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Hello there! I need help with improving my list for 1500 tourney, but really dont know what to change. I guess I have little antitank power, but what should I change in order to have more? Maybe I should get some Heralds of Tzeentch with chariots + bolt of tzeentch, instead of fateweaver/bloodthirster? Here's the list:

HQ

Fateweaver - 333

Bloodthirster - 250

Elite

x3 Bloodcrushers of Khorne - 155
-Fury of Khorne
-Chaos Icon

Troops

x5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle - 75
-Feel no Pain

x10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 185
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Changeling

x10 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 180
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Heavy Support

Daemon Prince of Chaos - 160
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Unholy Might

Daemon Prince of Chaos - 160
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Unholy Might

It makes total of 1498 pts. What should I change? Looking forward to your suggestions!
Thanks!
~Ancilorn

Personally, I would take out the bloodthirster unless you just love him to include another squad of bloodcrushers and split the horrors squads into squads of 5 with bolts to give you a couple more bolts and then you still have a few points to play with for maybe some flamers or giving either wings or iron hide to your demon princes or actually, sorry about this typing I would drop one of the demon princes to split the squads into 5 with bolts and then buy another squad of bloodcrushers, that would be my suggestion. Anyway good luck!

Lose Might from the Princes imo, they are more shooting platforms than assault units in this configuration, especially given their speed.


You have a lot of points sunk into MC, I would probably lose the PB's and split the horrors to give you 4 troop choices. This frees up enough points for one more BC with an Instrument to give you a bit more hitting power in that unit.

HQ

Fateweaver - 333

Bloodthirster - 250

Elite

x4 Bloodcrushers of Khorne - 200
-Fury of Khorne
-Chaos Icon
-Instrument of Chaos

Troops

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 100
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Changeling

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 95
-Bolt of Tzeentch

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 95
-Bolt of Tzeentch

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 95
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Heavy Support

Daemon Prince of Chaos - 160
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Unholy Might

Daemon Prince of Chaos - 160
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Unholy Might


1488 PTS. How does it looks now?

I still like Gaze on them more than Might, but that is probably more a 'season to taste' thing and I have heard people argue for both.

Otherwise give it a run and see what you think. I would drop in everything but the Horrors in your primary wave.

I'd drop the thirster.
Granted he is a beast, but point for point, i wouldnt have him.
Too much of a fire magnet IMO.

I would drop him and take skulltaker on a jugger.
With the remaining points boost your crushers.
Its amazing what damage skulltaker can throw out, and the chance of instant death against a MC is pretty good.

Wouldnt be the 1st time ive taken out a trygon or a fex with him.
Also pretty good against lone IC's that lack EW.

There are two rules with bloodthirsters.

#1 - Unholy might is a standard upgrade. Pay no attention to the fact that the codex allows you to forgo it. Being base S8 means that you instakill T4 even if its not on the charge, which is huge.

#2 - In an era of Grey Knights, Blessing of the Blood God is required. 5 pts to get a 2++ save against Grey Knights in assault is silly good.

I think you could also get rid of the bloodthirster to take another squad of bloodcrushers and put iron hide on your demon princes. Or skull taker, I love the skull taker

You have seven bolts in this army and two fast MCs to pop armor which is great. I'd say get rid of one of those daemon princes and get five fiends instead. Everything in your army is slow and soon enough the Fateweaver and Bloodthirster will leave your other units behind (unless you want to move them at infantry speed which is dumb.) The fiends can still be anti-tank PLUS they are fast enough to keep up with your BT and FW if need be. Six bolts is good enough at 1500 points. I just believe the fiends will serve you better as a more diverse unit than that second daemon prince.

here are two rules with bloodthirsters.

#1 - Unholy might is a standard upgrade. Pay no attention to the fact that the codex allows you to forgo it. Being base S8 means that you instakill T4 even if its not on the charge, which is huge.

#2 - In an era of Grey Knights, Blessing of the Blood God is required. 5 pts to get a 2++ save against Grey Knights in assault is silly good.

I want to emphasize that as well.

Sadly I would also drop the BT at this point level. Not only could you use the points for a different hq but you can use some fiends for either tank or troop killing. The choice of what to use is up to you, Skulltaker can be a fun and effective choice. What I see as a major problem for the list is the inherent weakness of Fateweaver as he has to cover a crap ton of area for rerolls.

HQ

Fateweaver - 333

Skulltaker on Juggernaut - 175

Elite

x9 Bloodcrushers of Khorne - 400
-Fury of Khorne
-Chaos Icon
-Instrument of Chaos

Troops

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 100
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Changeling

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 95
-Bolt of Tzeentch

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 95
-Bolt of Tzeentch

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 95
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Heavy Support

Daemon Prince of Chaos - 190
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Unholy Might
-Iron Hide

Daemon Prince of Chaos - 190
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Unholy Might
-Iron Hide

Thats total of 1498 pts. How is it now?

Having 9 Bloodcrushers in a single unit is a huuuuuge footprint when you DS. With no other icon in the army, mishaping sounds pretty likely. I'd split them into 2x4 with full upgrades. That gives you a smaller footprint, a for sure icon in both waves (if you split like that), and a lot more useful wound allocation then having 5 standard crushers kitted the same.

I'm a fan of the BloodThirster. Yeah, he's a fire magnet, but that's kinda the point. If he's getting shot at nothing else is, and with Fateweaver he's got a pretty good survival chance. If you wanted to field him you'd probably have to drop down to 6 crushers or trade pink horrors for plaguebearers. Might be changing your list too much, so if you want that many crushers stick with Skulltaker.

You can only take bloodcrushers in a squad of 8. And pay no attention to anyone who tells you that the footprint is a worry...I used an 8-man squad consistently for three years, and mishapped with them once.

8 Bloodcrushers beats 2 squads of 4 hands down.
Their main problem, though, is that they're so slow.

Here's my suggestions.

Ditch the Bloodthirster and take 2 squads of 4 bloodcrushers. Throw Skulltaker in the mix if you can afford him, he's fun and killy. Basically what you want is to max out the gear they can take to abuse the wound allocation rules to your advantage, so you should have an instrument, icon and the other in each squad. If you follow Centurian99's advice, you will statistically die faster, there's no two ways about it.

Centurian99 wrote:8 Bloodcrushers beats 2 squads of 4 hands down.

Sorry this is wrong.

You will want to group Fateweaver and these two squads together. They should always be within 6 inches of each other, Fateweaver should not "leave them behind" as someone else suggested.

For your Demon Princes. Mark of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery and Bolt of Tzeentch. With no secondary spells, you can shoot the bolt twice every turn with each prince. They don't need the wings unless you want to have them fly around and punch tanks too. Unnecessary but up to you.

Horrors are great, take more if you can. These things are awesome. 3 shots each and a bolt for 10 points. They chew up MEQ and 4+ invulnerable gives them the survivability you need. For the points these are the best troops in the DoC army, imho. Take a couple of icons so you can drop the crushers and fateweaver where you want though, they have a huge footprint so this can help avoid mishaps. Personally, I refuse to take icons, the randomness is what makes DoC a fun army to play!

Another HQ option to consider. Take a pair of Tzeentch Heralds, throw them on Chariots. They become a 5 wound rolling gunship. Master of Sorcery and We are Legion means these guys can shoot tanks and harass infantry units and they move like Jetbikes. Seriously +3 wounds and +1 toughness for the points cost, how can you say no? I couldn't...

Tronzor wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:8 Bloodcrushers beats 2 squads of 4 hands down.

Sorry this is wrong.

Really? Guess I've been doing it wrong, then.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Your list lacks the sheer scare factor of a daemon list. Yes, a 8 man squad of bloodcrushers will destroy anything it touches. But it will be countered by an intelligent player. Your princes will get torrented down, at 190 points they are very expensive for bolt platforms. Cut the hide, it doesnt do that much, 3+ to a 4+ for 30 points will give you 60 points, then drop a 5 man squad of horros, add in 5 fiends. Now you have a unit with a huge threat range, divide your 8 crushers into 2 squads. Peronally, I find the risk of throwing all of your bloodcrushers in one wave is scary. Putting one in each wave is much more reassuring that you will have an anchor on the board to drop off of. Otherwise, 3 squads of horro sis good, fatey is good.

Thirster is always great, if you have the points use him. If not, skulltaker will destroy any IC in the game, especially psykers. Just be weary of melee dreads assaulting your crushers, it will be GG for them. So bolt dreads down lol, if they die up your crushers and torrent your princes, you lose.

It is a strong shooty daemon list, not what I run. But it will work if you play it correctly.

Tronzor wrote:For your Demon Princes. Mark of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery and Bolt of Tzeentch. With no secondary spells, you can shoot the bolt twice every turn with each prince. They don't need the wings unless you want to have them fly around and punch tanks too. Unnecessary but up to you.

This is patently false. You can shoot 2 ranged weapons with a DP because they are a Monstrous Creature. You CANNOT shoot the same weapon (Bolt of Tzeetch) twice. MoS allows you to shoot 3 times with a DP, no need to do that.

Tronzor wrote:Take a couple of icons so you can drop the crushers and fateweaver where you want though, they have a huge footprint so this can help avoid mishaps. Personally, I refuse to take icons, the randomness is what makes DoC a fun army to play!

You will only get use out of icons for Fate or the BC 1/3 of the time since they should be in the first wave. One icon in the secondary wave is okay, I use one on a low value unit to force my opponent into more difficult shooting decisions.

Centurian99 wrote:

Tronzor wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:8 Bloodcrushers beats 2 squads of 4 hands down.

Sorry this is wrong.

Really? Guess I've been doing it wrong, then.

Not that your way is wrong, but in tournament play, this should allow you to absorb more damage because you can spread the wounds around more, rather than taking full models off faster.

calypso2ts wrote: This is patently false. You can shoot 2 ranged weapons with a DP because they are a Monstrous Creature. You CANNOT shoot the same weapon (Bolt of Tzeetch) twice. MoS allows you to shoot 3 times with a DP, no need to do that.

You're correct, my mistake.

calypso2ts wrote: You will only get use out of icons for Fate or the BC 1/3 of the time since they should be in the first wave. One icon in the secondary wave is okay, I use one on a low value unit to force my opponent into more difficult shooting decisions.

This is a difference in tactics I guess and it was meerly a suggestion. As I said, I don't play with icons myself, except when needed for wound allocation stuff.

I think Fateweaver, Bloodthirster and 2 squads of Bloodcrushers is going to make a very tough brick of pain rolling down the centre of the table. You don't have the same threat range as a bunch of Fiends, but you've got the high toughness and multiple saving throws that should help mitigate a lot of the damage while you get into position. Either way, looks like you've got lots of good opinions here so good luck!

Tronzor wrote:

calypso2ts wrote: You will only get use out of icons for Fate or the BC 1/3 of the time since they should be in the first wave. One icon in the secondary wave is okay, I use one on a low value unit to force my opponent into more difficult shooting decisions.

This is a difference in tactics I guess and it was meerly a suggestion. As I said, I don't play with icons myself, except when needed for wound allocation stuff.

I think Fateweaver, Bloodthirster and 2 squads of Bloodcrushers is going to make a very tough brick of pain rolling down the centre of the table. You don't have the same threat range as a bunch of Fiends, but you've got the high toughness and multiple saving throws that should help mitigate a lot of the damage while you get into position. Either way, looks like you've got lots of good opinions here so good luck!

I do not think I communicated clearly. I agree with you on the tough BC/Fate/Thirster brick. What I mean is you cannot deepstrike off icons on the first turn at all. This means that if you put fate/bc/thirster in the primary wave (which you should!), they will always scatter and icons cannot benefit you at all (for the first wave).

Tronzor wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

Tronzor wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:8 Bloodcrushers beats 2 squads of 4 hands down.

Sorry this is wrong.

Really? Guess I've been doing it wrong, then.

Not that your way is wrong, but in tournament play, this should allow you to absorb more damage because you can spread the wounds around more, rather than taking full models off faster.

I guess I have been gone a while. I know a little bit about tournament play.

I've been playing Daemons in tournaments almost exclusively since they've come out. And what I've found is quite simple. 8 bloodcrushers is simply better than 2x4. True, the wound allocation is better on 2x4, but that assumes a level of statistical perfection that's simply impossible to achieve. The simple fact is that with only four models, its far more likely that you'll be doubling up wounds on models. Once that happens, a certain percentage of those saves will be failed. The problem is you can't predict which models will fail which saves. Since the dice have no memory, they don't care that you just failed a save with that model, and that the other three are unwounded. Or they don't care that you just allocated three wounds to each, so that statistically each will only fail one save (or whatever).

Now, here's the flip side.

Point #1 - Four bloodcrushers tear apart a lot of things, even if they get charged. But three bloodcrushers...still pretty good. Two...not so much. And one is well-nigh useless. With bloodcrushers, they're so slow that you have to drop them close. If they're close enough that they'll be able to get into assault, they're close enough that the enemy can assault them first, after thinning their numbers down. With two squads of four, the counter is simple. Peel a couple models off one squad through volume of fire, then charge in and finish them off. Difficult, but doable, for most armies out there. Now there's only one 4-man squad of crushers left...which will probably eat one of your units. Then you just repeat it, and take the second squad down.

With a squad of 8...there's pretty much no way to take it out in one turn of shooting, short of being some ridiculously tooled-up guard army that's built with killing off 8 bloodcrushers in a single turn in mind (massed plasma guns, lots of LR Executioners, etc.) Even 15 long fangs can't do it. At best, they kill half the squad. More likely, they kill 1-3 models. That leaves 5 or 6 still alive, and in prime position to strike (because generally if the enemy is shooting at maximum effect, they're within 12" and so can be assaulted).

Point #2 - 4 Crushers need fateweaver in order to survive. That means they all have to drop reasonably close to each other.

Point #3 - Fateweaver has to drop first. He's simply too expensive, and too vital to your battleplan, to risk mishapping with him more than absolutely necessary. That means he drops at minimum 13" away from any enemy units, and 12" away from any impassable terrain. Now you've got two squads of 4 bloodcrushers, who need to not only try to drop within range of Fateweaver...but also need to drop close enough to the enemy to be able to threaten them in one turn. That means that geometrically, there's a very limited number of places that they can drop. Beause you also don't want to risk throwing them away unnecessarilly, but you have to take risks because of geometry.

Somewhat counter-intuitively, its much easier to drop 8 bloodcrushers, and do so in a manner that gets them reasonably close to Fateweaver as well as to the enemy you want them charging as quickly as possible. Because they're on 60mm bases (about 3", give or take) the first model's going to drop a moderately safe distance (you'll be a bit limited, but you don't want to unnecessarily risk a 360 pt squad either). So you probably drop them something like 12" away from Fateweaver. (the chances of scattering 9+" in the exact right direction are generally worth the risk. Now after the first model scatters...you then start placing the rest of the squad. 8 models seems like a huge footprint...but there are still some tricks you can play. And the geometry says that the farthest model on the outer circle is going to be 6" away from the initial model. This means you're 6" closer to the enemy...or if the scatter is away from fateweaver, you're 6" closer to fateweaver.

Point #4 - now especially since we're talking about tournament play...there's one more factor you need to consider. And that's this...in 1/3 of your games, fateweaver and the bloodcrushers start in reserve. that means that there's good chance that bloodcrushers are coming in before fateweaver, or at different times. If fateweaver comes in first without bloodcrushers, any smart opponent is going to immediately prioritize killing him. And chances are...they can probably do it, unless you drop him somewhere out of the way. You do that...then your bloodcrushers either drop near him, and do...nothing, or they drop away from him, and those 4 models die really quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, I think fateweaver at 1500 is a really bad idea.

What point level do you think fateweaver will be good at?

sudojoe wrote:What point level do you think fateweaver will be good at?

He's good at any points level. But in the middle ranges...he's also bad.

In small games, he takes up an ungodly percentage of your army...but your opponent can do much less to counter him, and fateweaver's effect at preserving your own forces becomes magnified significantly. At larger points value, your opponent has more guns and such...but also has to worry about a multitude of other units that you've got.

In middle range, there's not enough points to create a whole lot of other threats to complement fateweaver...but your opponent has more guns and such.

Fateweaver's such a point failure source for your army that he's an obvious target, and if he goes down, or isn't nearby to provide support, the rest of your army is significantly weakened. So you have to keep him nearby to get the re-rolls, or you get attritted to death. What that means is that your army moves at the speed of its slowest model. It also means that in the 1/3 of the time that he doesn't arrive on turn 1, your secondary is screwed, and if he's delayed until turn 3 or 4, anything that comes in before he does is screwed as well.

Does that make sense?

HQ

Herald of Tzeentch
-Chariot of Tzeentch

Herald of Tzeentch
-Chariot of Tzeentch

Elite

x5 Fiends of Slaanesh
-Unholy Might

x8 Bloodcrushers of Khorne
-Fury of Khorne
-Chaos Icon
-Instrument of Chaos

Troops

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 100
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Changeling

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 95
-Bolt of Tzeentch

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 95
-Bolt of Tzeentch

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 95
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Heavy Support

Daemon Prince of Chaos
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Master of Sorcery


Daemon Prince of Chaos
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Master of Sorcery

Daemon Prince of Chaos
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Master of Sorcery


Thats 1485 pts. How does it looks now?

1) Master of sorcery on the princes doesn't do you any good. You've only got one shooting weapon (bolt) and MC's can fire 2/turn anyways. You really should scrounge the points to equip all of the princes with daemonic gaze instead.

2) Conversely, the the chariots have nothing but gaze. while it keeps them cheap, you want to upgrade them to carry master of sorcery and another power (probably bolt, but breath has something going for it as well).

3) I think you're going to find the weakest part of this build so far is the fiends. I love fiends, but they're the one unit that doesn't really fit in the army. Everything else is shooting, and the bloodcrushers are an immense threat that's tough to kill. 5 Fiends, on their own...really aren't too much of a threat, and your army really can't support them if they're striking too far afield.

HQ

Herald of Tzeentch
-Chariot of Tzeentch
-Master of Sorcery
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Herald of Tzeentch
-Chariot of Tzeentch
-Master of Sorcery
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Elite

x8 Bloodcrushers of Khorne
-Fury of Khorne
-Chaos Icon
-Instrument of Chaos

Troops

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 100
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Changeling

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 95
-Bolt of Tzeentch

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 95
-Bolt of Tzeentch

x5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 95
-Bolt of Tzeentch

Heavy Support

Daemon Prince of Chaos
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Daemonic Gaze

Daemon Prince of Chaos
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Daemonic Gaze

Daemon Prince of Chaos
-Bolt of Tzeentch
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Daemonic Gaze

Without fiends theres free 80 pts. Where should I invest 'em?