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Quick question for you learned folks regarding eldar Phoenix lords and the squads they join.

It says that they may not join any aspect squad other than their own, which is fine. If however, they join a unit of harlequins, do they benefit from their exarch powers? My read of the rules says yes, as the parts about exarch powers in the unit entry speaks only of the unit the exarch/character is in, not the aspect specifically. So by that logic, why can they not join a unit of harlies, which are not aspect warriors, and give them useful stuff like counter attack and infiltrate?

Have I missed something here- it seems a little too good to be true?

Yeah, I think you can do that. People are always on about joining them to squads of Storm Guardians etc, I think it's just other aspects.

No they do not. The Exarch powers only affect aspect warriors. It's in the Eldar FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Q. As Phoenix Lords are not Exarchs, but independent
characters, do their exarch powers (Shadowstrike,
Skyleap, etc.) affect units other than Aspect Warriors?
A. Their powers only affects units of Aspect Warriors.

It's actually in the codex, in the Exarch Powers section on page 21.

So yes, Phoenix Lords can join non-Aspect units. But those units do not benefit from the Lord's Exarch powers.

Do note, however, that certain Exarch powers only affect the Exarch. And Karandras does give Stealth to any unit he joins.

They may join the unit, but the powers of the PL are exarch powers which do not effect anything other then their aspect.

Yes, Phoenix Lords are indeed that terrible.

Sigh. Didn't think it would be that easy. Sorry folks!

Happyjew wrote:Do note, however, that certain Exarch powers only affect the Exarch. And Karandras does give Stealth to any unit he joins.

Not quite. He gives Stealth to units of Striking Scorpions that he joins. Other units wouldn't gain the rule themselves, just benefit from his Steallth.

It amounts to practically the same thing, though. It would only be an issue if something specifically affects a model with the Stealth rule.

Karandras is the only Phoenix Lord that's at all playable. With a unit of Scorpions he is a relatively decent outflanking threat, albeit for a huge number of points.

Also, he does in fact give Stealth to any unit he joins so that's kinda nice.

Aldarionn wrote:Karandras is the only Phoenix Lord that's at all playable. With a unit of Scorpions he is a relatively decent outflanking threat, albeit for a huge number of points.

Also, he does in fact give Stealth to any unit he joins so that's kinda nice.

Jain Zar?

Aldarionn wrote:Also, he does in fact give Stealth to any unit he joins so that's kinda nice.

Codex: Eldar wrote:...He has the Stealth special rule (this ability is conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins.

He only actually confers the rule on other Striking Scorpions. Other units gain the benefit of the improved cover save (as clariified in the rulebook FAQ), but do not themselves have Stealth.

Straying off topic from the original post.

All the Phoenix Lords are "playable", but horrifically overcosted for their beneift.

Ask any player if they would rather take Eldrad, 2 Farseers, a Farseer and Autauch, or a single Phoenix lord... and you'll have your answer to how good they are.

It's true, I'd take Eldrad over a Pheonix Lord any day, but that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy using Jain Zar when I have the chance, although these chances generally come in experimental games.

BlueDagger wrote:Straying off topic from the original post.

All the Phoenix Lords are "playable", but horrifically overcosted for their beneift.

Ask any player if they would rather take Eldrad, 2 Farseers, a Farseer and Autauch, or a single Phoenix lord... and you'll have your answer to how good they are.

That's true, but I'd take one as a counter to the (in some opinions) excessive anti-psyker that abounds in 5th edition codexes. Maugan Ra is very effective alone as well as joined with Harlequins or Storm Guardians. Baharroth is pretty nice in a Hawk-themed list. Neither is OMG awesome and all the Phoenix Lords are overcosted, nice stats and fun "bonus" abilities and wargear don't leave them unplayable.

Aldarionn wrote:Karandras is the only Phoenix Lord that's at all playable. With a unit of Scorpions he is a relatively decent outflanking threat, albeit for a huge number of points.

Also, he does in fact give Stealth to any unit he joins so that's kinda nice.

Page 56 under Karandaras' entry states only Striking Scorpions will benefit from his Stealth ability.

Not that I advocate this is a good combo, but Exarch abilities are also conferred to Autarchs ( per page 21 with some exceptions as indicated within the Exarch power description). It had me thinking about Fuegan having Tank Hunter and placing him inside a unit of Harlequins. If you put Yriel in the same squad (who is a an Autarch), would he then get the Tank Hunter bonus?

As for the OP, no the exarch powers are not shared with none aspect warriors.

On to the topic of Karandaras his stealth ability dos not state it is 'only' shared with striking scorpions.

First some history, the current Eldar book was written for 4th edition, in 4th edition Stealth was not shared between ICs and Units they attached to. In 5th edition it is now shared.

As the Stealth USR in the BGB is shared automatically it would take a rule in a codex to state that it is either only shared with certain units or not at all.

In closing Karandaras Stealth ability is shared with any unit he joins and is "conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions" he joins.

Yes, the unit shares the effect of Stealth... but they don't gain the rule. They just benefit from it. Only Scorpions actually gain Stealth by having Karandra join them.

Isnt there another FAQ question stating that plords must join their aspect? I tried to tell my eldar playing friend a while ago to try this, but was told that per the FAQ this is not allowed.

Only Phoenix Lord remotely worth their points is Maugan Ra and he is still overcosted. Hopefully if Eldar get a 5th edition codex they will get even a small points cost decrease. Phoenix Lords may only join an Aspect squad of their own Aspect, Guardians, Rangers, Harlequins and Wraithguard are not Aspects.

CrashCanuck wrote: Phoenix Lords may only join an Aspect squad of their own Aspect, Guardians, Rangers, Harlequins and Wraithguard are not Aspects.

To be a little clearer, Phoenix Lords are prohibited from joining Aspect Warriors squads from different Aspects. There is no such restriction on them joining units that are not comprised of Aspect Warriors.

I've yet to use any Phoenix Lord, but as soon as I get some more Wraithguard I definately wanna try the 10 wraithguard, warlock with conceal, Karandras, and Eldrad combo.

insaniak wrote:Yes, the unit shares the effect of Stealth... but they don't gain the rule. They just benefit from it. Only Scorpions actually gain Stealth by having Karandra join them.

Is this based off of the Rulebook FAQ? I had forgotten about that ruling when I originally posted.

If so, this could make for an interesting combination utilizing Wraithguard.

Sarigar wrote:Is this based off of the Rulebook FAQ?

It's based off the wording of the Stealth USR. The FAQ simply clarifies that it does indeed work that way, for those who wanted such clarification.

Interesting. I'm still unsure which would take precedence: Stealth USR or Karandaras' rule stating he confers Stealth to any Striking Scorpion unit he joins. It may be in the realm of GW intent, which we can't claim with certainty (and even their own FAQs have ruled towards their 'intent' over RAW on occasion).

Karandaras in a 10 strong Wraithguard unit could be quite interesting. Conceal + Fortune would give Wraithguard a 4+ cover save with rerolls while standing in the open?

Irrelevant. The unit does not gain the Stealth USR, but it doesnt need to in order to benefit from a single model in the unit having "stealth"

Look at the USR, note that if someone has the USR the whole unit benefits from it.

I'm mainly curious.

After reading the various rules pertaining to this, I concur that Karandaras/Wraithguard/Stealth is legal.

This edition and GW FAQs have really surprised me as they have been a bit more liberal in their rulings than many years past, in my opinion. It's been quite difficult to ascertain how GW will rule on things and honestly, I don't think many Eldar players have considered this as an option; even those who regularly run Wraithguard.

The reason you don't see Karandaras used is because of several reasons....

1. Wraithguard don't need the help of stealth as they are tough as nails with the help of Fortune. Generally people just ignore my Wraithguard as their threat bubble is rather small and can be dealt with at a later time.
2. While he has a whole lot of PF attacks he has no ++X save to keep him alive past the first round...
3. Eldar players don't like building a 750+ point unit that doesn't kill much in either shooting or CC, and that will fall to a hidden PF in a few turns.

The preferred 750+ points Eldar unit is the Jetseer Council, 1 Farseer and 10 Warlocks all on bikes.