Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Does anyone else think that terminators should have different stat lines than regular marines besides the +1 attack and armor? I would think that since they are more battle hardened that they should have +1 toughness atleast. Maybe +1 WS, but given that terminator armor is pretty bulky I can see that remaining the same.

Billagio wrote:Does anyone else think that terminators should have different stat lines than regular marines besides the +1 attack and armor? I would think that since they are more battle hardened that they should have +1 toughness atleast. Maybe +1 WS, but given that terminator armor is pretty bulky I can see that remaining the same.

I ALWAYS house rule a S5 and T5. I just leave everything else the same.

I wish my friends would let me do that. Unfortunately, I am the only one who really uses terminators, so I doubt they'd go along with it

If they were +1S/T then their points would go up even more... and they'd be used even less. Hard to balance.

Marines are S4/T4. That's just what they are. Most space marine heroes, including such characters as Grimnar and Dante, are S4/T4. A 2+/5++ save is perfect for Terminators. A boost to S/T would break them.

Especially at their cost, they'd need to make them about 50 or 60 points, also T5 is pretty rare, Necron lychguard have it but then again they are literally made of adamantium (or Living Metal).

Agreed, i dont think terminators need S5 T5. Maybe modifier T5... but once a unit becomes T5 it becomes immune to a lot of instant death weaponry. I beleive their toughness is reflected in the 5+ invunerable save.. or 3+ w/ a stormshield and the ability to carry heavy items like chainfists, lightning claws, and thunderfury hammers

Billagio wrote:Does anyone else think that terminators should have different stat lines than regular marines besides the +1 attack and armor? I would think that since they are more battle hardened that they should have +1 toughness atleast. Maybe +1 WS, but given that terminator armor is pretty bulky I can see that remaining the same.

Eh, not +1 Ws but +1 toughness makes sense to me.

What I don't get is how if a Marines's strength is already enhanced by the armor, shouldn't the Terminators also be enhanced even more?

Apparently the difference between S3 and S4 is being able to pick up a few hundred extra kilos. Then from S4 to S5 would be... well, another couple hundred kilos. The recoil on an Assault Cannon would be at the very least almost one ton, and being able to withstand that would take a lot.

Terminators should get an increase in Str, but not toughness (I think the 2+ armor save covers that well enough), but the extra strength granted by the terminator armor should be represented in game.

I think if they had 2 Wounds standard it would work better.

I miss my WS 5 Grey Knight Termies...

T5 would be ok, but I think they'd need to be downgraded in another way or have their points increased.

T4(5) at most. But still, marines are T/S4. How it is and always will be.

T4 2+ armour 3+ inv not enough!

Terminators are already immune to most small arms fire anyway, they only suffer from plasma guns against which they wouldn't benefit. Do we want it to take 72 lasguns to kill one terminator when one plasma pistol can do it?

Billagio wrote:Does anyone else think that terminators should have different stat lines than regular marines besides the +1 attack and armor?

No.

I think with 2 wounds or toughness 5 (even toughness 4(5) ) they'd have to increase in points... if somebody tried to house rules S5 T5 ... i'd find anotther house to play at.

G00fySmiley wrote:I think with 2 wounds or toughness 5 (even toughness 4(5) ) they'd have to increase in points... if somebody tried to house rules S5 T5 ... i'd find anotther house to play at.

Two wound termis have been done before. And people hated them. Except the people who play them.

Cerebrium wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:I think with 2 wounds or toughness 5 (even toughness 4(5) ) they'd have to increase in points... if somebody tried to house rules S5 T5 ... i'd find anotther house to play at.

Two wound termis have been done before. And people hated them. Except the people who play them.

They exist as Paladins currently, but at least they are cost appropriate.

I like terminators as they are, heck I have 15 regular and 15 assault... I don't play my SM much (ok I have never played them, but I have a lot of the models and use them as a loaner army), but i feel terminators are very good at what you get for the points, anything more and they'd be broken.

Billagio wrote:Does anyone else think that terminators should have different stat lines than regular marines besides the +1 attack and armor? I would think that since they are more battle hardened that they should have +1 toughness atleast. Maybe +1 WS, but given that terminator armor is pretty bulky I can see that remaining the same.

Consider the following:

Space marines are the equal of 10 men in strength toughness and all other capabilities (quoted from an imperial general who said "give me 100 space marines. Failing that, give me 1000 other troops")

Yet they only have +1 S and T over guardsman.

So based on this, terminators, if they had +1 S and T on space marines would be the equal of 10 space marines in power (the next lowest character, as space marines are to imperial guard). If this were the case, they would be tough enough to withstand the strikes of genestealers, and strong enough that with powerfists they would equal a carnifex. The fluff says this is untrue, as never has a terminator gone power fist to claw with a carnifex and won out of sheer strength. Also, were they this tough, they would be the equal of monstrous creatures who are 4 to 8 feet taller than they are, as well as the equal in strength of people with arms made out of pure adamantium or the xenos equivalent. Each tic of strength and toughness is an order of magnitude because of the base 10 system in 40k. Even with all that armor the changes it brings simply aren't significant enough to warrant an increased S and T modifier. That's why they get power fists standard (something described as incredably heavy to hold) and additional attacks base (each has 3 attacks on the charge after all, more with furious charge from the red thirst if you're a ba player). It's also why they can weild a thunder hammer with one hand and a storm shield in the other, where as other space marines take two hands to weild either. they're increased strength is shown in their equipment rather than their stats because even tho they're stronger, they're not strong enough to warrant the boosted stats

dbsamurai wrote:

Billagio wrote:Does anyone else think that terminators should have different stat lines than regular marines besides the +1 attack and armor? I would think that since they are more battle hardened that they should have +1 toughness atleast. Maybe +1 WS, but given that terminator armor is pretty bulky I can see that remaining the same.

Consider the following:

Space marines are the equal of 10 men in strength toughness and all other capabilities (quoted from an imperial general who said "give me 100 space marines. Failing that, give me 1000 other troops")

Yet they only have +1 S and T over guardsman.

So based on this, terminators, if they had +1 S and T on space marines would be the equal of 10 space marines in power (the next lowest character, as space marines are to imperial guard).

Or, you know, the scale is logarithmical and as such doesn't mean that S10 is one MILLION times as strong as an Astartes...

considering the raw might of a railgun (The most powerful gun in the game and most powerful weapon known to modern technology short of the titanic energies of fusion at the heart of a sun) compared to the power of an astartes, my standard progression seems more likely than a logarithmic function, since in that case the strength value of something with S1 would be in the negatives using a standard log function.

Just going to say now-

Railgun is inferior to lets say a vortex missle in game and fluff.

Infact most titan weapons, and alot of the stuff the Ad mech is hiding and the sheer psyker power weilded by some sorcerors and Daemons in the warp all outclass rail guns. (Hell, why blow things up when SPAWN or create rifts into the warp and drag the enemy in?)

And isn't plasma the same fusion reaction from the heart of the sun in the palm of your hand?

On subject- I think terminators are fine as is. Make them any tougher and the points cost would be horrific. Table top rules don't translate to fluff very well, you all know this chaps!

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:Just going to say now-

Railgun is inferior to lets say a vortex missle in game and fluff.

Infact most titan weapons, and alot of the stuff the Ad mech is hiding and the sheer psyker power weilded by some sorcerors and Daemons in the warp all outclass rail guns. (Hell, why blow things up when SPAWN or create rifts into the warp and drag the enemy in?)

And isn't plasma the same fusion reaction from the heart of the sun in the palm of your hand?

On subject- I think terminators are fine as is. Make them any tougher and the points cost would be horrific. Table top rules don't translate to fluff very well, you all know this chaps!

Plasma is just another state of matter, and a super-hot one at that. Heat something up enough, and it will become plasma.

Railguns are indeed powerful, and a titan-scale railgun could have a longer range than any other weapon, except, of course, missiles. Currently, battleship cannons can fire their rounds that weigh over one ton more than 20 miles (32 km). A railgun is that, but it fires the round at a much, much higher velocity. A railgun the size of a battleship cannon could send a round with double the kinetic energy double the distance (perhaps more, actually, this sentence is based on all of the math I didn't do). Also, http://www.dailytech.com/Navy+Railgun+Fires+33megajoule+Shot+/article20372.htm the Navy stated they could send a round 110 nautical miles out of a railgun.

While railguns in WH40k are small beans compared to Titan armaments, scale a railgun up and you have a very effective weapon that would be capable of taking out ships in low orbit, as well as any titan that gets in the way.

McNinja wrote:
While railguns in WH40k are small beans compared to Titan armaments, scale a railgun up and you have a very effective weapon that would be capable of taking out ships in low orbit, as well as any titan that gets in the way.

The Imperium already has energy weapons that do this: Defense Lasers.

I don't see why Terminators need to be altered at all. Me and a buddy did 10 lightning claw terminators vs full Ork Boy squadrons. I killed 90 boyz, and 3 nobz , and then died to the last squad.

Do we really need to make terminators anymore powerful than they already are? I'm Chaos and I can't even do half as much as you imperialist Terminators are capable of and I feel mine are balanced.

I feel that they should be upped to 4(5) with a points increase. This accomplishes three things:

1) These guys are in Tactical Dreadnought Armor. It would be nice if they weren't wounded one out of every two successful shots from a pistol.

2) It would not increase their effectivness against S8 weapons. For those characters that are currently T4 and have the option of taking Terminator Armor, this is an important distinction.

3) It makes Terminators more rare. With the exception of Dark Angels, these suits of armor are the most rare form of base equipment the Adeptus Astartes have. I would not be opposed to seeing less of these on the field while reducing the number of incoming wounds they are taking.

I keep hearing a lot about making terminators two wound models. Does that mean that my Grey Knight Paladins get three wounds now? Damn. Nobs would be really fethed then.

I would like to see Assault Terminators WS5 and Dakka Terminators with BS5. They are the veterans of space marines which means their stats should reflect that

I think the only stat that could use a tweak is WS. Altering S/T to match some perceived fluff (fluff =/= rules) would alter their balance distinctly. Having 2+/3++ is already fantastic.

For game balance alone, leave termies as they are. Fluff doesn't match rules, nor should it influence people to think that awesome armour should have bonuses to S/T.

If you want two wound termies, Grey Knight Draigowing is for you.

I think the Dark Angels may get an upgrade to their terminators...maybe...okay, fine, this is just wishlisting, but a guy can hope right?

I understand the need to show that terminator armour is tougher and stronger than power armour, but I think the improved save (2+/5++ vs 3+) and the ability to carry super powerful weapons the increase their strength (powerfists, chainfists, and thunderhammer) makes enough of a difference now.

I really don't think most terminators are balanced at all. I'm not saying they are over powered, I think they are really weak. I play Eldar, and I have never been impressed by Terminator's performance.

They just cost too many points for a single toughness 4 wound. I would actually say that the 40 point Assault Terminators are priced right in the Vanilla dex, and the Tactical Terminators could use a serious price reduction.

Sure they save on a 2+, but everybody rolls 1s. and each 1 is at least 40 points down the drain, and melta + plasma weapons aren't hard to come by or anything.

Tactical Terminators need a buff in a big way, they are not worth over 200 for 5 and a CML or AssCannon.