiative 6 attacks. This gains the unit a pain token so the Incubi are now at I6. Are there any other units at I6? Yes, the Incubi. So they now attack. After that are there any other models at I6? No, then models at I5 now attack.

Just because the klaivex attacked at I6 when it was his turn means that suddenly the "I6 'turn'" is over. There are no phases in assault. You simply attack in initiative order.

From the assault rules:
After determining the number of wounds inflicted
against a unit at a particular Initiative value, the unit
takes saves and casualties are removed as detailed
below.

The init 6 guy can't gain the pain token granting FC until the end of init 6. That's because you don't take saves until you've determined wounds inflicted at the init value.
The wound isn't resolved, and the token isn't gained until all the init 6 attacks against that unit have taken place.
By a strict RAW reading,it looks like the Incubi would gain +1 init at the end of unit 6, and then would not get to attack, as init 6 as passed.

-Matt