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Got a league starting up in mid January. Thinking bout buying a Space Wolves force for it (will be painting/converting them up as Astral Claws or Celestial Lions) and I want something that's hard as nails.

Anyway, I'd love some feedback on the list itself, what lists you think I may have the most trouble with and also some idea on how best to expand to 2000pts.

1500pt Space Wolves:

Rune Priest
w/ Terminator Armour
w/ Living Lightning and JOTWW

Rune Priest
w/ Terminator Armour
w/ Living Lightning and JOTWW

5 Grey Hunters
w/ Meltagun
Razorback with TL Lascannons

5 Grey Hunters
w/ Meltagun
Razorback with TL Lascannons

5 Grey Hunters
w/ Meltagun
Razorback with TL Lascannons

5 Grey Hunters
Razorback with TL Lascannons

6 Long Fangs
w/ Missile Launchers
Razorback with TL Lascannons

6 Long Fangs
w/ Missile Launchers
Razorback with TL Lascannons

6 Long Fangs
w/ Missile Launchers
Razorback with TL Lascannons


So? Whatcha think?

I'm going to ask you some questions. Please think them out before answering.

First question. Why all of the TL las cannons?

Second question. Why all of the TL las cannons AND melta guns in your units?

Third question. Rune Priests in Termy Armor? You going to put them in Long Fang units?

Well, my thought was that with that much long ranged high strength firepower I would hopefully be able to knock out the biggest threats I'd face first turn, Landraiders, Vendettas, Stormravens, Dreads, Trygons, etc.

Melta guns mainly because they were cheap and provide a bit of hard hitting to a unit should they love their transport.

Terminator armour mainly because I wanted to add a little extra durability to them...but my thought was that with so many missile launcher and lascannon targets that the Rune Priests would likely not be the first thing that an opponent would try to knock out.



So you think that that many razorbacks is overkill?

Well, my thought was that with that much long ranged high strength firepower I would hopefully be able to knock out the biggest threats I'd face first turn, Landraiders, Vendettas, Stormravens, Dreads, Trygons, etc.

You will be hard pressed against a horde army.

Suggestion. #1 drop 4 TL las cannons and add 4 TL Assault cannons. This way you got enough long range TL Las cannon support with a possible mid range from your Assault cannons, 16 STR 6 AP 4 Rending shots that can take care of your AV 14 problems. The Assault cannons will provide the anti infantry you so dearly need.

Melta guns mainly because they were cheap and provide a bit of hard hitting to a unit should they love their transport.

Melta guns should be only used if you do not have any long range fire support. Your units are small. You need to get within 6 inches to be really effective. If you miss you are going to get hosed by the impending counter attack that should happen at that unit.

Suggestion #2 If you are going to use Suggestion #1 then keep the meltas as back up. If not then swap them for flamers and save you +20 points which you could put them on purchasing dozer blades on 4 of your razorbacks.

Terminator armour mainly because I wanted to add a little extra durability to them...but my thought was that with so many missile launcher and lascannon targets that the Rune Priests would likely not be the first thing that an opponent would try to knock out.

Suggestion #3 I suggest if you are going to give them Termie armor then place them with your long fangs, otherwise they will be sniped by being out alone on the table.

These are suggestions on what you posted for your army list.

Well, the Terminator Armor is unfortunately not the best way to lend durability to Rune Priests. Attaching them to a unit in a Rhino adds durability, because they can fire out of the hatch. That said, your Rune Priests are illegal, because they have identical Wargear and Powers. By the Leaders of the Pack rule, they MUST have a different combination of powers and a different combination of wargear (two separate requirements).

I don't have any particular problem with the TL Lascannons and the Meltaguns to be honest. The TL Lascannons are what I run on my Razorbacks because LasPlas cannot move and fire both weapons like they can for Blood Angels, and I tend to use them for ranged suppression fire. The Meltaguns offer some extra anti-tank punch, but I tend to run these small units in conjunction with larger units in Rhinos, so I'm a bit more mobile with them. The Meltagun is usually there as a means of preventing a tank-shock from moving me off an objective, or to protect my Long Fangs from a vehicle rush.

Personally I would consider dropping two of the Razorbacks down to Rhinos and dropping the Terminator Armor from your Rune Priests. Then swap out Living Lightning on the second one for either Tempest's Wrath or Murderous Hurricane, and give the first one a Chooser of the Slain. This makes them legal and gives you a 2+ to hit with Living Lightning.

At that point you will have about 110 points to play with. You could add some Wolf Scouts, or beef up your squads in Rhinos a bit to be more of a melee threat, or you could drop a couple of Long Fangs and add another pack in a Razorback, your choice.

At 1,500 I run lists that look like this:

Rune Priest (Meltabombs, Living Lightning, Jaws) - 105
Rune Priest (Jaws, Tempest's Wrath) - 100
3 Wolf Guard (3x Power Fist, 3x Combi-Melta) - 129
5 Wolf Scouts (Meltagun, Meltabombs) - 110
8 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino) - 170
8 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino) - 170
5 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Razorback w/ TL Las) - 155
5 Grey Hunters (Meltagun, Razorback w/ TL Las) - 155
6 Long Fangs (5 Missile Launchers, Razorback w/ TL Las) - 215
5 Long Fangs (5 Missile Launchers, Razorback w/ TL Las) - 190
Total 1,499

Not enough room for the third pack of Long Fangs but a pretty solid all-around list from my experience. If you specifically want to go for Razorspam, then ditch the extra models/equipment from the large packs, ditch the Wolf Guard, and add the third pack of Long Fangs back in.

Hope that helps!

@ Aldarionn Yea you are right on the Rune priest thing.

I posted the way I posted so that the OP can design his army according to what I am perceive are his attentions for his posting.

I've ran a list similar to the OP (tournament worthy) which is why I made my suggestions without trying to change his concept. He wants long range fire support to attack his opponent which I definitely like.



Added: Cassiel's list is starting to grow on me. I think I'll try it some time soon with/without modifications.

Thanks for the suggestions and feedback guys, I'll make the Rune Priests legal (somehow missed that rule) by giving one Murderous Hurricane instead of Living Lightning and I'll take off the Terminator Armour and I'll add in a Choose of the Slain and a Wolf Tail Talisman.

Also, for facing hordes I agree that I may have a tougher time, but I think replacing 4 TL Lascannons may be too much, converting one or two to assault cannons should due the trick, because the long fangs can drop lots of blast templates onto advancing mobs and I could always pile the grey hunters out of the razorbacks for a turn for some much needed bolter shots.

When expanding to 2000, what are your guys thoughts on Thunderwolves and packs of Fenrisian wolves?

Thanks again.

As you expand I would suggest adding WG with combi-melta to each of the GH squads if for nothing else to bolster their leadership.

Four TWC would work as a fantastic counter-charge unit. I think that would really work well for your strategy. Three would even do the trick.

Another option would be a unit or two of scouts to put pressure on the opponent and to keep them thinking. 5xScouts with melta and WG with combi-melta will scare some people.

If you can do all of those things you will have a nasty list indeed.

Duece11, I'm pretty sure I can add all of those things in with another 500 points.

I'm feeling very excited to play this list. I guess now it's time to bite the bullet and make an order...my bank account groans.

Cassiel wrote:Thanks for the suggestions and feedback guys, I'll make the Rune Priests legal (somehow missed that rule) by giving one Murderous Hurricane instead of Living Lightning and I'll take off the Terminator Armour and I'll add in a Choose of the Slain and a Wolf Tail Talisman.

Also, for facing hordes I agree that I may have a tougher time, but I think replacing 4 TL Lascannons may be too much, converting one or two to assault cannons should due the trick, because the long fangs can drop lots of blast templates onto advancing mobs and I could always pile the grey hunters out of the razorbacks for a turn for some much needed bolter shots.

When expanding to 2000, what are your guys thoughts on Thunderwolves and packs of Fenrisian wolves?

Thanks again.

Be aware that your Long fangs are targets of opportunity because of them being so dangerous, so do not totally rely on them completely. Having 2 Assault cannons in the mix is a good idea.

I'm a proponent of letting people think their stuff out with hints of help from the peanut gallery, instead of slapping a list that most everyone uses. The most dangerous player is one that innovates. Knows how to use the terrain and time to their advantage. It makes them a better player overall I believe.

Personally I do not use scouts. Yes they will scare most of newer players, but the old pros, they know how to handle them.

Your army is Armor Infantry I suggest staying with that theme. You have 500 points to work with throw us some ideas and maybe we can give you some suggestions.

Adam

Well, I did have some additional ideas for the 500pts when expanding to 2000 (outside of whats already been talked about of course).

Option 1

4 Thunderwolves and 2 Dreadnoughts

This provides me with a 3 units that can handle close combat to take on things that get past the gunline and also something to deal with troups coming in near my guys such as Snikrot. Also, the two Dreads will provide 2 more assault cannons for more dakka. At this point that would put me with 15 strength 8 shots, 5 strength nine shots, and 16 strength 6 shots going accross the board, plus the psychic shooting attacks. If I'm lucky enough to get turn one this could put a severe hurt on some armies.

Option 2

Add two additional guys to each long fang squad merely to have some extra ability to soak up wounds. 1 Dreadnought, 2 more grey hunter squads with razorbacks. With this outfit I'd be adding more armour, more guns, a bit of a cushion for the longfangs and the dread could also be used to deal out some close combat for those that get close enough. I'm not the biggest fan of this because honestly, I really want to be able to include Thunderwolves (I'm using the High Elf lions from the Chariot...I think it's gonna look awesome.)j

Option 3

5 Wolf Guard w/ Terminator Armour in a Land Raider Crusader. Arm them with Wolf Claws and maybe one with a Thunder Hammer Storm Shield combo. This would provide more armour (Land Raider yay!) with an assault cannot and Hurricane Bolters which I love, plus a really hard hitting assault unit. But this option is kind of expensive.

I like option #1

Option #3 is a 250 point paperweight as people have ways of taking them down.

I want to copy your Option1 to bring my wolves to 2500 haha

Cassiel wrote:
Rune Priest
w/ Terminator Armour
w/ Living Lightning and JOTWW

Rune Priest
w/ Terminator Armour
w/ Living Lightning and JOTWW

Terminator armor should be taken for style purposes only on Rune Priests. Granted, only way to give them an Invulnerable save but its too spendy for a 5++. Also, they each have to have unique wargear and they have to have unique psyker power combinations.

Personally I think JotWW is overrated. I'd drop the Terminator armor from both, take LL and Storm Caller on one and Tempest's Wrath or Murderous Hurricane on the other.

And no Chooser of the Slain? For what it does its a bargain. You have to be mad to not take at least one.

Cassiel wrote:
5 Grey Hunters
w/ Meltagun
Razorback with TL Lascannons

5 Grey Hunters
w/ Meltagun
Razorback with TL Lascannons

5 Grey Hunters
w/ Meltagun
Razorback with TL Lascannons

5 Grey Hunters
Razorback with TL Lascannons

Kind of weak once you get popped out of your tin-can. I'd make at least two of these Rhinos and maybe add a few more Grey Hunters. Have the Rune Priests ride with them and fire out the top. Also if you take Storm Caller you get that cover save to all the vehicles in range of the Rhino he is in so the light armor may survive a bit longer against certain armies.

Cassiel wrote:
6 Long Fangs
w/ Missile Launchers
Razorback with TL Lascannons

6 Long Fangs
w/ Missile Launchers
Razorback with TL Lascannons

6 Long Fangs
w/ Missile Launchers
Razorback with TL Lascannons

Pretty much what everyone wants to take every game. For 1500 points I'd drop a unit entirely though. Even at 1750-1850 I generally only "need" 2 units of Long Fangs. I'll give you 3 is handy, but I find I have trouble keeping them safe from flank attacks in that small of a game.

Cassiel wrote:
So? Whatcha think?

Not particularly original or exciting and despite it seeming to be all the rage I haven't seen that many actually winning tournaments, but the theory is sound. Just remember one thing: Sometime, at some point, you will be out of your transports. I'd really recommend getting some Wolf Guard and two or three extra Grey Hunters in your main force.

You have nothing terrifying in close combat. The assault phase is the most deadly phase in my opinion, and the second most important turn phase in the game (first being Movement). The course of the game gets changed in assault. You're rocking a close quarters specialist army without any combat punch. It's a bit silly. Get some power weapons, Wolf Standards at the least.

Also, your Long Fangs will be exposed. Very, very exposed. Their LOS will be blocked by your own vehicles in many cases and you don't have any real units supporting them. If you don't apply pressure correctly, someone is going to tear through them and it won't be with their elite shock troops. On the plus side Dawn of War will be easier for you.

Agree that three ML long fang units seems to have diminishing returns. I used to run three and found that depolyment and LOS became an issue with that many stationary infantry models trying to shoot heavies. Two units on the other hand stillprovides a nice bit of high strength fire power but allows the list to be moreflexible as a whole.

This is such a snoozefest list, IMO. If you want to go straight cookie-cutter, get your RP's out of terminator armor and equipped correctly, giving you the points for the final melta (or flamer) and maybe a lascan LF instead of one of the ML's.