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In episode 92 the third chair is filled by Randall Bills. Randall has worked in the Adventure Gaming industry for over 15 years. He's worked on such seminal properties as BattleTech and Shadowrun, while bringing other great universes to life, such as Cosmic Patrol and Leviathans.

A great game is published, but how and why should you expand it. Join the guys as they examine the different ways games are grown. Which method is best for which type of game?

Later it's time to review Super Dungeon Explore from Cool Mini or Not and Soda Pop miniatures. Does the world need yet another dungeon exploring game populated with Chibi's? Let's find out...

All that and our other not-too-horrible segments including:

- The Hollywood Minute
- Total Fan Girl
- Do You Ever Notice
- & More

Link to the episode:
http://www.thed6generation.com/webpage/d6g-ep-92-growing-your-game-super-dungeon-explore-review

Ah, some good 'ol chubby dungeon crawling. I can't wait!

I'm surprised that Craig didn't mention the Catapult expansion for Carcassonne.

Sometimes I think games get expanded because the designer has grand visions for what the game can be or because the fan base wants to keep diving into the game universe and both those are fine reasons to expand, but then there are things that are blatant cash-grabs that don't take much effort to produce and are there for suckers who love the game and always buy everything for it.

In general I don't like expansions that much. That might be partially due to not having a lot of spare funds (and/or being cheap), but also to not having as much opportunity to play as I'd like. I feel like I usually don't play a game enough to need the variety or complexity an expansion might offer.

Some exceptions: Settlers of Catan was a game I ended up playing A LOT with family, so I was interested in getting the Seafarers and City expansions. I've played Seafarers a few times and have enjoyed it, but have never touched the City yet as it seems to completely change the game and I haven't had time to learn it. Also, the 5-6 player expansions are a necessity and really add to the experience. Ticket to Ride is also a game I've played a bunch and really enjoy, but the small cards that are included in the game just don't feel as good as a full sized playing card, so I picked up the 1910 expansion and as a result I also always play with all the included destination tickets as I like the increased variety and never feel like separating the expansion cards from the base set cards.

Miniature games are completely different compared to board games when it comes to expansions. Board game expansions are usually small updates that don’t cost much and you only get if you’d like to deepen your investment in the game, but with a miniature game an expansion is usually a required update to keep up with the game and not get outclassed by other players who are buying the new hotness.

I’d add that Malifaux seems to strike a slight balance between the two in that each model is like a self contained expansion, so with a $10-15 purchase or two you can almost completely change the way your crew works, whereas most other war games would require a more significant investment to dramatically change your experience.

Thanks for the last few episodes chaps. I would just like to say that the 3rd chair seems to be working well from my perspective. Both Randall and Ross were able to add some real industry perspective. I was particularly taken with Randall's observation about the miniatures in Super Dungeon Explore (and that they could have been assembled for an extra 10 bucks), and how that modelling aspect affected the ratings that both SDE and Dreadfleet received from the team.

The Ed Stark interview was excellent too from last episode; and again I think that Ross asked some really interesting questions from that industry insider standpoint.

Keep up the good work, and high quality of guest hosts!

I think Randal missed some of the problems with having assembled minis in SDE. The cost to have assembled minis would be more than just the cost of assembly. You have to factor in box size and packaging as well. The size of the SDE box would increase significantly and you'd have to design a way to package the minis so they wouldn't break. Bigger boxes cost more money and would also cost more for shipping. I'm not sure what kind of plastic the minis are made from, but pre-assembled might also mean going with a cheaper/more bendy plastic. So just saying and extra $10 would cover it doesn't feel like an accurate estimate to me.

Also the fact that an extra $10 will break some people's cost threshold for a board game.

Its at the $90 point. With shipping, since I won't be seeing it in a store, its at or over $100 already.

Assembly isn't a big issue, I don't think. Lack of clear assembly instructions is.

Thanks for the kind words Holdenstein!

Randall's pre-assembled suggestion might be possible. If you look at WizKid's Fleet Captains game, that's 24 large space ships assembled and in a box that keep's 'em safe all for $100.

SDE does have more miniatures (about 35) but they are much smaller.

But I also agree that $90 feels a lot more affordable to most gamers than $100.

-Russ

P.S. Holdenstein I love your sig. I'm totally going to steal it for a tweet.

The thing about Fleet Captains is they might have been able to spread the costs out between it and their Star Trek Clix game. (I think they use the same models, just unpainted for Fleet Captains)

If they were doing a big run of assembled ships to be painted for the Clix game, it would be easy to tack on some more for the boardgame. They did manage to fit it all in a box for $100, but the economies of scale might have helped lower the model and assembly cost. Not to mention I'd guess WizKids did a larger print run for Fleet Captains than SDE, so possible economies of scale again. For SDE, with more miniatures and smaller parts I'm not convinced it would be a good estimate.

I don't even know why I'm arguing it so much... anyway, great show as usual!

It doesn't really matter exactly how much assembled/re-designed models would increase the game's price. The most important thing is that it probably wouldn't have come up as a possibility on the show previously, and anything expands the show's horizons is a good thing IMHO. The only other thing that you might consider adding would be a less experienced gamer from your regular group to the review segments, to get that everygamer opinion that Raef was so good at adding.

@Russ. You're welcome.

another great episode ! love the third chair . works real well . thanks for the hard work and for all the time you guys put in . i have a hour and a half commute too and from work each day and listen to a lot of podcast . most of them are loseing steam and are fizzleing out . d6 gen is still going strong with good material . keep up the great work, its much appreciated !!

Totally agree MattRendar. I am always glad to see a new D6 Episode in the queue. There are never really any bad episodes and they are regular on releases. I'm currently looking to fill podcast time that went out the window with other casts going offline or just on hiatus.

Great episode as always! I really want to check out SDE but I don't think my gaming group would take it seriously...

Also, just a shout out to follow D6G on Twitter, picked up Blood Bowl for $8 on Steam thanks to Russ and have basically played it non-stop since!

Great episode (as usual)! I found the Super Dungeon Explore! review very interesting... I hope that you review the 2nd edition of Descent when it comes out, because I will probably end up buying one of these games but I'm not sure which yet.

Also, just a thought - if Raef is going to keep doing the Hollywood Minute, and I hope he does, maybe you can mention him in the "with contributions from..." section at the start of the podcast? You could probably just splice in the "Raef 'Hollywood' Granger" bit from the old intro.

I liked the Super Dungeon Explore review. Really wanna get that game, but I know i just won't have the time because I'll see all that nekkid plastic and need to paint it.. I'll probably have to cave and get it anyway one of these days... if I can ever stop playing Skyrim...

Another great episode guys, and I agree that the third chair system appears to be working well.

Just a couple of brief thoughts... While I agree that board games are far more often 'reskinned' to add a fresh theme or spin on the tried rules mechanics, this does occassionally happen to miniature games, and it is becoming a more common event. However, with wargames generally more detailed and 'theme specific' and the inherant tendancies of gamers to fiddle with mechanics, few survive the process completely untouched. Probably the most well known is Blitzkrieg Commander (and the subsequent 'reskins' of Cold War Commander and Scifi Commander) which are 'broadly inspired' by the GW Warmaster rules engine. Also, Sturmovic Commander (a niche and less well known game but one which I have a minor hand in) uses the FW Aeronautica Imperialis rules engine to repurpose this for WWII air combat. On a more general level, several historical games throw in some magic rules and rebrand themselves as 'high fantasy'. And, not to mention all of those Warhammer Historical games that repurpose the Lord of the Rings rules engine.

There are far more examples of rules sets drawing more generally from other inspirations, such as Secrets of the Third Reich which - I believe - utilises many of the older 40K rules mechanics as ideas.

And I only just figured out that the Craig from D6G is the same Craig I've been talking to over E-mail for the past few weeks. Wow am I slow...

Anyway, downloaded for the Super Dungeon Explore! review. My copy is sitting behind me unopened (just no time to use it yet...) and I hope to get to it before the end of the year.

Kudos on another great episode guys.
Randall filled the 3rd chair nicely. I think his style nicely complemented Craig and Russ'. He's toward the middle of that Craig-Russ spectrum between "Cynical connoisseur" and "Gameshow Host". I look forward to hearing more from Randall in the future.

I REALLY enjoyed the discussion of Skyrim and I bought it right after I heard this episode. I was on the fence (enjoying Dark Souls the last few months) but your conversation with Randall put me over the edge.
All I can say is "Wow!". To my boardgame queue in the basement, all I can say is "I'm sorry, and I'll see you in 2012."

I wont be getting "Super Dungeon Explore!", and I'm really surprised so many hardcore fans are into it. Dont take this the wrong way- I love that there are new takes on the genre bringing new things to the industry. It sounds like they are bringing some innovative concepts and ideas into one of my favorite gaming genres, which I think is great. If it makes future games more interesting, fun and playable, I'm all for it!
I just personally cant face the look and style of this game.
Like Craig I guess I will have to forced at gunpoint to try it in order to really enjoy it, because from the outside I can tell you I'm skeptical.

Anime children + dungeon crawling + console video game-style romp? No thanks. That would be like combining steampunk + 40k + battlemechs in a tabletop wargame.

Great show, guys. Keep it coming!

Another great episode, guys!

I thought the discussion about expanding games was very interesting! You could easily do a whole show on this topic and still not do it justice. One thing that I am struggling with, though, is conceptualizing just how the 40k model fits in. To me, a codex doesn't seem like an expansion; I tend to think of expansions in terms of things like Apocalypse, City Fight, and Planet strike. On the other hand, a new codex does expand the scope of the overall game, so I guess it does qualify as an expansion from that perspective.

The review was good, as usual. Unfortunately, the game doesn't sound all that interesting to me; I'm just not a dungeon crawl/fantasy kind of guy. On the other hand, I am a big anime/Japanese culture fan, so I definitely won't go out of my way to avoid playing a demo game if I ever get the chance .

@Craig: This ep's Did You Ever Notice really struck a chord with me, especially when I look up and realize it has been 3 hours since I sat down at the computer or painting table! I find that, for me, the best way to counter my tendency to zone out on tasks is to try and plan out my time more closely. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I don't .

Ruckdog wrote:One thing that I am struggling with, though, is conceptualizing just how the 40k model fits in. To me, a codex doesn't seem like an expansion; I tend to think of expansions in terms of things like Apocalypse, City Fight, and Planet strike. On the other hand, a new codex does expand the scope of the overall game, so I guess it does qualify as an expansion from that perspective.

I think that a codex is an expansion, but it appears differently because it is expected. If GW produced a codex on a totally new race and army, never bseen before, it would be clearer as an expansion.

CyberShadow wrote:[
I think that a codex is an expansion, but it appears differently because it is expected. If GW produced a codex on a totally new race and army, never seen before, it would be clearer as an expansion.

You know, that is a good point. I think part of the issue here is that I have only been playing 40k for a few years, so I haven't been around for the complete roll out of a brand-new race. Your example is definitely a much more clear-cut example of a codex as an expansion.

Ruckdog wrote:

CyberShadow wrote:[
I think that a codex is an expansion, but it appears differently because it is expected. If GW produced a codex on a totally new race and army, never seen before, it would be clearer as an expansion.

You know, that is a good point. I think part of the issue here is that I have only been playing 40k for a few years, so I haven't been around for the complete roll out of a brand-new race. Your example is definitely a much more clear-cut example of a codex as an expansion.

A new codex can be fuzzy, esp if it is a re-do of an existing race. But even in these cases often times new unit types and abilities are introduced. i.e. The IG have been around forever, but the latest codex added the Valk.

It's a bit clearer the way PP or Wyrd manage releases. Each new book adds all new units to all factions of Warmachine or Malifaux.