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So, a few related questions, here.

First, the objective one: do you know of any fluff for the Astral Claws outside of: Codex: CSM; Into the Maelstrom; the IA Badab War books?

Second, I'm looking at doing an Astral Claws/Red Corsairs army with a bit of a twist, and was wondering what people thought:

Basically, the typical Astral Claws story goes (in a very simplified form): Decently well-known chapter gets assigned to the Maelstrom as head of the Maelstrom Warders (fighting off human/ork/dark eldar pirates, primarily)--> Huron takes over for the old chapter master (after he dies)--> Huron starts structuring the area like the old Legions--> the Astral Claws get pissed off (mostly due to lack of imperial support and resentment being forced in to guard duty)--> the Maelstrom Warders collectively secede--> the Imperium retaliates--> the other secessionists eventually jump ship/turn on them/are defeated, and the Astral Claws mark their armor red, referring to broken blood-pacts (esp. w/ Executioners)--> eventually Huron is mangled but alive, the remaining Astral Claws retreat into the Maelstrom--> [??????]--> the Astral Claws become Chaos-worshiping pirates.

So, my thoughts were essentially, why would an army full of history and pride (in tradition, themselves, etc.) switch to piracy?
reasons for piracy:
-like taking the initiative (vs. resentment at guard duty)
-limited resources
-literary irony?

So, this all seems very temporary: once they got up to reasonable strength, it seems like the Astral Claws would begin to rebuild, with a twisted form of their old empire, however they want, now.

I also don't see why they'd obscure their old heraldry? The whole chapter was brought down by pride, why wouldn't they want to show off their old colors?

Basically, what this would mean is, I'd be using converted (Imperial) Marines for the bulk of the army, including cult troops and possessed, though, probably using more chaos bits for a few areas (champions, chosen, etc.)


Third, I'm thinking about how I'd represent this on the field--
are there any chaos gods which don't seem like the sort the Astral Claws would worship? Khorne (martial pride) seems likely, and maybe tzeentch (strategies w/in strategies, and as a possible implied patron from the fluff), but not sure about the other two.

For special characters, I was thinking Abbadon to represent Huron in larger games, as I don't really think that the normal version of Huron (in power armor) does a very good job representing the terminator-armored version from the Badab War, and frankly seems pretty uninteresting and overpriced It seems like Fabius Bile could represent either the Astral Claws' master of the forge (who seemed to be responsible for their gene-seed workings) or their master apothecary (who seemed responsible for harvesting gene-seeds). Any others that would fit, and how well do you think the above fit?

In larger games, I was thinking of incorporating IG as traitors (unless, of course, the Lost and the Damned sees new life in the new Chaos codex), since the Astral Claws liked the old model of the Legion, with IG support.



So, any thoughts? What works, or doesn't? Any suggestions you would add?

It sounds like you have a pretty solid plan for them, I would have no problem with you using Abbadon as Huron (thematicall) for larger scale battles (paint him the same colours and call him Huron) so long as on paper he is still Abaddon. As for why the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs turned to piracy, I believe it was to retaliate against the Imperium as quickly as possible and because Huron lost his mind.

As far as I know the remaining Astral Claws turned to piracy because they were down to under 200 battle-brothers after the Siege of Badab. All of the infrastructure that is required to maintain a fighting force such as a Space Marine Chapter was gone, crushed under the Imperium. Besides, they were hunted at every turn by the Imperium and needed to disappear as fast as possible.
As far as I understand it from Aaron Dembski-Bowden's "Blood Reaver" which takes place around the Maelstrom Zone, the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs have a seizable fleet, having subdued quite a few of the local pirate lords after their escape, but still not anywhere near enough ships and Astartes warriors to reclaim their former dominion. This is why Huron is so obsessed with obtaining geneseed. Remember that after the alliance of the maelstrom wardens were broken, new chapters were set up to defend the region against piracy and xenos incursions.

According to IA 10 they painted their old heraldry over in the later stages of the Badab War, as they wanted to throw off the last shackles of the Imperium.

I don't think the Red Corsairs worship any specific gods, but just the pantheon of Chaos itself. But maybe a few units have turned towards separate gods, being exposed to the warp and free of the oppressive Imperium the mind is free, you know

For rules I think you should take the Tyrants Legion-list in IA 9 for a spin. It could easily be used as both a pre-Badab War army and a Red Corsair piracy list. It also contains rules for the Astral Claws Master of the Forge and Huron himself, plus a separate Apothecary unit.
Other than that, I think you're looking good.

The Stral Claws turned Chaos Worshipping before they painted their armor redd

thanks for the comments,

CrashCanuck-- I always forget that Huron goes crazy- they sort of downplay it in Imperial Armor (it's pretty funny, I read the first mention of the Badab War (IIRC, RT or 2nd edition), where it's speculated that he's either alien-mind controlled or a shape shifting alien).

zerosevensenvenzero-- I can see the wanting to disappear thing, that's a good angle. I also wasn't saying they'd be able to claim the Maelstrom zone, just set up an empire in the less desirable real estate w/in the Maelstrom itself.

I've looked at the Tyrant's Legion-- it seems pretty cool, though I'm not sure it's really worth what you lose...

I'm looking at doing variations before and after their turn to Chaos-- using the IA characters for before the war, and alternate versions of them w/ "count as" rules for after...

re: thenoobbomb, is that a suggestion, or a joke, or conjecture?

I think for the 'Post war' Red Corsairs, Tzeentch, Khorne, and Chaos undivided make the most sense to follow (for the reasons you've detailed).

However, as a pirating warband, if a group of Nurgle or Slaanesh followers wanted to join in, he wouldn't turn them away. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and all of that.

I thought that either the Chaos Codex entry for Huron Blackheart or the IA10 book says that the Red Corsairs operated in the Maelstrom zone near Badab for a number of years as Huron built his pirate fleet. Then, he began harrassing Imperial shipping.

Okay, that's sort of the feel I thought re: post-war.


Another couple questions,

I was looking through IA9, and does anyone know if it was intentional that 2 of the 4 Astral Claws characters can't be taken in a Tyrant's Legion army? (Only Huron and the special character Centurion are allowed)

Also, I've been in the dark a bit-- it sounds like Lost and the Damned is getting resurrected in some form, is this is there much behind this rumor?

Similarly (about being out of the game for a while), is Apocalypse played with any regularity?

Not allowing them in a Tyrant's Legion army could be an oversite. However, maybe they don't want to allow the Master of the Forge in a Tyrant's Legion because they don't want that many Dreads running around with the conscripted IG units? Just a guess.

I think the other one not allowed messed with the Combat tactics for space marines, which I don't think many units in the Tyrant's legion has, do they? I don't have my books with me.

You should check the News and Rumors for the Chaos Legions thread. It's too far out to say, to be honest. I'd love to say that it's coming back, but no one knows. Pure speculation at this point.

My group plays Apoc 2 to 3 times a year. We'll have a big game in January to finish out our current campaign 4 Loyalists versus 3 chaos/renegade/Xenos (using the Badab war rules from IA9). That's about all we can muster since it takes an entire Saturday for us.

Ah, thanks for the advice/notes.

I can see not wanting more dreadnoughts. The other one was basically just a captain with some modified gear and access to a CMD squad, I guess maybe it was the command squad that they didn't want/thing was appropriate?



Also, I've been playing with an army thought, not sure if I should put this in another category or just continue here...

current cost: 1635 (obviously room to shift this...)

rule of note: tyrant's due: marine units can use guard units for cover saves, guard unit takes wounds

HQ:

Centurion (Marine veteran sergeant stats w/ 2 wounds, works like a commissar for IG-style units)
-power fist

Lugft Huron (basically chapter master in termie armour, lightning claw, heavy flamer)

Elites
5 assault terminators in a LRC (with Huron)

6 Retaliator squad (basically assault marines w/ combat shields and no jump packs)
-melta, power weapon
-las/plas razorback

Troops
20 Auxilia (basically IG conscripts w/ 6+ sv)
-2 flamers

10 Armsmen (basically IG)
-melta
-chimera

10 Legion Cohort (basically Marines with different options)
-2x melta, 1 power fist
-rhino

Predator
-AC + 2xHB

Leman Russ

This is more or less like my old Lost and the Damned force, except with less IG long range support and less cannon fodder, but the addition of much heavier shock troops (termies + huron).

Any thoughts on this?

EDIT: one of the big questions is, I'm not allowed any normal marine elites choices, but taking Huron allows for one (plus his honor guard), so...
1- is a 235 pt model worth access to an elites choice? (plus a the character, of course)
2- if you can only take one elites choice, which would you take?
3- would you take huron with his honor guard, and have a separate elites choice, or put him with said elites choice?

As always, thanks for any advice.

Is the Predator from the C:SM the Heavy you unlocked since you took a cohort squad?

I like predators, but a 4x Missile Launcher Dev squad in it's place would still keep you under 1750. But I do like the Predator next to the Leman Russ. That would look great next to each other, painted in the Tyrant's colors!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
A bit off topic, but I think you're going to get a kick out of the new book: The Gildar Rift

Yeah, the predator is the heavy from the cohort. I like the feel of that pair, too.

I'm a bit confused, I thought that that configuration of predator cost 85, vs. 150 for the missile launcher squad? I'm not sure what you're suggesting.

Also, thanks re: reading suggestion, I'll need to check that out!

What I'm getting at is 1635 isn't a common point people play. 1750 or even 1850 is, which would allow the substituion of the Devastators for the Predator.

However, rule of cool and all, I like the Predator/Leman Russ tag-team.

Oh, got it.

Yeah, I was assuming that that wasn't an even point value, I just wasn't sure what to drop or add to bring it up or down (comment about shifting that total).

To clarify, I'm interested in suggestions for paring it down to 1500 and bulking it out to 1750.

For 1,000, I'd take out Huron, the terminators, and their land raider, then put a few remaining points elsewhere, and above 1750, I'd probably add bikes, vehicles, and some more guard/meat shield (since they're so cheap), so, while suggestions for those scales would be nice, I'm mostly looking for 1.5/1.75k.

I could see the missile launcher dev squad (though I only have 3 missile launchers right now), but I do like the feel of vehicles (a lot of why I'm slowly returning from skirmish scale games), so I think that I'm happier with the predator for now.

Also, it's worth noting that I can take IG support squads (i.e. the typical 3x heavy weapon) as heavy weapon options, though it seems like the Predator is about the best deal for its points.

There is quite a big section about them in Blood Reaver the second Night Lords book. It gives you quite a good idea of what the Red Corsairs are actually up to. Huron has built himself a nice little empire within the Maelstrom nowadays.

I think the reason why Armenneus Valthex and Corien Sumatris wan't be taken by the Tyrants legion is because they're part of the Astral Claws main chapter. What's important t understand in this regard is that the Tyrants Legion was used as a disguise for the massive amounts of Astartes Huron was making, and so, were not part of the actual Chapter.
Though still Astartes, they worked more like overseers and shock troops in the Legion, so not supported by their brethren but by vast quantities of normal humans and materials. So while a normal chapter has about 1000 men under its banner, the Astral Claws had three times that number, but operating in two forces - the "core" chapter and the additional "hidden" forces of the Legion.
Sumatris and Valthex belongs to the "core" part, while Huron and the Arch Centurion could be leading both the "core" part and the Legion part of the forces.

I'm really liking your Legion-list, it has a bit of everything, which is nice. You should look into the Mercenary unit from the Elites section, it's great fun and offers quite a few options for conversions.
As for your question on Huron then I'd probably say no, not in games below 2000 points. 235points is a lot to dish out for a single character, even though he gets some nice special rules and has awesome wargear. I'd keep it to a Centurion and an auxiliary command section with a prefect and spend the points on more conscript/auxilia units and Cohorts with missile launchers.
If, however, I was to take Huron, then Assault Terminators and a Land Raider would be my choice. If the points-scale was big enough I'd take Huron with his hounor guard and leave the Terminators to roam around on their own, or trade them in for a Venerable Dread.

Ugly Green Trog, thanks, I'll look in to that, too.


zerosevensevenzero (I think I spelled that right )

Re: fluff, Yeah, I was a little unclear about what the Tyrant's Legion was-- if it only had a handful of Marines (i.e. just Retailiators and Centurions, and Cohorts as elites or heavy choices), I'd agree completely, except for a couple things:

Being able to take Marines as a troops choice made me think that it was more showing a mix of forces (implying that the chapter as a whole tended to, for instance, take the Retaliator variant of assault marines and have larger than normal tactical squads). Also, it seems sort of odd that a chapter master (esp. with his honor guard) would be leading the army he didn't officially lead.

re: list, thanks! It's been a long time since I've played 40k (building mostly from theory, after a long absence).

I'm really looking forward towards doing a mercenary unit or two on arvuses (arvi?): I'm thinking of doing one based on elysians ('cause they have that sort of retro sci-fi look, would probably call them Hereteks, I'm not sure what I would use for the Brute(s), maybe Ogryn (a bit bland, would take converting), something beasty from the DE range (seems suitable, as they're pirates around the maelstrom), FW renegade Ogryn (another pretty obvious one)

I think that, if they play well, I might do something out there for a second one, like Dark Eldar or Ork raiders with some conversions...

So, with a larger force, I probably will take an honor guard w/ separate terminators (which can potentially get me as many as 4 options (2 terminator combat squads, 2 land raiders), meaning that the limitation isn't that strict.

However, what would you take instead of Huron & co to fulfill similar roles, or would you shift the focus to a straight shooting army? I would think Commodus would be good, just to have something with decent melee stats, but I'm not really sure about anything else. I'm also not really seeing the advantage of the command section, since it doesn't give any of the benefits of the IG equivalent, other than keeping guys in place (but a centurion can do that, too)

Also, you seem to have some experience, how do you feel about the Arvus? it seems expensive (points and money), but I love the model/feel of it-- do you think it's worth investing in them for Legion Cohorts or something similar?

Well, I suppose that's right. It does seem odd that Huron as a chapter-master would be leading the Legion in battle with his honour guard. I think the reason for Huron being there is the same as the small appendix states in the Heavy section: Sometimes the chapters actual units would step in as support elements to the Legion, therefore you can pick a single heavy choice from the marine codex to back up your Legion heavies.
It could also be becuase Huron in his role as chapter master AND master of the Legion transcends the normal role of the astartes chapter master in that both the Astral Claws and the Tyrants Legion bow to him and are under his direct command. It's pretty characterfull that Huron, being a paranoid bastard as we know he was at the end of the Badab War, would take control of Legion armies on a larger scale to make sure his orders were carried out to the fullest.

I have a bit of experience with the Legion-list as I've been playing it since it came out. However I'm not much of a power-gamer, so I'm not really into what's the best things to take....but you probably already knew that from the fact that I play Tyrants Legion and not BA or GK...

I've used the Arvus in a few games (been using my valkyries as stand-ins) and they get shot down. A lot. But they're great fun to stick either Armsmen squads or Xenos Mercenaries in and see if you can get behind you opponents battleline. However, given the choice between a brittle flier and more marines for my Cohorts, I'll always go for more marines.

I think the Huron & co perform a very much needed role as counter assault units in the list, but if you're looking for something to fulfill a similar role in a game with less points I would suggest Retaliators mounted in razorbacks. The list I usually run consists of the following:

1 Centurion (not overly kitted out, maybe with a power weapon)

1 Prefect with 4 guys as bodyguards carrying a melta-bomb

2 Squads of 5 or 6 Retaliators in Razorbacks

1 Legion Cohort with 15 marines and as many missile launchers as I can get away with.

2 Legion Auxiliary units

2 Armsmen Cadres in Chimeras

and a few Leman russes and big guns for the remaining points.

It's a very shooty army, and the Retaliators will be kept back as counter attackers around my objectives with the Cohort and the Auxiliary units, while I focus the armsmen and drive towards the opponents objectives. The big guns and russes will either support the armsmen or stay in position, depending on what I'm up against.
Of course, you can easily swap units such as the retaliators or the armsmen for Iron Hunter bike teams or mercenaries. Or even use the Retaliators on the attack in their razorbacks.
The list is not really that powerful, but it's great fun to play, and I always have a laugh with the poor auxiliaries as meat shields for my marines. Even when they begin taking real casualties you have either the Centurion or the Prefect to make them stand their ground and improve your cover saves until they're spend.

As I said in the first post, the Legion is a fun list, just don't expect to win any tournaments with it.

Hi, thanks again for the tips.

I'm not looking to win every game with this list, just have a cool army that performs decently, basically. If I want super-competitive, I'll break out a Warmachine list.

I definitely get why retaliators are more appropriate in smaller games, and the note on a missile squad makes a lot of sense, so I'll probably go that way in smaller games. Maybe retaliators + min iron hunters, mostly b/c doubles seems not that much better than varying it up (more fun to paint), and I'll want to keep those elites choices open for mercs and terminators (I'd rather keep swapping out/upgrading in bigger point sizes to a minimum)

With the Arvus, I'm definitely feeling like getting a fast skimmer with no other redeeming qualities isn't worth a ton, and not 70pts even if it is pretty cool looking. I may want to take an arvus as a stand-in chimera, though.

I'm still not really sure on what make a legion command worth taking over a centurion, though.

Also, I'm thinking about getting a DKoK gorgon infantry unit (the one with 50 guys that are meant for trenches/gorgons but can be cut apart) for my auxilia (I like the models, and I think it's sort of funny to have the poor little auxilia standing around, not quite ready to get shot at). But, how many would you actually suggest? In a larger game, do you think that having 50+ (I might want to get a squad for some action poses and special weapon options) realistic/worth it, or is that just too many bodies/points not explicitly spent on offense to be worth it? Also, it seems like taking max flamers is the only way they'll ever actually be a threat (plus the centurion to keep them moving forward).

I think 50+ Auxilias are a bit over the top, but it depends on how many cohorts and other static elements you have in your army.
I usually run my lists with one group of 20 Legion Auxilia for every squad of Cohort Astartes, keeping them nearby for that extra cover save. If or when something nasty comes too close, I use them for blocking charges or as extra bodies in an assault. My opponent can then either choose to ignore the huge blob of infantry, and take the hits, or he can start killing them one by one, leaving my Cohort free of any damage.

As for the Prefect/Tribune, I find that his 18" command-bubble is handy, especially since I don't have a Centurion for every Auxilia or Armsman Cadre in the army. Also, when being led by a Centurion, humans tend to die quickly when they get stuck in due to the Angel of Death special rule. They're not supposed to last very long, and their role in the army is to die at some point, but I find that a Prefect or Tribune often keep them in line just as well without the extra casualties.

Have you thought about the Corpse Taker? I know he's very mission specific, but in games with Kill Points, he's almost invaluable. I've still to work out why anyone would take all those extra servitors, as I see him as a unit that just need to follow your main close combat units around, trying to hug as much cover as possible.
Of course, he's also an opportunity to make a really cool model, I've always had a thing for Apothecaries.

I think the arvus could double as a chimera, since you'd be pretty much handicapping yourself with it's flying base your opponent shouldn't have any problems with it. And navy armsmen really should be mounted in some sort of flier, shouldn't they? I think the DkoK infantry could easily double as Tyrants Legion infantry. Huron used a lot of bioweapons during the war, so they would probably be using gas-masks like the death korps.
I've got a log on ammobunker with some Badab War stuff in it, it's called "Wars in the Maelstrom Zone" on the general board, there's some of my Astral Claws/Legion stuff in it, but not all yet.

They just seem to be pirates in general, so it seems like anything and everything can be included in their list. The sole exceptions I would say fluff wise, might actually be daemons.

I think Red Corsairs is a way to mix imperial guard units with chaos space marines. But the fluff, that of renegades would suggest that it is still a mainly human army rather than one that has daemons in it.

Their style also seems to be mainly hit and run, based on the pirates style of fighting.

zero(etc),

okay, I think that that number of guard is close enough that I won't end up using 20 of them and never touching the rest.

re: the corpsetaker, first, while the concept is pretty cool, I'm more used to more or less missionless 40k (mostly played 3rd edition and early 4th), so I hadn't been thinking much about that.

Second, basically, I'm trying to make the list build up w/ few replacements (like I said about the retaliators)

I'm looking at my choices eventually filling out as:
HQ:
Centurion/Commodus
Prefect/Huron/Huron + honor guard (depending on points)

Elites:
-(assault) Terminators (magnetized for all options)
-Retaliator squad
-marauders

Troops
-Auxilia x1-2
-Cohort x2
-Cadre x1-3
-0-2 something?

Fast:
-Iron Hunters
-Sentry guns
-something?

heavy
-Russ(es)
-Predator
-maelstrom fleet (probably vulture(s), since they can be used in non-apocalypse), or maybe a more boring devastator squad


...so, my list is starting to have very little room in it, and I just feel like the added melee punch of the other elites choices is more necessary than a cool but situational unit. Do you just use the corpse taker in smaller games?

Re: servitors: I guess so you can cover more of a front when using him? unfortunately, with 5th edition's crazy cover/unit rules, a wider front has its own set of problems. I think he'd have been better as an independent character (or the standard 1-3 for an elites choice).

I'll need to check out your ammobunker thing, not familiar with that...
edit: wasn't able to find what you were talking about, link please? (thanks)

edit:

Elden, yeah, I think daemons would be going a bit too far with that, well, until the Astral Claws go full heretic.


Also, thoughts on sentry guns? It seems like, when the analogous unit is the auxilia heavy support, which is more expensive, not twin linked, heavy support instead of fast, and 2-wound infantry instead of arm 10 vehicles, it's not much of a choice... It seems like, for the cost of a Marine, you get a pretty good deal.

I've never really used the corpse taker unit, was just curious if you'd give it a go I suppose you'd only take him because he grants the feel-no-pain rule to his entire unit, soaking up some damage. In a standard list I don't think he's of much use. However, he's a pretty cool character, so I might paint one up.

I don't think the sentry guns are worth it to be honest, your points in the list are better spend on marines and big guns (basilisks or medusas) than on a static unit that's rather non-versatile. I've used them for my drop-troop list from IA vol.8 and they underperformed to say the least, so I wouldn't take them with the Legion.

Ammobunker.org then go from the ammo-highway to the main site, then under General Project Logs, and my log will be in there under the name of "Wars in the Maelstrom Zone". There's a few pictures of some of my Astral Claws, Legion, Lamenters and Carcharodons and a load of fluff. Check it out if you get the time.

Cool, I like your white face plates on your Carcharacons (I think I spelled that correctly) and "crashed" drop pod (I may need to steal that idea).

Also, I had the same idea w/ the high elf bits, though I'm making simple molds (partially to practice, and partially because I wanted to modify them: they're pointier than I'd prefer)

Nice use of sgt Naaman, I always liked that old mini (is he still in production?). Also, with yellow, I'd suggest bestial brown or bubonic brown as an undercoat.

Also, I like the amount of detail you put in to your squads etc. Gives a lot of character. Are you working on full armies for all of those, or just "samples"? I've actually considered, since I'm getting back in to 40k fresh, doing 2-3 maelstrom armies, too (others would probably be orks or dark eldar, and a melee marine force.

re: sentry guns, comparing killing power vs. marines, it looks like a marine and a sentry gun will kill about the same amount (approx 1/6 shots will hit, wound, kill), but the difference is one is more mobile while the other has 3 shots. I don't find the comparison to heavy support as relevant, as I'm already finding myself running low on heavy slots, and want russ(es) (I like the feel, and they're more durable), a predator, and air support, so I probably won't ever see open heavy options...

However, if they don't perform great, it certainly isn't worth that much money for a decent model that doesn't even situationally work

Thanks, I'll remember the tip on beast-brown undercoat, that yellow has been driving me mad for a year now.
I'm working on full armies, actually I already have them all painted I'm just incredibly slow at taking pictures and developing stories.

When you get your own marines going then post them up, it's always nice to see some more Badab War marines out on the forums.