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Hey guys, this question came up earlier.

one of the space wolf wargears gives the bearer a always hits on a 3+ in combat, does this work with grenades against walkers? (which only hit on 6's usually)

Thx

I believe that you'd still only hit on 6's.

Unless the Walker is Immo/Stunned, you will need 6's to hit with the grenade.

but the war gear says, with the FAQ, if you have a comparing WS, you always hit on a 3.
had this disscussion in length with the local TO, and he ruled as it stands with every rule and FAQ in front of him, hit on a 3+
several of us took part in this talk.

6+ with grenades is more specific than 3+ overall, 6+ wins.

Lol this thread again? It always come down to the debate of what Arch1 just said and grenades have their own special "To hit" rules so it over rides the war gear. You need to ask TO's if youre traveling or make a set rule with your group because there is no solid answer

rigeld2 wrote:6+ with grenades is more specific than 3+ overall, 6+ wins.

This is pretty much correct. The WTN allows you to always hit on 3 against models with a weapon skill, but grenade attacks have their own specific rules which override the general to-hit rules.

With that said, to be fair trying to have the 'specific versus general' conversation with someone who disagrees with you can be like pulling teeth, as it is such a gray area.

With no FAQ from GW, does INAT clarify the situation? (for those who use it, which I recommend be everyone)

rigeld2 wrote:6+ with grenades is more specific than 3+ overall, 6+ wins.

One could argue that the 3+ is more specific than the general 6+, as it's for one specific army...

I am inclined to agree with you, though, but there will always be someone who believes otherwise. If in doubt, just D6 it.

Cheexsta wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:6+ with grenades is more specific than 3+ overall, 6+ wins.

One could argue that the 3+ is more specific than the general 6+, as it's for one specific army...

One would be wrong. The number of armies/models/units that have the rule is irrelevant. It's the breadth of rules coverage. One works for every melee attack. One works on grenades specifically. The latter is more specific, and wins.

I am inclined to agree with you, though, but there will always be someone who believes otherwise. If in doubt, just D6 it.

I'd be reluctant to d6 it just because that allows an incorrect rule to be used. But in a friendly game, sure - because I just don't care that much.

rigeld2 wrote:One would be wrong. The number of armies/models/units that have the rule is irrelevant. It's the breadth of rules coverage. One works for every melee attack. One works on grenades specifically. The latter is more specific, and wins.

Fair call, I'll pass this on to our resident SW player. We've always played otherwise, simply because I couldn't be bothered arguing it.

I'd be reluctant to d6 it just because that allows an incorrect rule to be used. But in a friendly game, sure - because I just don't care that much.

Personally I feel that every game should be friendly, whether you're in a competitive environment or not

arch1angel wrote:but the war gear says, with the FAQ, if you have a comparing WS, you always hit on a 3.

If you're trying to hit a dreadnought with a grenade, you're not comparing WS.

Wait i stand corrected.. i was wrong about the FAQ

Page 62 – Wolftooth Necklace
Replace the last sentence with “Against models with a WS
value, a model with a wolftooth necklace always hits in
close combat on the roll of a 3+.”

this just means if it has a WS you hit, there is no comparison.. i misread that before...

Doesn't change that the grenade rule is more specific.

Haha GW needs to stand for Grey Writing

rigeld2 wrote:Doesn't change that the grenade rule is more specific.

ok lets have a actual debate about it... i see your 1 ONE singular point... that is your opinion on how it is worded, no other argument to back it up... now look at it from a this angle...

situation 1
Ok i am rolling to hit, on a tank,
you have a weapon skill right? no,
i have a neckless, i guess since you dont have a WS i hit based on movment for HTH not grenade...


situation 2
Ok i am rolling to hit, on a tank,
you have a weapon skill right? no,
i have a neckless, i guess since you dont have a WS i hit based on movment for a grenade...

ok those 2 situations are similar all but the grenade...

situation 3
rolling to hit on a troop
you have a weapon skill, yes
i have a neckless, its powers alow me to hit you on a 3+

Situation 4
rolling to hit on a walker
you have a weapon skill? yes
i have a neckless, its powers allow me to hit you on a 3+

situation 5a
rolling to hit on a walker WITH a grenade this time
do you have a weapon skill? yes...
are you stuned or immoblized? yes
i have a neckless, its powers says i hit on a _______________ answer A:

situation 5b
rolling to hit on a walker WITH a grenade this time
do you have a weapon skill? yes...
are you stuned or immoblized? no
i have a neckless, its powers says i hit on a _______________ answer B:

arch1angel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Doesn't change that the grenade rule is more specific.

ok lets have a actual debate about it... i see your 1 ONE singular point... that is your opinion on how it is worded, no other argument to back it up... now look at it from a this angle...

Thats because there doesn't need to be any backup...

situation 1
Ok i am rolling to hit, on a tank,
you have a weapon skill right? no,
i have a neckless, i guess since you dont have a WS i hit based on movment for HTH not grenade...

Are you throwing a grenade? If not, movement based for normal attacks.

situation 2
Ok i am rolling to hit, on a tank,
you have a weapon skill right? no,
i have a neckless, i guess since you dont have a WS i hit based on movment for a grenade...

Same as situation 1. If you are throwing a grenade, 6+ If you're not, normal movement based.

situation 3
rolling to hit on a troop
you have a weapon skill, yes
i have a neckless, its powers alow me to hit you on a 3+

Yes.

Situation 4
rolling to hit on a walker
you have a weapon skill? yes
i have a neckless, its powers allow me to hit you on a 3+

Yes.

edit: had my walker rules wrong in my head. Revising.

situation 5
rolling to hit on a walker WITH a grenade this time
do you have a weapon skill? yes...
are you stuned or immoblized? yes
i have a neckless, its powers says i hit on a _______________ answer A:

3+ since a stun or immobilize give you a normal roll against his WS.

situation 5
rolling to hit on a walker WITH a grenade this time
do you have a weapon skill? yes...
are you stuned or immoblized? no
i have a neckless, its powers says i hit on a _______________ answer B:

6+ because the necklace's power is worthless in this situation.

rigeld2

your wrong on so many things, go read your rule book, and im talking about before even getting to situation 5a or 5b.. you might change your answers if you knew all the rules for this.... maybe not wrong, but not completely correct....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Thats because there doesn't need to be any backup...

but this is a debate not comparing whos army is bigger, at conversation about the rule, not who can yell the loudest...

Page 62 – Wolftooth Necklace
Replace the last sentence with “Against models with a WS
value, a model with a wolftooth necklace always hits in
close combat on the roll of a 3+.”

To me this is saying when comparing weapon skills to see what you need to hit in a NORMAL combat situation the wolftooth necklace ignores the normal chart and allows you to hit on a roll of 3+.

"A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a walker on a roll of 6."

And to me this says that you ignore the NORMAL rules when rolling to hit and apply this rule.

Lol that a better argument than saying "NOPE, IM RIGHT! YOUS IS WRONG CAUSE I SAID SO AND THATS HOW WE PLAY IT IN MOM'S BASEMENT!"?

Chosen Praetorian wrote:"A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a walker on a roll of 6."

your mostly right... but you are wrong.. read the rule book

arch1angel wrote:

Chosen Praetorian wrote:"A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a walker on a roll of 6."

your mostly right... but you are wrong.. read the rule book

The kind of language you used in your response is completely unnaceptable, and this isn't the first time you have been warned about it. Warning issued, please refresh yourself on rule #1 - MajorTom11.

and yes, better way to argue... someone that gets the POINT of a discussion....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chosen Praetorian wrote:

arch1angel wrote:

Chosen Praetorian wrote:"A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a walker on a roll of 6."

your mostly right... but you are wrong.. read the rule book

-removed-

and do you still think your 100% right?

DakkaDakka wrote:

We play it as a 3+ in our area, mainly due to the fact walkers fall into the category of having WS.

arch1angel wrote:rigeld2

your wrong on so many things, go read your rule book, and im talking about before even getting to situation 5a or 5b.. you might change your answers if you knew all the rules for this.... maybe not wrong, but not completely correct....

Can you cite where I was wrong, so I can educate myself? With page numbers, preferably.

I've always ruled in our tournaments and GT's that you need a 6 to hit with a grenade, reguardless of things like a WTN that say 'always hit on a 3+'.

Sure, that's akin to saying "We play it this way in MY basement.", but then again, I have a really big Basement.)

arch1angel wrote:your mostly right... but you are wrong.. read the rule book

This sort of response adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. If you have a further point to make, then make it. Just stating that everyone else is wrong and shoudl read the rulebook accomplishes nothing constructive, and tends to be taken as trolling.

insaniak wrote:

arch1angel wrote:your mostly right... but you are wrong.. read the rule book

This sort of response adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. If you have a further point to make, then make it. Just stating that everyone else is wrong and shoudl read the rulebook accomplishes nothing constructive, and tends to be taken as trolling.

my point is he is missing something major in the rule book, if he cant find it i will happlying point out the page, most people by what i have seen on here always just quote quote quote, if the think they are right they never go back and check, (many people here keep getting the rules between 4th and 5th edition mixed up in their heads, we all finaly re-read the rule book, we were doing so many things wrong)

if they think im trolling let them think.. they will still be wrong....



Automatically Appended Next Post:
ridgeld2,

your wrong on situation 2, page 63, re read...

well dam, i thought there was another.. i stand corrected,

i see that you change S5a...

if you feel your still right, i guess we are done,

in the end i really dont care, i always ask my opponant, its a fun game to me,
outside of a game i will have a good spirited debate over the rules just to see what they say....

rigeld2 wrote:

arch1angel wrote:
situation 2
Ok i am rolling to hit, on a tank,
you have a weapon skill right? no,
i have a neckless, i guess since you dont have a WS i hit based on movment for a grenade...

Same as situation 1. If you are throwing a grenade, 6+ If you're not, normal movement based.

arch1angel wrote:ridgeld2,

your wrong on situation 2, page 63, re read...

if you feel your still right, i guess we are done,

in the end i really dont care, i always ask my opponant, its a fun game to me,
outside of a game i will have a good spirited debate over the rules just to see what they say....

You're right - I was wrong on situation 2. I don't use grenades because with the exception of a couple of situations Tyranids don't have them. Thanks for clarifying.

So, now, how does that situation have any bearing on grenades vs a walker, and hence grenades with a WTN vs a walker?

Old argument is old. I am sure a search will bring up the many other arguments, both pre FAQ and post FAQ.

My stance on the matter is that the WTN does indeed work with grenades versus walkers.

Checking for the prescence of a WS value, which is the only requirement of the WTN, is not a WS comparison as some are trying to argue.

As far as specific and more specific, that argument has gone through many iterations on this board.

Some say that a specific piece of wargear in a specific codex is more specifc then a specific rule regarding specifically placing grenades on a walker. Of course then the argument arises that thw WTN is specific to all attacks in close combat while the walker rule is specific to grenade attacks.

My opinion is that while it is clear that grenades against walkers are a very specific attack, the WTN doesn't care. It chooses to set a different standard of defining it use; not by specifying distinct attacks that hit on a 3+, but by specifying distinct targets that are hit on a 3+, ie, those with a WS value.

This is supported by the errata issued for the WTN. Whereas before the WTN hit on a 3+, regardless of WS comparison (specifying attacks made using a WS) the errata allows a WTN hit on a 3+ when a WS is present (specifying targets eligible to be hit using a WTN).