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With the release of the new Necron codex, it didn't come to me as any surprise that the Tomb Stalker was not included. I don't play Necrons, but if I did, I'd be damn interested in using the Tomb Stalker in tourney play. In fact, there's a lot of FW models with rules that really lend themselves to the armies in question (the CSM drop pods, Eldar Shadow Spectres, etc). The worst thing about these rules is they say 'Imperial Sanction not Granted' or something to that effect, meaning that if you want to use your awesome new FW model painted to high and delicious excess to whip someone's ass at 'AB or a related GT, you're SOL. Sure, it's great to showcase these models at the LGS and use them in casual play...how not? Worse still, 'Imperial Sanction' NEVER seems to get granted. Does it?

I think it's pretty safe to say that Forge World kicks ass. So why is it some of the best models with the coolest rules in the game are excluded from the regular codices, and by extension, GT play? I'm pretty confident that most FW models and rules do nothing but make the game way more striking visually and dynamic in gameplay.

You might argue that IA rules aren't accessible for most gamers, many people don't want to spend 100 bucks on a book just so they can field a Space Shark CM. Okay, but since we're already paying top dollar for FW models, there's no really good reason a copy of those rules can't be provided for us when purchasing the model. It's a long and winding road to inaccessibility and makes a lot guys like me who would lovingly and adoringly field a Space Shark army in tourney play shake their heads in dismay and Picard facepalm. So, we can buy the models and paint them: great! But you can't use them. Not Rad.

Imperial Armour rules and the like are not permitted at Grand Tournament or 'Ard Boyz. Period. Now, for friendly games and friendly in-house tournaments, they are fine, go ahead. This thread has been posted time and time again, so let's not waste any more time whining about IA not being tournament legal...

About 50% of the models are underpointed...

About 40% of the models are right on...

About 10% of the models are horribly broken and ruin the game, especially for opponents who have never heard of them. And these are the ones that get spammed as proxies mercilessly which gives Forgeworld a bad reputation.

Simply put, they are outside the Metagame right now. If an event wishes to include them, they may, but a lot of people do not want them in events and do not want to have to deal with the shift int he metagame tourneys would have to take in order to compensate for people inevitably spamming the broken crap.

If you want to use them... simply ask your opponent. If you want to use them at a tourney, find a FW allowed tourney and attend it. Don't expect to force FW units into a regular tourney and surprise a bunch of people with units they have never seen before as you go "Ah HA! you have activated my trap card!" Yu-Gi-Oh style.

nkelsch wrote:About 10% of the models are horribly broken and ruin the game, especially for opponents who have never heard of them. And these are the ones that get spammed as proxies mercilessly which gives Forgeworld a bad reputation.

Talk about an overstatement. The models that are horribly broken are the Land Raider Achilles, Caestus Assault Ram and the Dreadnought Drop pod that lets you assault on the turn it drops. And the Achilles was in that list with its experimental rules because of how hard it was. It's nowhere near as hard as it was then in its official rules.

Their legality in 'normal' games is basically, they are 40k supplements like Planetstrike, Apocalypse, Cities of Death, etc. Just make sure your opponent knows beforehand, and in tournaments, its all up to the TO.

-Loki- wrote:

nkelsch wrote:About 10% of the models are horribly broken and ruin the game, especially for opponents who have never heard of them. And these are the ones that get spammed as proxies mercilessly which gives Forgeworld a bad reputation.

Talk about an overstatement. The models that are horribly broken are the Land Raider Achilles, Caestus Assault Ram and the Dreadnought Drop pod that lets you assault on the turn it drops. And the Achilles was in that list with its experimental rules because of how hard it was. It's nowhere near as hard as it was then in its official rules.

Their legality in 'normal' games is basically, they are 40k supplements like Planetstrike, Apocalypse, Cities of Death, etc. Just make sure your opponent knows beforehand, and in tournaments, its all up to the TO.

This. The vast majority of FW is bang on or underpriced, and lists like DKoK, and the Elysian list in IA:8 are flavourful and fun to play.

They're as legal as your codex. Which is to say, they're as legal as you can convince the person/people you're playing with they are. If they don't want you using them, you can't make them let you. If they don't want you using Mephiston, you can't make them let you.

Also, a lot of Forgeworld's stuff are classified as "super-heavy" fantastic if you play a lot of apoc, I don't, never have, I'm familiar with the rules but it's never been alluring to the group I play with. If you have a lot of money and want a gigantic collection for display purposes, go ahead and buy anything you want, but I don't see a reason to add a lot of overpowered units that cost a lot of real world money...

Squidmanlolz wrote:Also, a lot of Forgeworld's stuff are classified as "super-heavy"

This hasn't been true for a long time now. They have a few super heavies per race (with a lot in imperial guard) but the vast, vast majority of their stuff is intended for normal games.

Chrysis wrote:They're as legal as your codex. Which is to say, they're as legal as you can convince the person/people you're playing with they are. If they don't want you using them, you can't make them let you. If they don't want you using Mephiston, you can't make them let you.

So you mean all this time, I've been letting my opponents play their armies as they wanted to build them?

Spreading this kind of slowed mentality can only lead one place: disaster. Codexes are fine for all around play. Telling your opponent "no, you may not play that mini" turns one into TFG...

well yeah, I'm most familiar with playing as IG, and it seems like our stuff is either old stuff that looks different or superheavies...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Chrysis wrote:They're as legal as your codex. Which is to say, they're as legal as you can convince the person/people you're playing with they are. If they don't want you using them, you can't make them let you. If they don't want you using Mephiston, you can't make them let you.

So you mean all this time, I've been letting my opponents play their armies as they wanted to build them?

Spreading this kind of slowed mentality can only lead one place: disaster. Codexes are fine for all around play. Telling your opponent "no, you may not play that mini" turns one into TFG...

Very true, people have different views of what they consider reasonable restrictions. But when someone says that they won't let you use Forge World models because "they're not legal", they really mean they just don't want you to. You can't make them let you use them, and they don't have to play you if you insist on using them. If you can't come to an agreement, then there's no game to be had. Just like if TFG won't let you use Mephiston because "he's OP!", and you won't play without him. Most people will find objections to Forge World models reasonable, while objections to Mephiston are often not.

Chrysis wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Chrysis wrote:They're as legal as your codex. Which is to say, they're as legal as you can convince the person/people you're playing with they are. If they don't want you using them, you can't make them let you. If they don't want you using Mephiston, you can't make them let you.

So you mean all this time, I've been letting my opponents play their armies as they wanted to build them?

Spreading this kind of slowed mentality can only lead one place: disaster. Codexes are fine for all around play. Telling your opponent "no, you may not play that mini" turns one into TFG...

Very true, people have different views of what they consider reasonable restrictions. But when someone says that they won't let you use Forge World models because "they're not legal", they really mean they just don't want you to. You can't make them let you use them, and they don't have to play you if you insist on using them. If you can't come to an agreement, then there's no game to be had. Just like if TFG won't let you use Mephiston because "he's OP!", and you won't play without him. Most people will find objections to Forge World models reasonable, while objections to Mephiston are often not.

For the reason that Mephiston is a legal model for 40k games, and FW isn't.)

The vast majority of tournaments, leagues, or open gaming, whether at GW stores, LGS, or someones basement, are going to allow all legal models in games, and there is no expectation that you can't use models in your codex. A tournament that does change things up will let players know before they sign up. So it's extreemly unlikely someone would ban Mephiston.)
At the same time, the vast majority of tournaments and leagues won't let you use FW, and because of that, it's seen as reasonable. Funny how it works this way.

FW is moving towards being more accepted, simply because more players are finding out about the models, the books are now available in more stores, and Apoc opened up the field a bit. A long way to go though to be totally accepted and usable.

I would have to disagree with the release of IA2 which does states what is legal to play in regular 40k and what is not. You can't say that in a GT that isn't going to be allowed, because it up to the TO.

Yes, GW's view on Forgeworld rules is that they ARE legal. They're as legal as any other thing they produce rules for, namely that you have to discuss things with your opponent and agree on how the game is going to be played.

You can't just point at a unit and say "GW says I can use this, so you have to play me." It doesn't work like that. If your opponent doesn't want to play you if you use a Tomb Stalker/Mephiston you can't make him do so. You may find his refusal unreasonable, but that's the way it goes.

mikhaila wrote:For the reason that Mephiston is a legal model for 40k games, and FW isn't.)

The vast majority of tournaments, leagues, or open gaming, whether at GW stores, LGS, or someones basement, are going to allow all legal models in games, and there is no expectation that you can't use models in your codex. A tournament that does change things up will let players know before they sign up. So it's extreemly unlikely someone would ban Mephiston.)
At the same time, the vast majority of tournaments and leagues won't let you use FW, and because of that, it's seen as reasonable. Funny how it works this way.

FW is moving towards being more accepted, simply because more players are finding out about the models, the books are now available in more stores, and Apoc opened up the field a bit. A long way to go though to be totally accepted and usable.

You're confusing accepted and legal there. In normal games, Forgeworld units are legal in that they're a 40k supplement. They're as much 'opponents consent' as deciding to play a game of Cities of Death rather than a normal game. That's why they have the Warhammer 40,000 Supplement badge on them.

Now, whether people actually let you use them is down to the person, because again, it's a supplement, and you and your opponent need to agree to use them. Simply plonking down a FW unit won't fly with a lot of people because they really should be asked.

Not being allowed in a tournament isn't down to legality, it's merely down to the TO letting you. The TO can disallow standard codex units if he didn't want them in the tournament.

The problem with Forgeworld being accepted is people still think they're unofficial. They're not. People need to be educated on them. They should also be educated on how generally underpowered most of the stuff is, and that there's no legal way for you to sneak a super heavy into a standard game. The more people who learn this, the more people will accept a perfectly legal supplement to 40k.

Chrysis wrote:Yes, GW's view on Forgeworld rules is that they ARE legal. They're as legal as any other thing they produce rules for, namely that you have to discuss things with your opponent and agree on how the game is going to be played.

You can't just point at a unit and say "GW says I can use this, so you have to play me." It doesn't work like that. If your opponent doesn't want to play you if you use a Tomb Stalker/Mephiston you can't make him do so. You may find his refusal unreasonable, but that's the way it goes.

You're trying to force the fallacy that FW is just like everything else, and it isn't.

In what way aren't they? They're both written by GW. The only difference I can see is that the Forgeworld stuff isn't found in the codexes, making it harder to come by. That doesn't make it any less "legal", merely more reasonable to refuse to play against due to the difficulty of familiarising yourself with the rules.

-Loki- wrote:The problem with Forgeworld being accepted is people still think they're unofficial. They're not. People need to be educated on them. They should also be educated on how generally underpowered most of the stuff is, and that there's no legal way for you to sneak a super heavy into a standard game. The more people who learn this, the more people will accept a perfectly legal supplement to 40k. .

Sure, and the if all FW was suddenly legal in all tournaments would we see those overcosted units? Doubtful. We'd suddenly see lots of Achilles, Dreadpods, Kreigdrills, etc. Probably not even the FW models, just 'conversions'.

So the problem with educating people about how generally underpowered most of the stuff is, is that they are never going to see the underpowered stuff on the table, just the very good things. The more people see the overpowered stuff, the less likely FW is to be accepted.

I own thousands of dollars of FW kits, and really like the stuff. I've run tournaments that allow it. I own all the IA books and sell them in my store. I've seen FW come more in line with GW, but they are still not tied into GW, and the design studio doesn't have a lot of say in what FW makes, or it's rules. That's what holds FW back from being legal in more tournaments.

mikhaila wrote:Sure, and the if all FW was suddenly legal in all tournaments would we see those overcosted units? Doubtful. We'd suddenly see lots of Achilles, Dreadpods, Kreigdrills, etc. Probably not even the FW models, just 'conversions'.

So the problem with educating people about how generally underpowered most of the stuff is, is that they are never going to see the underpowered stuff on the table, just the very good things. The more people see the overpowered stuff, the less likely FW is to be accepted.

I own thousands of dollars of FW kits, and really like the stuff. I've run tournaments that allow it. I own all the IA books and sell them in my store. I've seen FW come more in line with GW, but they are still not tied into GW, and the design studio doesn't have a lot of say in what FW makes, or it's rules. That's what holds FW back from being legal in more tournaments.

Please stop making it about tournaments. I'm not talking about tournaments. GW could make them tournament legal and TOs would still disallow them like every other 40k supplement.

I'm talking about general games. You know, the games that make up 99.9% of the games of 40k played. Ask people about it. Their number 1 fear is someone bringing a super heavy in a 1500 point game. They have no idea it's illegal, because they've never read an IA book before and have no idea that they require the use of detachment, which in turn requires a very large game. And thus, they will simply not hear anyone out when they want to use a Sentinel Powerlifter in a regular game of 40k.

The books are published by GW. They have the FW name on them, but they're a subsidiary of GW. They have the same Warhammer 40,000 Supplement badge on them that Cities of Death, Battle Missions, Planetstrike and Apocalypse have. The books are even sold in stores now. As the 40k rulebook says, the rulebook and codices are the 'core' rules, anything else is a supplement. There's nothing, anywhere, that says IA is not official. They're not core rules, as per the rulebook. They are, however, official 40k supplements.

-Loki- wrote:

Please stop making it about tournaments. I'm not talking about tournaments. GW could make them tournament legal and TOs would still disallow them like every other 40k supplement.

um... Please read the thread title. This thread is explicitly about Grand Tourneys.

So yeah, this is about tourneys.

The big issue is the people who write the rules for the actual game don't make forge world rules. However similar, they are not designed or as tested or even part of the vision of the core rulebooks the same way the rules coming out of the studio are. We know all the codexes for the past few releases were written with 6 th edition in mind... Can the same be said about any or all of the forge world stuff? Especially since many books are editions old now.

We are talking about tourneys... And 'codex legal' is a standard most people default to, which is most tourneys default format. fW is an optional expansion.

Apologies. From the direction of the actual discussion, I thought people were simply talking about then in regular games of 40k as well, which is what I was addressing.

Though the simple fact that they're marked as a supplement is enough to disallow them from tournaments regardless of the whole legality argument and them not being from GW themselves.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Spreading this kind of slowed mentality can only lead one place: disaster. Codexes are fine for all around play. Telling your opponent "no, you may not play that mini" turns one into TFG...

Interestingly enough, up until the current edition quite a lot of players refused to play against armies that had special characters in them... and very few people complained about them being 'TFG' for it. Hell, some gamers still refuse to play against lists with special characters in them.

I've also played in gaming groups that refused to allow certain army builds (the infamous 2nd edition Space Wolf army comprised solely of Terminators each equipped with Cyclone Launchers and Assault Cannons was banned for all non-tournament games at one of the clubs I used to play at) and not played against certain gamers because they didn't want to play against whichever army that I had happened to bring along that day (or vice versa).

You're perfectly within your rights to play the game the way you want to play it, and wanting to do so doesn't make you 'TFG'... it simply makes you someone who wants to play the game a certain way. If that way is too far from the norm. it's certainly possible that it will also make you someone who doesn't get to play very often... But not automatically 'TFG'.

The latest Imperial Armour Apocalypse book contains an icon next to every unit to indicate whether it's an Apocalypse unit or a Codex legal unit, even going so far as to say what part of the FOC it occupies. Hopefully all FW books will do this as we move forward.

And aside from all that, refusing to play against someone who has a FW unit or two in their army is just plain silly. If they haven't got the rules with them, or are attempting to proxy something for something else, then I could see a bigger issue, but if they've shown up with a Bombard or an Eldar Hornet or a Chaos Spined Beast, and have the relevant book that contains those rules - why stop them?

nkelsch wrote:

About 10% of the models are horribly broken and ruin the game, especially for opponents who have never heard of them. And these are the ones that get spammed as proxies mercilessly which gives Forgeworld a bad reputation.

Hrm, maybe 3-5 models really, probably more like 1 or 2, and they're no worse than some of the sillyness we have out there now in normal codex books like Purifiers, Long Fangs, Psyrifleman dreads, etc.

If you want to use them... simply ask your opponent. If you want to use them at a tourney, find a FW allowed tourney and attend it. Don't expect to force FW units into a regular tourney and surprise a bunch of people with units they have never seen before as you go "Ah HA! you have activated my trap card!" Yu-Gi-Oh style.

You mean like any new codex (especially Mat Ward codex's)

SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Telling your opponent "no, you may not play that mini" turns one into TFG...

Hence why FW shouldn't be any more of an issue than codex units


Most tournaments don't allow FW stuff because they don't want to deal with more rules and units to keep track of, and they don't want to deal with all the bitching and moaning from the "zomgcodexonly!" group that invariably erupts. It helps keep the events simpler. That said, Tournaments != normal play, they are their own thing outside of normal 40k play. The problem is that many people think that GT legality determines normal play legality, which is not true at all.

mikhaila wrote:
Sure, and the if all FW was suddenly legal in all tournaments would we see those overcosted units? Doubtful. We'd suddenly see lots of Achilles, Dreadpods, Kreigdrills, etc. Probably not even the FW models, just 'conversions'.

And? Just like how we see lots of psyfle dreads, razorspam, whatever else.

Good/efficient units will be taken. Simple as that.

Anyway:
As of the latest addition, Apocalypse Second Edition, I treat all FW stuff marked with the 40k symbol as "legal." Even in GW stores here though, they are still not generally accepted. Heck, I was even told that we're not even allowed to use them at the local GW store outside of "veterans nights," because the store manager thinks "it may confuse new players."

Kouzuki wrote:
Heck, I was even told that we're not even allowed to use them at the local GW store outside of "veterans nights," because the store manager thinks "it may confuse new players."

And this is why I'm so glad I don't have to deal with GW stores. Only in bizzaro business universe is "let's kill sales of our specialist line because new customers might see it and ask questions!" better than "lets make sure our specialist range is supported and integrated to increase sales and pique the interest of new customers!"

Vaktathi wrote: That said, Tournaments != normal play, they are their own thing outside of normal 40k play. The problem is that many people think that GT legality determines normal play legality, which is not true at all.

Hoooray! Someone trying to claim the moral highground by defining 'normal play' as the way he wants everything to be played! And because he wants Forgeworld he defines it to include FW! Yay Moral Highground!

For many groups, their normal play is going to be whatever GT they are preparing for. 'Normal play' is whatever two people choose to play.

They aren't allowed for tourney play because of how complicated things will get. If you say that all units from IA books are allowed, players will need to craft lists with that in mind.

Personally, whenever I try to run an event(always fall through it seems) I allow them with approval first. If you can show me the rules and make a case as to why you should be allowed to run it, I will let you. Usually, that case is 'I bought this awesome model and painted it up' but some things do require a bit more persuading depending on the specifics of the event, but that is because they all have very specific things happening on the table that FW could change the balance of.

In casual play, I can only think of a couple instances when you should say 'no': trying a tourney list, hankerin' for a game against that list over there, or you came to play a specific person. Other than that, they should be allowed in.

-cgmckenzie

nkelsch wrote:

Hoooray! Someone trying to claim the moral highground by defining 'normal play' as the way he wants everything to be played! And because he wants Forgeworld he defines it to include FW! Yay Moral Highground!

I'm using exactly what GW and the design studio has stated themselves, that being that Tournament play is separate and distinct from normal pickup play (e.g. any army/unit/rules designed to be used with the normal rulebook missions)

For many groups, their normal play is going to be whatever GT they are preparing for.

In which case they're playing GT rules outside a GT. One will notice that quite often, especially up until that last few years, that there was a rather large lack of consistency in terms of GT play. For instance, 2006 UK GT's were 1500pts and didn't allow anything but basic codex books, while US GT's were 1750 or 1850 and allowed Eye of Terror and Chapter Approved lists like IG Armored Companies and Feral Orks.

So Vaktathi, if you want to say that the rules let you play forgeworld, what about the most important rule? If your opponent wants to play with the core rule book and an army codex, and you bring a rulebook tangentially related to the codex (and its not exactly cheap to get those FW books) are you not playing with more stuff than the normal codex allows? To me, its similar to playing with an old army codex. Sure, it was made by GW, but its certainly implied that you will play with the most recent book.