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Alright, so this turned into an argument throughout a game yesterday, and we never came to a true conclusion, so I was hoping to get some additional feedback.

The problem in question is a spell in the Chaos Dwarf army in the Tamurkhan book. I don't have the book on me at the moment, but the spell says that all friendly units within 12" get hatred. It is also a remains in play.

Heres the problem: There was a unit that got effected by the spell who was already on its 3rd round of combat... Does it get rerolls that round?

One side said yes, because it gives them rerolls the first round that they gain hatred.
Another side said no, hatred is only on the first round of combat.

Personally I do not think they would get it. Hatred specifically says the first round of combat, and if it was meant to give them rerolls for a combat regardless of what round, it would likely give the units "rerolls to hit" just like other various spells. Because they are already past the first round of combat, I would think they would have missed their chance at hatred.

But I want to know what everyone else thinks?

Considering beastmen hatred happens any round of combat I would say yes it does not matter what round you are in

Then again, Beastmen Hatred is rolled for every turn and specifically states you get those re-rolls every time. This scenario is completely different in that the unit is getting run-of-the-mill Hatred 3 combats in. Personally I would say they would get re-rolls though, since I always read the Hatred rule to be:

"A unit with this special rule will re-roll any failed rolls to hit in the first round of combat (in which they had the Hatred special rule)."

^ The man with the awesome name makes a very valid point

The other comparison to draw is with flagellants, who gain hatred through martyrdom- and that works in whatever round it's been generated. Not saying its enough to say one way or another, but just some food for thought.

I wouldn't mind being hated on by chaos dwarves, i mean i never even get to play against them

I would say they get it in the 1st round they get the hatred in, even if it isn't the first round of that combat, and from then on they follow the normal stipulations.

Seems like plenty a valid argument to me, but out of curiosity does the Beastmen and Flagellant rules say specifically that they get to use them in that round of combat? If not then I'd be completely convinced that the spell works regardless of round, but if it does say specifically that they get it that round then I'm not sure.

I guess I also got the impression that since it was a remains in play it was more intended to be cast before combat because you wouldn't get it after the first round.

At any rate thanks for the comparisons, and if anyone could see if the rules specifically say anything that would be great.

From the Empire 1.2 FAQ
Q. When a player martyrs Flagellants in a second or subsequent round of combat, do they get to re-roll missed attacks? (p54)
A. Yes.

This is meant to clarify Martyr effect #1 (which can be earned each round); "The Flagellants Hate all enemies."

Take it for what it's worth since, as RZ noted above, it's hardly definitive for CDs.

I would take those FAQs as precedence for a unit getting hatred in subsequent rounds of combat benifiting from it.


it isn't complete proof, but its a good indicator of the eventual answer.

Not any use here in terms of hard "RAW", but at GD UK I did manage to get to speak to the writers of the book*, and they agreed it was supposed to work like Flaggelants - so hatred the first round the spell is cast on you, regardless of which round of combat that actually was.

AS I said - not any use here, but an indication of intent from the horses mouth. It's how I would rule it here


*looooove the book. Seriously pretty book. I essentially ran to the FW stand to make sure i got a copy! Dearly wanted my next fantasy tourney to include it, but too many people havent seen the book, and there was concern over it slowing the game down

Most Special Rules are in effect all the time. Hatred obviously can't travel backwards in time and let you re-roll something from previous rounds. If you apply Hatred on round 30, that rule is now on Round One.

I think arguing otherwise is rather jerky.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
*looooove the book. Seriously pretty book. I essentially ran to the FW stand to make sure i got a copy! Dearly wanted my next fantasy tourney to include it, but too many people havent seen the book, and there was concern over it slowing the game down

Glad to hear its good.


I hope it gets accepted. I really don't see how it would slow stuff down any more then a player playing against a particular army for the first time. No different from a new army book getting released or a person playing against a particular army for the first time.

As long as the TO has read it and approved the list then all should be fine. The competitive scene needs more FW stuff to get bounced around.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

*looooove the book. Seriously pretty book. I essentially ran to the FW stand to make sure i got a copy! Dearly wanted my next fantasy tourney to include it, but too many people havent seen the book, and there was concern over it slowing the game down

Thanks for the comments Nos. I really like the screenshots I've seen of it. I plan to get it as some point, but it'll have to wait until I can justify the purchase price with a little more padding in the wallet!

Sell a kidney if you have to - such a good book, the story is damn good, amazing quality of the artwork (not photos of minis) especially the nurglings on the illuminated chapter heading double pages, and the army list is very, very interesting. Plus, infernal guard are some of the literally sexiest models i've ever seen..seriously, resin models shouldnt give you a semi!

I *am* the TO, and do accept it, but its so different to the other books (not a unit in there that people will recognise, and some e.g. blunderbuss takes some getting used to) that I wanted to give the book some more air time first. I'll have the book to hand when i run it, to get people a read of it during the day at least.

Well with all the given examples I'd say I'm convinced
Seems more or less than it was meant to play out like other similar rules so thanks for all the feedback everyone!

I also agree that the book is absolutely brilliant, easily worth the money (which is surprising considering how expensive it is). I have yet to get into the story much, but the few fluff articles on the characters are especially great (such as Sayl, I think that guy is beyond awesome in terms of fluff).

There's a few people who play the Chaos Dwarf list at my local GW and wow... needless to say they can be pretty ridiculous. I'm not sure if I would say they are overpowered, but the shooting units easily overcome stuff in combat (I've seen them plow through entire units of Saurus with no trouble at all).

I want to see how they match up against a few other armies before I can really decide how crazy they are though. Anyone else seen them against other armies? I've only seen them against lizards and daemons thus far.

I'm going to have to jump in on the other side here. I suggest another precedent: If I bring a priest into a unit with lore of shadow, and then in the next phase I swap him out and then immediately swap him back in using two spells, does the unit get hatred again?

Hatred works in the first round, full stop. IMO.

^ I would say the priest has hatred but the unit he is jumping in and out of does not

Malleus - apart from the two occasions where it doesnt..

So, your full stop is wrong.

That makes way more sense now. I hadn't seen the FAQ on the martyr rule until now.

Playing against them twice already, I can say they are a pretty hard army to go up against. Its like playing against regular dwafs but with iron breakers as troops along with having magic and monsters. Bull centaurs are so beefy with their high toughness and armor save. I ran two stegadons and two units of saurus into them (one on the flank) on the same turn and still couldn't break them.

The warmachines are pretty hard to. More wounds than a hellcannon and some pretty nasty rules.

The blunderbuss are sort of overrated. On paper they are nice but the limited range and lower strength kind of kills them. Fireglaives on the other hand I can see doing much better just becasue they have the extra range and double as a halberd.

I haven't played against them with my daemons so we'll see how that goes. I think my regular list I run could handle the CD on account of everything is magical, less trouble against kadai, and having bloodletters should have a little easier time with the infernal guard.

Going a little off topic. I agree now that the spell does give hatred rerolls beyond first turn combat.

Going off topic, where are the chaos dwarves in the army list?
They have stats in the unit entries, along with rules for blunder bus. But the only chaos dwarf you find are crewmen to the warmachines, and the unit champion listed in the army section is impossible to field.
Looks like FW left a core choice out of the list.

-Matt

They where in fact prevented from sclupting anything but warmachine crews.
I remember someone mentioning it in a news thread way back, GW don't want them undermining dwarven conversion buying.

Isn't there an entire unit? Infernal guard?

Yep, infernal guard which are incredibly amazing models...