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So an interesting situation came up in a game the other day. I lost the roll to go first against one of my regular opponents, and he deployed his forces. I then checked Line of Sight from his side of the table to get a feel for where I could place my models to make the best of available cover. My opponent stated that I was not allowed to check Line of Sight except when firing a weapon, and was in fact not allowed to check line of Sight from his models unless HE was firing a weapon. I've seen this done multiple times and nobody has seemed to have an issue with it until now. I didn't really take a whole lot of time going about it. I walked over to his side, got a quick look at the table from his perspective at about model level, then walked back over and placed my units accordingly.

I've had a look through the book, and the only time I've seen Line of Sight mentioned is during the section on the shooting phase, but there are plenty of times other than the shooting phase where it's necessary to check Line of Sight.

So what do you think? Would you have an issue with an opponent having a quick look from your point of view before he deploys his models? Is it illegal? As always, please support any claim for the legality/illegality with relevant sections from the Rulebook.

It would be hard not to look at a table while you are playing.

This is one where the rulebook isn't explicit, but in most cases checking LOS is going to be easy or unavoidable as you move. I think it would be crazy to not allow people to check their own LOS as they move; e.g. as the squad moves into the building, the heavy weapon guy's not going to check that he has a clear line of fire? That's crazy talk.

Checking enemy LOS is a bit iffier. I've certainly encountered people who don't think a given model's LOS should be known to the enemy; this attitude seems more in keeping with a "realism" or "roleplaying" type of approach to the game. That being said, IME playing this way leads to some unfun "gotcha" moments and tends to result in more arguments and disagreements. If, as I move I can ask you "is my tank now out of LOS from that unit?", and we agree on it, we have eliminated a potential argument before it happens, and have made the play of the game smoother and more pleasant.

I'd have no problem with it whatsoever. It's perfectly reasonable for a unit to move in such a manner that it remains out of an enemy's view -- doing otherwise is suicidal.

If I know there's a sniper in the top-left window of the building to the east, I'm not going to leave a clear line between myself and that window. I should expect the same of my troops.

Mann has it right on. " the rulebook isn't explicit" it does not really say weather we are allowed to look at the table.

So since it does not give us permission to look at the table (Aside from Checking LoS when firing a weapon) then we must always play with our eyes closed, or our backs to the table.

But seriously, I agree with Mann, its inevitable to not get a sense of LoS when moving and looking at the table.

I would have no issue with doing what you did.

While this is technically a permissive rule set please look for the rules for how to deploy your army ... its missing in my book.

Here's my take on this:

LOS is a two-way street. You can either:
A. Check LOS from your side of the table, from every single possible square inch in order to determine where the best cover is located.
B. Check LOS from your opponent's side of the table, granting you the exact same knowledge and effect, in a fraction of the time, because you only have to see what his units can see.

So if your opponent wants to whine about it, then go with Option A. It is fair and legal, and there is no interpretation of any rule that says you cannot check LOS from everywhere and anywhere. However, if your opponent isn't being a about it, perhaps because he recognizes that Option A could take an hour or more, then you should always go with Option B.

Personally I can't say if it is legal or not, I can say it is up to you and your opponent to decided if you will be allowed to do that or not though.

Mannahnin wrote:That being said, IME playing this way leads to some unfun "gotcha" moments and tends to result in more arguments and disagreements.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Painstakingly moving your models and checking LoS from your unit so that you believe you're completely hidden (or at least granting a cover save) makes for a rather unpleasant shooting phase next turn if your opponent says "well I can see them, it's not my fault you didn't hide them well enough".

I really like the idea of saying "Hey, are these guys out of LoS from your Havocs?" and I think I'll try that in my next few games. Mannahnin is absolutely right, the 'gotcha' aspect, while good for the opponent, takes a bit of the fun out of the game.

With respect to the OP's situation, I think it's perfectly fair to check LoS whenever you want from your own units. Checking it from his units might be a little more iffy but I don't see a huge issue with it. We're omniscient commanders, after all, it's not supposed to be realistic. I find it very similar to the "A Note on Secrecy" rule regarding transports and their contents but YMMV.

DoW

I think you should be able to look at the table from any vantage point you feel like. However, this is a first and foremost a British game, meaning that being a gentleman and respecting the opponent's integrity comes before seeking self serving advantages. If your opponent is going to play a certain way that is more restrictive than the way you play (meaning it gives him no advantages, or even takes some away from him!), you should concede to play with the same restrictions.

It's absurd to think that you're not allowed to look at the table when you play a game. Yes, the rules only tell you to check line of sight when you're shooting (and for other specific effects), but that's not a specific enough exclusion to prevent you from exercising your normal right to look at the table.

Cheexsta wrote:It's absurd to think that you're not allowed to look at the table when you play a game. Yes, the rules only tell you to check line of sight when you're shooting (and for other specific effects), but that's not a specific enough exclusion to prevent you from exercising your normal right to look at the table.

I guess they should rephrase that rule by saying make sure the unit firing has LoS on the target. That way you could check LoS anytime but be forced to do so when shooting

The issue is while you seemingly have 'the right' many people will declare this 'slow play' and generally rude to invade your opponent's side of the table as generally most people stick to their own side except when there is an explicit action requiring them to come over.

Honestly, if you can't judge when your models are in or out of LOS from your side of the table and are fussing over millimeters then prepare to ruffle some people's feathers... Especially in a game system where all you need to be able to see is .0000000001% of your model to gain LOS...

Mannahnin wrote:This is one where the rulebook isn't explicit, but in most cases checking LOS is going to be easy or unavoidable as you move. I think it would be crazy to not allow people to check their own LOS as they move; e.g. as the squad moves into the building, the heavy weapon guy's not going to check that he has a clear line of fire? That's crazy talk.

Checking enemy LOS is a bit iffier. I've certainly encountered people who don't think a given model's LOS should be known to the enemy; this attitude seems more in keeping with a "realism" or "roleplaying" type of approach to the game. That being said, IME playing this way leads to some unfun "gotcha" moments and tends to result in more arguments and disagreements. If, as I move I can ask you "is my tank now out of LOS from that unit?", and we agree on it, we have eliminated a potential argument before it happens, and have made the play of the game smoother and more pleasant.

This is pretty much what we do. Now, we don't do this for everything (to keep some of the "surprise" in the battle) but it suffices for times when units are obviously capable of seeing enemies (or not be seen themselves).