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HQ : Overlord, warscythe, phaeron, phase shifter, scarabs, sempiternal weave - 195 pts

Royal court : 5x cryptek, 4x destruction, 1 solar pulse, 1x eternity, 1 chronometron - 200 pts

3x lord, 1 warscythe, 1 scarabs, 1 sempiternal weave, 3x orb - 235 pts


Troops : 10x immortals, gauss - 170 pts

10x immortals, gauss - 170 pts


970 pts



This is, I think, a good choice of units to begin with, seems quite logical fluffwise etc. I would, however, also like this list to be competitive. I have been thinking about the best combinations and this is what I came up with, even though the chronometron can be changed to a veil of darkness with the leftover points.

This is quite straightforward I must admit, but it seems efficient to me :


Cryptek court stay together and either stay in cover and hunt tanks or take a veil and... hunt tanks.


Lords are dispatched evenly between the three squads (2x immortals and cryptek), giving an orb to each (seems necessary in a footsloggers list). The phaeron joins the immortal squad joined by the warscythe+scarabs lord to advance and capture objectives, whilst the other squad claims the objective closest to me.

Thats 28 models in total, 20 rapid fire str5 gauss weapons, 4 buffed up 36 str8 ap 2 shots, and 2 warscythes+ scarabs for CC after showering with shots. Everything gets back up on a 4+

What do you think dakka, fail?

I'm seeing 8 Court members, but only one Overlord.
...
How is this possible?

skoffs wrote:I'm seeing 8 Court members, but only one Overlord.
...
How is this possible?

You can include 10 in your court, 5 lords and 5 cryties. Now the illegality is that only one model total from the court can leave for units so only two of them are branching off.

Overall your going to get hammered at the first sight of a LR crusader spilling out termies or any solid vehicle spam (edit-In order to be competitive you probably will need scarabs and spyders in order to pop vehicles)

lazarian wrote:You can include 10 in your court, 5 lords and 5 cryties

Holy hell, that was REAL?!
(I thought it was just someone's wishful interpretation of the Royal Court rules. Hadn't seen anything further confirming it, so just figured everyone was going by the "it's either five of this OR this, not five AND five" interpretation)
Damn, time to go back to the drawing board over those lists I was working on!
...
until the FAQ hits and runs everyone's party.

lazarian wrote:

skoffs wrote:I'm seeing 8 Court members, but only one Overlord.
...
How is this possible?

You can include 10 in your court, 5 lords and 5 cryties. Now the illegality is that only one model total from the court can leave for units so only two of them are branching off.

Overall your going to get hammered at the first sight of a LR crusader spilling out termies or any solid vehicle spam (edit-In order to be competitive you probably will need scarabs and spyders in order to pop vehicles)

Nonsense. You can take 0-5 lords AND 0-5 cryptek, and they can ALL either be dispatched in a unit or stay as a court.

Also, termies + crusader at 1k points? Yeah, right. And even so, 5 longfangs + 20 gauss shots is enough to wreck it just thanks to superficial dmg before it gets to my lines, and then the termies are gonna get rapid fired and the ones that are left will just be mind controlled and kill each other before the lord and overlord chop up whatever's still standing. I understand this list will have problems, but what you talked about is not one of them.

And seriously, the codex has been out 1 month and already scarab farm is the only viable list? So dakka is a sheep farm or what?


I mean thanks for the input and all, but at least get the facts right first.



Vehicle spam might or might not be a problem. I'm impatient to try it out, but I think the rerollable d6 for the lances and the two fat gauss teams should handle it. Not sure though I must admit.

Bond wrote:And seriously, the codex has been out 1 month and already scarab farm is the only viable list?

Hey! I will not stand idly by while my beloved WraithWing is disregarded from viability!

I think horde armies will end up stomping you, whilst the lords/crypteks are nice the bulk of your firepower is coming from 20 immortals with rapid fire weaponry which wont stop people getting close.

Counter may be to get a few crypteks with tremor staves attatched to those units to reduce your opponents effective move.

Bond wrote:

lazarian wrote:

skoffs wrote:I'm seeing 8 Court members, but only one Overlord.
...
How is this possible?

You can include 10 in your court, 5 lords and 5 cryties. Now the illegality is that only one model total from the court can leave for units so only two of them are branching off.

Overall your going to get hammered at the first sight of a LR crusader spilling out termies or any solid vehicle spam (edit-In order to be competitive you probably will need scarabs and spyders in order to pop vehicles)

Nonsense. You can take 0-5 lords AND 0-5 cryptek, and they can ALL either be dispatched in a unit or stay as a court.

Also, termies + crusader at 1k points? Yeah, right. And even so, 5 longfangs + 20 gauss shots is enough to wreck it just thanks to superficial dmg before it gets to my lines, and then the termies are gonna get rapid fired and the ones that are left will just be mind controlled and kill each other before the lord and overlord chop up whatever's still standing. I understand this list will have problems, but what you talked about is not one of them.

And seriously, the codex has been out 1 month and already scarab farm is the only viable list? So dakka is a sheep farm or what?


I mean thanks for the input and all, but at least get the facts right first.



Vehicle spam might or might not be a problem. I'm impatient to try it out, but I think the rerollable d6 for the lances and the two fat gauss teams should handle it. Not sure though I must admit.

Well played.

Couple of options to consider. Swapping either one of the Destructions or the Eternity for a Harp of Dissonance for AV 14 contingency.

Also you may want to go with Gauntlets of Fire on the Lord that will be running with the Overlord for some anti-Horde counter measures.

To be honest, I'm not overly impressed.

Any run-of-the-mill Space Wolf list with 2x5 'Fangs with 5x missiles will pose serious problems for this list, as they'll likely focus fire on the crypteks and nail them early on (after the pulse is popped. Then after that, all the list really has is a bunch of wanna-be-combat immortals and a lord... not super terrified.

Not to mention; this list has serious issues with fast assaulters. Most people play on a 4ft by 4ft at 1k, and a unit of 8 toxinstealers would savage those immortals no problems. I will say though, I do like this army in kill-points...

Overall, the list is pretty decent, but I feel like the Newcron dex can be pushed much further.

Try out some annihilation barges, they really are the best bang for buck in the book. Best of luck!

Holy hell, that was REAL?!
(I thought it was just someone's wishful interpretation of the Royal Court rules. Hadn't seen anything further confirming it, so just figured everyone was going by the "it's either five of this OR this, not five AND five" interpretation)
Damn, time to go back to the drawing board over those lists I was working on!
...
until the FAQ hits and runs everyone's party.

You can take up to 5 Lords AND up to 5 Crypteks per Court. How is that in anyway unclear or in need of an FAQ?

HQ : Overlord, warscythe, phaeron, phase shifter, scarabs, sempiternal weave - 195 pts
Royal court : 5x cryptek, 4x destruction, 1 solar pulse, 1x eternity, 1 chronometron - 200 pts
3x lord, 1 warscythe, 1 scarabs, 1 sempiternal weave, 3x orb - 235 pts
Troops : 10x immortals, gauss - 170 pts
10x immortals, gauss - 170 pts


970 pts

You have way too much invested in the Court. I think the basis of an Overlord with a Warscythe (maybe Phareon) is solid. 1-2 HoD Crypteks (always take the Pulse on 1) is fine. 2 Squads of Immortals are also fine but at the same time I'd go Tesla.

Overlord with Scythe-100
2 HoD, 1 with Pulse-90
10 Tesla Immortals-170
10 Tesla Immortals-170

Gives you a core of 530. From here you have to look at what you don't have. You have little anti tank and next to no CC ability. If you are set on the Cryptek mini Long Fang squad you could take 3 more at 105. Split 2 into units and walk three with the Lord. So that's 635.

From here I would add Wraiths, Scarabs,Spyders in some combination. These units bring duality that you desperately need. Two units of 6 Scarabs is 180 points. 5 Wraiths with 2 whip coils is 195. In total that's 1010, so cut a Scarab or the Lord's Warscythe.

Then you have:
Overlord
5 HoD, 1 with Pulse
10 Tesla Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
6 Scarabs
6 Scarabs
5 Wraiths, 2 with coils.

That army is far more balanced and presents a number of threats.

JGrand wrote:

Holy hell, that was REAL?!
(I thought it was just someone's wishful interpretation of the Royal Court rules. Hadn't seen anything further confirming it, so just figured everyone was going by the "it's either five of this OR this, not five AND five" interpretation)
Damn, time to go back to the drawing board over those lists I was working on!
...
until the FAQ hits and runs everyone's party.

You can take up to 5 Lords AND up to 5 Crypteks per Court. How is that in anyway unclear or in need of an FAQ?

HQ : Overlord, warscythe, phaeron, phase shifter, scarabs, sempiternal weave - 195 pts
Royal court : 5x cryptek, 4x destruction, 1 solar pulse, 1x eternity, 1 chronometron - 200 pts
3x lord, 1 warscythe, 1 scarabs, 1 sempiternal weave, 3x orb - 235 pts
Troops : 10x immortals, gauss - 170 pts
10x immortals, gauss - 170 pts


970 pts

You have way too much invested in the Court. I think the basis of an Overlord with a Warscythe (maybe Phareon) is solid. 1-2 HoD Crypteks (always take the Pulse on 1) is fine. 2 Squads of Immortals are also fine but at the same time I'd go Tesla.

Overlord with Scythe-100
2 HoD, 1 with Pulse-90
10 Tesla Immortals-170
10 Tesla Immortals-170

Gives you a core of 530. From here you have to look at what you don't have. You have little anti tank and next to no CC ability. If you are set on the Cryptek mini Long Fang squad you could take 3 more at 105. Split 2 into units and walk three with the Lord. So that's 635.

From here I would add Wraiths, Scarabs,Spyders in some combination. These units bring duality that you desperately need. Two units of 6 Scarabs is 180 points. 5 Wraiths with 2 whip coils is 195. In total that's 1010, so cut a Scarab or the Lord's Warscythe.

Then you have:
Overlord
5 HoD, 1 with Pulse
10 Tesla Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
6 Scarabs
6 Scarabs
5 Wraiths, 2 with coils.

That army is far more balanced and presents a number of threats.

You just took his list and made it a completely different list.

Dakka can be so funny at times.

The lords are providing res orbs and defending the immortals from CC. That should be obvious. It's like if BA's could make their PF upgrade sergeant into a priest (and costs about the same). And a lord with a WS and MSS>>>Sergeant with a PF.

He has 20 (+Rapid Fire)Gauss shots 4 War Scythes and very nasty TH squad. Little to know anti-tank? At 1k that is plenty sufficient.

He has 4 WS and 4 MSS, little to no CC?

.....

You just took his list and made it a completely different list.

Dakka can be so funny at times.

He wanted a balanced list. His was not. I assume that someone who is posting in the army list section is asking for help making their list more competitive. If not, why would they care what they take, right? If someone wanted to make a for fun list, why ask for help? Just take crap like the original one.

The lords are providing res orbs and defending the immortals from CC. That should be obvious. It's like if BA's could make their PF upgrade sergeant into a priest (and costs about the same). And a lord with a WS and MSS>>>Sergeant with a PF.

Ah the commentary of a Marine player. You cannot play xenos armies in the same way marines are played. If this Immortal unit with attached Lord is charged by a similar amount of points of Blood Angels, they will be swept. There is no reason that Necron squads should worry about having "a sergeant with power fist." They should be accomplishing their role of shooting, taking objectives, and kiting the enemy. Again, this is not a MEQ army. Trying to shoehorn Tac Squad tactics into Immortals is wrong.

He has 20 (+Rapid Fire)Gauss shots 4 War Scythes and very nasty TH squad. Little to know anti-tank? At 1k that is plenty sufficient.

Glancing to death...great. Until you play Grey Knights and they ignore 2/3 of your results. But hey, at 24" if they don't move, 10 Immortals will average a whole 1 glancing hit. Sounds like awesome anti tank to me.....

He has 4 WS and 4 MSS, little to no CC?

.....

I'll come back to this later.

Thanks for the comments everyone, even though I dont agree with some of them :


I will focus long fangs just as much as they focus me, and I have a 4+ RP which they dont + the solar pulse, so I dont see myself losing that firefight.

Exept for the lord that goes with the phaeron and 1 squad of immortals the others have staff of light, si I think tactical marines will just get raped in a firefight also.


I agree however that very fast assaulters and hordes will be a problem, but come on, pop a transport with the cryptek then rapid fire with the phaeron squad should be quite efficient for 1 turn of shooting as well as surviving the following assault thx to the MSS and warscythes. If str5 ap 4 rapid fire shots cant take care of hordes immortals just suck.



Also keep in mind that 6th ed is coming and that gauss is, to me, the ONLY option, because if the rapid fire rumors are true, the combo with phaeron will be a monstrosity.


Jgrand I thought your last post was impolite towards me and the person you were adressing, but whatever. I doubt GK will be much trouble due to low model count 4x ap2 str8 shots (+ chronometron or veil and ap1 flamer) and 10x2 rapid fire, + MSS ans warscythes



On the whole, even though the votes are bad (I myself cast the first vote and voted "bad list" just because I didnt want to blow my own horn), the comments are encouraging, most of the negative comments are actually easy to counter and bad appreciations of the list ( obviously its easier for me since I know how its supposed to work), and there are some positive comments.


Thank you for your support those who wrote positive comments, and thanks to those who criticized, highlighting the weaknesses of the list.

Since no one seems to be able to find an alternative to mech or scarab farm, I'll just stay with this list for now, and will try out different cryptek combos to see which is most efficient.


I read every 1000 pts list posted on warseer, dakka and the french forums, and exept for eldar and DE which I dont know much about (I can therefore not evaluate my chances) and ork horde armies + heavy mech IG (both against which I would probably lose if the player is good I must admit, still depends a lot on terrain and gak), I have not seen a list which I thought I could not beat (MEQ, including GK, actually seems like the easiest matchup)


Also, yes I think the harp of dissonance is a good idea, will try it out. The barges are obviously a good choice, but Im trying to avoid mech since this is the only viable (?) non-mech army exept for tyranids. Wraiths are obviously great and my alternative list is also wraithwing+ destroyer lord, but I'm trying to avoid playing that or scarab farm.

I will focus long fangs just as much as they focus me, and I have a 4+ RP which they dont + the solar pulse, so I dont see myself losing that firefight.

Exept for the lord that goes with the phaeron and 1 squad of immortals the others have staff of light, si I think tactical marines will just get raped in a firefight also.


I agree however that very fast assaulters and hordes will be a problem, but come on, pop a transport with the cryptek then rapid fire with the phaeron squad should be quite efficient for 1 turn of shooting as well as surviving the following assault thx to the MSS and warscythes. If str5 ap 4 rapid fire shots cant take care of hordes immortals just suck.

You have one turn to shoot in which they cannot shoot....after which you have one dedicated anti tank unit (Crypteks). A good opponent takes that out and you are going to try to glance things to death...good luck.

Also keep in mind that 6th ed is coming and that gauss is, to me, the ONLY option, because if the rapid fire rumors are true, the combo with phaeron will be a monstrosity.

At least 7 months and they are just rumors.

Jgrand I thought your last post was impolite towards me and the person you were adressing, but whatever. I doubt GK will be much trouble due to low model count 4x ap2 str8 shots (+ chronometron or veil and ap1 flamer) and 100x2 rapid fire, + MSS ans warscythes

My original post was nothing but helpful. I looked at your list under the assumption that you wanted to make a competitive one....sorry. I stand by everything I said.

How do you plan on dealing with a competitive mech GK army to get them out of vehicles? You have one unit. Literally 1 that can pop their transports. If you played Crowe, 3 Rhinos with 5 Purifiers (2 Psycannons each) and 2 Psyfleman you will lose. Everytime. Of 3 squads of Long Fangs, 1 Rune Priest, and 3 7 man Grey Hunter squads in Rhinos. You will lose, everytime. How about my TAC 1000 DE list? 2 Haemys, 2 8 Wyches in Raiders, 2 5 man Warrior Venoms, and 2 Ravagers. You will lose, everytime. You have no way to pop tanks effectively and your bloated units still lose in assault to dedicated close combat.




Criticism in not inherently people trying to hurt your feelings. I was trying to help. There was nothing personal about it. You made a bad list, I made a good one. You do not have a competitive list and the majorette agrees.

I read every 1000 pts list posted on warseer, dakka and the french forums, and exept for eldar and DE which I dont know much about (I can therefore not evaluate my chances) and ork horde armies + heavy mech IG (both against which I would probably lose if the player is good I must admit, still depends a lot on terrain and gak), I have not seen a list which I thought I could not beat (MEQ, including GK, actually seems like the easiest matchup)

I've given you three auto losses. If you want me to make a competitive TAC list for every dex that you will likely run into, I could. You will lose to all of them without making a more balanced list.

JGrand wrote:

Holy hell, that was REAL?!
(I thought it was just someone's wishful interpretation of the Royal Court rules. Hadn't seen anything further confirming it, so just figured everyone was going by the "it's either five of this OR this, not five AND five" interpretation)
Damn, time to go back to the drawing board over those lists I was working on!
...
until the FAQ hits and runs everyone's party.

You can take up to 5 Lords AND up to 5 Crypteks per Court. How is that in anyway unclear or in need of an FAQ?

HQ : Overlord, warscythe, phaeron, phase shifter, scarabs, sempiternal weave - 195 pts
Royal court : 5x cryptek, 4x destruction, 1 solar pulse, 1x eternity, 1 chronometron - 200 pts
3x lord, 1 warscythe, 1 scarabs, 1 sempiternal weave, 3x orb - 235 pts
Troops : 10x immortals, gauss - 170 pts
10x immortals, gauss - 170 pts


970 pts

You have way too much invested in the Court. I think the basis of an Overlord with a Warscythe (maybe Phareon) is solid. 1-2 HoD Crypteks (always take the Pulse on 1) is fine. 2 Squads of Immortals are also fine but at the same time I'd go Tesla.

Overlord with Scythe-100
2 HoD, 1 with Pulse-90
10 Tesla Immortals-170
10 Tesla Immortals-170

Gives you a core of 530. From here you have to look at what you don't have. You have little anti tank and next to no CC ability. If you are set on the Cryptek mini Long Fang squad you could take 3 more at 105. Split 2 into units and walk three with the Lord. So that's 635.

From here I would add Wraiths, Scarabs,Spyders in some combination. These units bring duality that you desperately need. Two units of 6 Scarabs is 180 points. 5 Wraiths with 2 whip coils is 195. In total that's 1010, so cut a Scarab or the Lord's Warscythe.

Then you have:
Overlord
5 HoD, 1 with Pulse
10 Tesla Immortals
10 Tesla Immortals
6 Scarabs
6 Scarabs
5 Wraiths, 2 with coils.

That army is far more balanced and presents a number of threats.

Also, J Grand you seem like an experienced player, but I am not more impressed with your list than you are with mine : scarabs are great, but not THAT great, and if they are focused, units of 6 will just die or not do anything worthwhile. Also, even though I DO consider wraiths to be a no-brainer, they WILL die to saturation fire or to experienced CC units. Anyhow, I figure if I put up my list against yours, mine actually has a good chance of winning. Or maybe you just forgot the spyders which would make it more threatening. other than that, 4+ RP all over the place will give me the advantage in shooting, whilst getting into CC will cost you some losses before you run into the overlord and the 2x MSS + his lord/warscythe wingman

I will focus long fangs just as much as they focus me, and I have a 4+ RP which they dont + the solar pulse, so I dont see myself losing that firefight.

Exept for the lord that goes with the phaeron and 1 squad of immortals the others have staff of light, si I think tactical marines will just get raped in a firefight also.


I agree however that very fast assaulters and hordes will be a problem, but come on, pop a transport with the cryptek then rapid fire with the phaeron squad should be quite efficient for 1 turn of shooting as well as surviving the following assault thx to the MSS and warscythes. If str5 ap 4 rapid fire shots cant take care of hordes immortals just suck.

You have one turn to shoot in which they cannot shoot....after which you have one dedicated anti tank unit (Crypteks). A good opponent takes that out and you are going to try to glance things to death...good luck.

Also keep in mind that 6th ed is coming and that gauss is, to me, the ONLY option, because if the rapid fire rumors are true, the combo with phaeron will be a monstrosity.

At least 7 months and they are just rumors.

Jgrand I thought your last post was impolite towards me and the person you were adressing, but whatever. I doubt GK will be much trouble due to low model count 4x ap2 str8 shots (+ chronometron or veil and ap1 flamer) and 100x2 rapid fire, + MSS ans warscythes

My original post was nothing but helpful. I looked at your list under the assumption that you wanted to make a competitive one....sorry. I stand by everything I said.

How do you plan on dealing with a competitive mech GK army to get them out of vehicles? You have one unit. Literally 1 that can pop their transports. If you played Crowe, 3 Rhinos with 5 Purifiers (2 Psycannons each) and 2 Psyfleman you will lose. Everytime. Of 3 squads of Long Fangs, 1 Rune Priest, and 3 7 man Grey Hunter squads in Rhinos. You will lose, everytime. How about my TAC 1000 DE list? 2 Haemys, 2 8 Wyches in Raiders, 2 5 man Warrior Venoms, and 2 Ravagers. You will lose, everytime. You have no way to pop tanks effectively and your bloated units still lose in assault to dedicated close combat.

On the whole, even though the votes are bad (I myself cast the first vote and voted "bad list" just because I didnt want to blow my own horn), the comments are encouraging, most of the negative comments are actually easy to counter and bad appreciations of the list ( obviously its easier for me since I know how its supposed to work), and there are some positive comments.


Thank you for your support those who wrote positive comments, and thanks to those who criticized, highlighting the weaknesses of the list.

Since no one seems to be able to find an alternative to mech or scarab farm, I'll just stay with this list for now, and will try out different cryptek combos to see which is most efficient.

Criticism in not inherently people trying to hurt your feelings. I was trying to help. There was nothing personal about it. You made a bad list, I made a good one. You do not have a competitive list and the majorette agrees.

I read every 1000 pts list posted on warseer, dakka and the french forums, and exept for eldar and DE which I dont know much about (I can therefore not evaluate my chances) and ork horde armies + heavy mech IG (both against which I would probably lose if the player is good I must admit, still depends a lot on terrain and gak), I have not seen a list which I thought I could not beat (MEQ, including GK, actually seems like the easiest matchup)

I've given you three auto losses. If you want me to make a competitive TAC list for every dex that you will likely run into, I could. You will lose to all of them without making a more balanced list.

Ah the commentary of a Marine player. You cannot play xenos armies in the same way marines are played. If this Immortal unit with attached Lord is charged by a similar amount of points of Blood Angels, they will be swept. There is no reason that Necron squads should worry about having "a sergeant with power fist." They should be accomplishing their role of shooting, taking objectives, and kiting the enemy. Again, this is not a MEQ army. Trying to shoehorn Tac Squad tactics into Immortals is wrong.

I've never had a Marine army and have been playing DE or Necron's for 12 years, but thanks for the ASSumption?

Statistically there is very little difference between a squad of marines with a PF and a squad of warriors/immortals + lord, so not sure what being a "Xenos" codex has to do with anything.

Jgrand, I was calling you impolite because you called my list crap. I welcome the help and criticism and thank you for it, but insults are, well...impolite.

The 2x long fang units debate is great, but thats a great chunk of the army that I will focus whilst you try and focus my cryptek, the rest will just be stunlocked by gauss until I can concentrate on it more seriously. I dont think GK will be much of a problem but anyway if they are...feth it. I was thinking of playing GK, downloaded the codex and just thought, "I cant play that its just too easy..".


Concerning your three auto-loss scenarios, might be true, might not, there are many things you are not taking into account. Still, youve made some very interesting and valid points. Even though your alternative list is no better to solve the problem imho, I dont see scarabs working better against missile longfangs or force weapon GK. So either necron just dont have a chance at 1000 pts or youre wrong on both my list and yours

JGrand wrote:You can take up to 5 Lords AND up to 5 Crypteks per Court. How is that in anyway unclear or in need of an FAQ?

Do you see that "AND" in the book anywhere?
(hence the reason there was initial confusion, and not just on my part)

Regardless, I will construct my lists while keeping in mind that rules could go either way, until I hear an absolute ruling from on high.

Also, concerning the majority of people voting for "bad list", Im taking it into account, but not that much, after I saw the first two posts I understood most people dont know what the hell theyre are talking about, and as I said your version of a competitive list is no better imo, even though it resembles more what is usually to be found on the internet since the codex has come out. However, exept for shagarlogans' posts, yours was the most accurate and interesting and gives me many things to think about

There is no such thing as an "auto lose." The game has dice. It also has brains controlling plastic soldiers. That statement is just so asinine it riddles me stupid.

Did you really say a DE list when auto kill him? You realise his immortals can pen the crap out of those paper air planes right?

Frankly I would take his list against any of the ones you mentioned and beat them with little trouble. But I'm good at the game. /shrug

There are many things you dont take into account, cover saves for cryptek and 4+ RP+ indestructible will make it a pain in the a** to kill with longfangs, and if theyre focusing my cryptek theyre not focusing my relentless immortals..

I've never had a Marine army and have been playing DE or Necron's for 12 years, but thanks for the ASSumption?

Statistically there is very little difference between a squad of marines with a PF and a squad of warriors/immortals + lord, so not sure what being a "Xenos" codex has to do with anything.

Classy. My point is that xenos armies usually have to specialize. Marines don't have such extremes; their units are more able to fulfil all roles while simeltaniously being "amazing" at nothing but survival. Armies like Dark Eldar, Eldar, and Necrons have specialized troops, not general ones. Therefore, playing them like Marines is a fatal flaw. For example:

10 Immortals-170+Lord with Scythe is 215. 9 Grey Hunters with a melta, standard, and Wolf Guard with combi melta and fist is 193. The Grey Hunters will kick the crap out of the Immortals due to being overall better in assault and due to sweeping advance. Due to this "revelation" why even bother with the superfluous Lord with Scythe? Why not just worry about doing what Immortals do best and take Tesla weapons and kite infantry? I'm looking at this from a competitive standpoint in which you have to min max and trim fat.

Jgrand, I was calling you impolite because you called my list crap. I welcome the help and criticism and thank you for it, but insults are, well...impolite.

It wasn't personal. Sorry if it offended you. How about bad? Uncompetitive? In serious need of help?

The 2x long fang units debate is great, but thats a great chunk of the army that I will focus whilst you try and focus my cryptek, the rest will just be stunlocked by gauss until I can concentrate on it more seriously. I dont think GK will be much of a problem but anyway if they are...feth it. I was thinking of playing GK, downloaded the codex and just thought, "I cant play that its just too easy..".

What I'm saying is that you will struggle against competitive builds. They will not have a tough time determining target priority (aka the only thing you have that can kill tanks). They will be able to kill the Cryptek unit easily and then all you can do is stun and you can only do this if you don't move. Again, at 24" you will average 1 glance. .5 if they are in cover. If you think that's enough then I can't help you...

Concerning your three auto-loss scenarios, might be true, might not, there are many things you are not taking into account. Still, youve made some very interesting and valid points. Even though your alternative list is no better to solve the problem imho, I dont see scarabs working better against missile longfangs or force weapon GK. So either necron just dont have a chance at 1000 pts or youre wrong on both my list and yours

It is better because my list actually has anti tank. Mine also has units with reasonable duality. If you want to go around trying to charge units of Immortals, go ahead. It's not efficient and it's not good.

Do you see that "AND" in the book anywhere?
(hence the reason there was initial confusion, and not just on my part)

Regardless, I will construct my lists while keeping in mind that rules could go either way, until I hear an absolute ruling from on high.

Under the composition if says 0-5 of each. 10 total members possible, BUT only 5 of each.

Also, concerning the majority of people voting for "bad list", Im taking it into account, but not that much, after I saw the first two posts I understood most people dont know what the hell theyre are talking about, and as I said your version of a competitive list is no better imo, even though it resembles more what is usually to be found on the internet since the codex has come out. However, exept for shagarlogans' posts, yours was the most accurate and interesting and gives me many things to think about

I've given you an alternate competitive list and three examples of good TAC lists that you will see run by competitive players. I've pointed out that your list has no answers for these. That is plenty to think about.

There is no such thing as an "auto lose." The game has dice. It also has brains controlling plastic soldiers. That statement is just so asinine it riddles me stupid.

Did you really say a DE list when auto kill him? You realise his immortals can pen the crap out of those paper air planes right?

Frankly I would take his list against any of the ones you mentioned and beat them with little trouble. But I'm good at the game. /shrug

You are right, there is no such thing as an auto lose, but if you have two players of equal skill and you give one a good list and another a bad, the good will generally come out on top providing extreme anomalies. The Dark Eldar list can deploy away from his list and engage when they want to. The Cryptek court is the ONLY threat to the DE army I posted. A good DE player will always get an alpha strike. 6 Lances from the Ravagers, 2 from the Raiders, and 24 Venom shots will kill that Cryptek Court in one turn on average. Once gone the army has no threats and will lose because it won't be able to shoot.

If you want to play his against me I can arrange getting on Vassal with you. As for this thread I'm done trying to help. You can bring a horse to water....

You are one conceited Ahole I have to say.

I understand your points and have said theyre valid so stop acting like I said you were completely wrong. im just saying most points are more debatable than you make them seem to be.

1) I dont intend on charging with immortals but rapid firing, thats what relentless is for, and it changes EVERYTHING so stop acting as if this army was a fething CC army, its not.

2) That cryptek squad is far more durable than you make it out to be.

3) The lords dont have warsctyhes (exept for the one with the overlord's unit) but staffs of light and ORBS.


So, most of your points are valid and are good things to think about, but some of them are products of your mistakes and misunderstanding of the list. I still thank you for your help since I have to say your comments are constructive and mostly useful.

There are two main problems that i agree upon : anti-tank and anti-horde. Anti tank I cannot really do more about, if 2x10 gauss and 4 chronometron-lances arent enough at 1k points, feth it and feth 5th ed. To handle anti horde Ill probably get a veil cryptek (ap1 flamer) with the cryptek unit and hope for the best with those str5 ap4 rapid firing guns.

1k TAC is difficult with this codex, and I dont see many better list at that format, and the one youve proposed is not among them, so just dont call a list crap if you havent got a better option

I don't see any reason to equip them with Gauss weapons instead of Tesla. Tesla is superior against most enemies out there since AP 4 will not sratch the most common foe's armor anyway. Furthermore, you lose a lot of mobility with Gauss while Tesla allows you to keep moving back and still shoot at 24''. Gauss has been weakened again in the new codex and I would not hope for glancing stuff to death...at all.

Classy. My point is that xenos armies usually have to specialize. Marines don't have such extremes; their units are more able to fulfil all roles while simeltaniously being "amazing" at nothing but survival. Armies like Dark Eldar, Eldar, and Necrons have specialized troops, not general ones. Therefore, playing them like Marines is a fatal flaw. For example:

10 Immortals-170+Lord with Scythe is 215. 9 Grey Hunters with a melta, standard, and Wolf Guard with combi melta and fist is 193.The Grey Hunters will kick the crap out of the Immortals due to being overall better in assault and due to sweeping advance. Due to this "revelation" why even bother with the superfluous Lord with Scythe? Why not just worry about doing what Immortals do best and take Tesla weapons and kite infantry? I'm looking at this from a competitive standpoint in which you have to min max and trim fat.

And this is where you are wrong. Particularly the bold/italics parts. On another thread mercer MHed 10 Assault marines+PF sergeant+ Priest against 10 Immortals + Lord +WS +MSS + RO. The Immortals will fair much better then you think.


Also, the hole min/maxing trim the fat thing is a meme popularised on the inter webs as an exercise in futility for bad generals to feel better about there general badness. An "un-optimised" list fielded by a competent general whose intimately familiar with it will beat a ZOMG perfect list with an average gneral any day of the week. GW might be "slightly" off with their points at times but never more then 1 to 5%. People just simply make way to much out of the whole "undercosted" or overcosted" thing.


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Sigvatr wrote:I don't see any reason to equip them with Gauss weapons instead of Tesla. Tesla is superior against most enemies out there since AP 4 will not sratch the most common foe's armor anyway. Furthermore, you lose a lot of mobility with Gauss while Tesla allows you to keep moving back and still shoot at 24''. Gauss has been weakened again in the new codex and I would not hope for glancing stuff to death...at all.

You don't Glance stuff "to death". You glance it "to stun." Immortals will do this nicely.

You are one conceited Ahole I have to say.

I understand your points and have said theyre valid so stop acting like I said you were completely wrong. im just saying most points are more debatable than you make them seem to be.

Never personally attacked you, guy. Sorry that you got so butt hurt that your list isn't competitive....

1) I dont intend on charging with immortals but rapid firing, thats what relentless is for, and it changes EVERYTHING so stop acting as if this army was a fething CC army, its not.

Fine. Do what you want.

2) That cryptek squad is far more durable than you make it out to be.

It's not. If you think it will survive a focused blasting from any of the lists I've posted you're kidding yourself.

3) The lords dont have warsctyhes (exept for the one with the overlord's unit) but staffs of light and ORBS.

Which make them even worse. The orb Lords are 65 points of waste to make a unit 16% more survivable in certain situations. You are paying 30% more for a situational 16% benefit.

So, most of your points are valid and are good things to think about, but some of them are products of your mistakes and misunderstanding of the list. I still thank you for your help since I have to say your comments are constructive and mostly useful.

I don't misunderstand the list. You have three units. 1 Court which is the entirety of your anti tank. 1 anti infantry unit that has two arbitrary close combat characters attached. 1 other similar unit that cannot benefit from it's weapons when it moves and fires, has no close combat characters, and pays a premium to get back up. That's all you've got.

My main problem is that a smart opponent will concentrate on the only real anti tank threat you have. That unit has 5 members with 1 wound, t 4 and a 4+ save and 1 member with the same and a 3+ save. So you basically have to be able to put 6 wounds on not even MEQ to down your only reliable unit. Once that's over, you are relying on glancing tanks to death. I've already shown why this won't work. You just don't have the weight of fire to do that.

Most 5th edition lists (like the ones I posted) are full of metal boxes. They also have the ability to down 1 unit of 6 guys and then kite your list. This is my problem. Sorry if that came off harshly.

There are two main problems that i agree upon : anti-tank and anti-horde. Anti tank I cannot really do more about, if 2x10 gauss and 4 chronometron-lances arent enough at 1k points, feth it and feth 5th ed. To handle anti horde Ill probably get a veil cryptek (ap1 flamer) with the cryptek unit and hope for the best with those str5 ap4 rapid firing guns.

You don't. Anti tank you can do more about. You have to cut the stuff that doesn't help you. The AP 1 flamer goes against leadership btw. So it's likely a 4+ or worse. And you have to get close without a tank which is very, very hard with flamers.

1k TAC is difficult with this codex, and I dont see many better list at that format, and the one youve proposed is not among them, so just dont call a list crap if you havent got a better option

I do though. If you would like me to put up both lists and have people vote we can. Or perhaps email them to 3++, YTTH or another blog and have an internet heavy weight look at them? It doesn't mean that much to me. You will find the limitations in due time.

And this is where you are wrong. Particularly the bold/italics parts. On another thread mercer MHed 10 Assault marines+PF sergeant+ Priest against 10 Immortals + Lord +WS +MSS + RO. The Immortals will fair much better then you think.

The GH squad I posted in the previous post (which costs less) charges the 10 Immortals with Scythe Lord. 7 wounds from 9 GH mean 2 dead crons. Scythe Lord drops 1 marine. Remaining 8 Immortals cause 2 wounds which kills < 1 MEQ. Powerfist swings and takes another 1.5 down. Crons take LD test on 7 or 8 which isn't good. So a coin flip the Crons are swept. This is without the wolf standard popping.

No, you don't want them in close combat.

Also, the hole min/maxing trim the fat thing is a meme popularised on the inter webs as an exercise in futility for bad generals to feel better about there general badness. An "un-optimised" list fielded by a competent general whose intimately familiar with it will beat a ZOMG perfect list with an average gneral any day of the week. GW might be "slightly" off with their points at times but never more then 1 to 5%. People just simply make way to much out of the whole "undercosted" or overcosted" thing.

Sure, you can do different things and run lists different ways. However some things are just bad. Having 1 anti tank unit at 1k-bad. Paying 65 points (30% of a unit's cost) to increase a units survivability by 16%-bad. Counting on gauss to pop tanks-bad.

I'm a successful player. I game a good amount and have played with very good players. I was in the second bracket of the NoVa Open this year and finished my last game on table 12 of over 100. I've won a recent local event. I don't need cheap shots from you claiming what "good players" can or can't do. Again, I'll play my 1k DE TAC list against this dude's list on Vassal with you if you are so confident. If not then keep down the shots bud. I started no name calling with you.

JGrand, did they get you a shiny metal for your accolades that you can hang on the refriginator for the hole family to see?




I'm just Frakking with you, but seriously the "I'm the god of warhammer on the interwebs and I approve this message" bravado gets old. There's a lot of people running around that have had a bit of success with cookie cutter lists and now they think they are all that and can be dismissive when some one suggests a tactic or strategy that falls out of the guidelines of the 40K they learned.

There is a massive list of units/strats/tactics out there that people have just come to assume are bad because a few people shouted loud enough, long enough on the internet. I just wish people would take a moment and realise they certainly DON'T know everything there is to know about the game and be more constructive with their criticism.

You mentioned Kirby and the like. Decent bloggers, but there is certainly no consensus even amongst "Good" generals about what works and what doesn't. Hulk in particularly is very good at praising the strengths of units that many are dismissive of.


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And this is where you are wrong. Particularly the bold/italics parts. On another thread mercer MHed 10 Assault marines+PF sergeant+ Priest against 10 Immortals + Lord +WS +MSS + RO. The Immortals will fair much better then you think.



The GH squad I posted in the previous post (which costs less) charges the 10 Immortals with Scythe Lord. 7 wounds from 9 GH mean 2 dead crons. Scythe Lord drops 1 marine. Remaining 8 Immortals cause 2 wounds which kills < 1 MEQ. Powerfist swings and takes another 1.5 down. Crons take LD test on 7 or 8 which isn't good. So a coin flip the Crons are swept. This is without the wolf standard popping.

No, you don't want them in close combat.

I like how you left out the MSS, which is critical to the equation. Also, though I have made the mistake myself, the 30% increase in points for a 16% increase in survivability isn't really an accurate assessment. You are ignoring what else the lord brings, so either its a 17.6% increase in points if you isolate the orb versus the cost of the immortals, or its a slew of other things to bring into the comparison if you add the lord and what ever other gear he brings. Furthermore, just to be nit pick, it's closer to a 17% increase in survivability then a 16%. Common mistake on the interwebs, .666 rounds up, not down.


One final Errata, both Leadership tests at 7 and 8 are better then coin flips. Also if you re-do the assault with MSS on the lord you'll see they will fair much better then you are projecting.

JGrand, did they get you a shiny metal for your accolades that you can hang on the refriginator for the hole family to see?

It's "whole" family and "refrigerator".

I'm just Frakking with you, but seriously the "I'm the god of warhammer on the interwebs and I approve this message" bravado gets old. There's a lot of people running around that have had a bit of success with cookie cutter lists and now they think they are all that and can be dismissive when some one suggests a tactic or strategy that falls out of the guidelines of the 40K they learned.

I only brought this up because you constantly tried to disparage my opinion. I felt some credentials beat "random internet guy who claims he's a good player yet can't bother to spell check".

There is a massive list of units/strats/tactics out there that people have just come to assume are bad because a few people shouted loud enough, long enough on the internet. I just wish people would take a moment and realise they certainly DON'T know everything there is to know about the game and be more constructive with their criticism.

Agreed. But his list isn't some unknown revelation. It has many, many glaring holes.

You mentioned Kirby and the like. Decent bloggers, but there is certainly no consensus even amongst "Good" generals about what works and what doesn't. Hulk in particularly is very good at praising the strengths of units that many are dismissive of.

No consensus, sure. The Crons have debatably more open options than other codices. However, I have discussed at length why I think this list is bad, provided common lists that would spank it, and got nothing but flamed in response. Could I have been nicer? Sure. Then again, the OP had an option to vote his list as "bad" and most people did. It's not like I called his girlfriend ugly or said his kid sucks in little league. Get over it.


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I like how you left out the MSS, which is critical to the equation. Also, though I have made the mistake myself, the 30% increase in points for a 16% increase in survivability isn't really an accurate assessment. You are ignoring what else the lord brings, so either its a 17.6% increase in points if you isolate the orb versus the cost of the immortals, or its a slew of other things to bring into the comparison if you add the lord and what ever other gear he brings. Furthermore, just to be nit pick, it's closer to a 17% increase in survivability then a 16%. Common mistake on the interwebs, .666 rounds up, not down.

MSS won't matter if the Crons are charged. A good player isn't putting a powerfist next to the MSS Lord. And if the Cron player is good they won't be initiating the assault or in this case bad and taking Gauss so they cannot assault regardless they won't be charging to make use of MSS. So a normal guy hits D3 attacks on his Marine bros and does nothing. He then attacks again. Nothing of note is changed. I'll give you that it might force another save and bring the Marine casualty total to a whopping 2. So the Crons lose by 2-3. It's still a dicey LD test at 7 or 8. And a sweep they will lose.

As for the survivability issue, it's just not worth discussing. For the price of this 95 point one wound model kitted out with MSS, Scythe,and Orb you can get 5.5 more Immortals. And for a shooting unit, you want the bodies to shoot with. The close combat character adds so little to a unit that will be swept a good amount of the time anyway. Adding 50% more bodies beats the 17% survivability increase. No contest.

One final Errata, both Leadership tests at 7 and 8 are better then coin flips. Also if you re-do the assault with MSS on the lord you'll see they will fair much better then you are projecting.

8 definitely is. 7 isn't far off.

You're actually wrong on a lot of points : the cryptek for example have indestructible and the orb, which means even if they get wiped out 50% of them will get back up, so it will take you at least two turns to really get rid of them, not counting cover and gak.

Also, orb only adds 16% chances of getting back up, but 16% of a unit of immortals isnt far from 30 points..., its even better on the unit of crypteks..

Sooo, discounting the gauss weaponry, yeah I have a unit that will take some time to kill for reliable anti tank. The time needed to kill them will simply be bought to make the immortals be useful.

As for them "random" cc characters, Id rather have them than not against 5 man cc units..




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Anyhow, feth it, I'm not playing scarab farm or wraithwing, will do some thinking though, since some very valid points were made. Thx for comments both of you.

Jgrand, you do need, like many people on the internet, a lesson in humility. Thats what a screen and thousands of kilometers between people tend to do to people, make them arrogant.