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The term cheese or cheesey to me has lost a lot. To me anymore it seems a blanket statement of a lot of other issues rather then the actual unit, codex or whatever. The reason I feel that way is it seems a monthly occurence that the "cheese" changes hands to a new army.
Lash, Joww, blood lance, twin daemon princes, leafblower ig, and others all get called cheese to some and then other shrug their shoulders. That inconsitancy is kinda my point. People just call cheese when their dice roll bad, don't know how to fight it or just have a "fun" list. I use that term loosely cause fun is subjective and don't want to say that person made a bad list and just finding ways to complain.
I mean yes certain things are devastating in certain situations but I have yet to see any list or unit that is unbeatable.
The recent GK cheese is silly. They're expensive guys is power armor. Most ride in rhinos. You telling me you forgt how to kill rhinos and power armor marines?
Joww is bad for slow models but hardly felt but eldar or de. This game has been around a long time and I'm sure making new rules that are balanced, fit the fluff, etc is not easy.
I have done freelance art for video games and been in those meetings. It's very hard to make the fickle mass love what your putting out if your expected to pump out stuff quickly. You will never please everyone.
I have seen all over the web many who love certain rules and then the next topic is hate.
What you really should do is examine why you play, if you still enjoy it, quit whining and stop the finger pointing. If ward, kelly or whomever makes you so upset you hate him or are nasty to those playing that codex then you need to find another hobby. This is supposed to be fun and relaxing. I for one have played my armies a long time and don't want to hear you whine cause my army got a new codex because im not shelving a 550$ plus to make you feel better.

Although it is a text wall and could use some line breaks...

/slowclap

I'm with you brother. I've been saying the same thing in pretty much every BA/GK/Mat Ward thread since people started complaining.

Honestly though, "cheese" usually just equates to "thing I don't like that might have beat me once" to a lot of the more petty/less experienced posters. My favorite example is when people cried out that deep striking Land Raiders in the Blood Angels codex was cheesy. It's not cheesy; it's actually a godawful tactic that will end up with you mishapping your expensive tanks and their cargo. It's incredibly stupid from a gameplay perspective, and no one in their right mind would ever do it.

Brother SRM wrote:I'm with you brother. I've been saying the same thing in pretty much every BA/GK/Mat Ward thread since people started complaining.

Honestly though, "cheese" usually just equates to "thing I don't like that might have beat me once" to a lot of the more petty/less experienced posters. My favorite example is when people cried out that deep striking Land Raiders in the Blood Angels codex was cheesy. It's not cheesy; it's actually a godawful tactic that will end up with you mishapping your expensive tanks and their cargo. It's incredibly stupid from a gameplay perspective, and no one in their right mind would ever do it.

Hey, right handed people play too. Doesn't mean they make stupid tactical decisions with their Land Raiders.

No it isnt and to say otherwise is an insult to the dairy gods. Peperjack cheese smothering a burger thats stuffed with more pepper jack cheese is awesome... Im sorry i was just informed that this isnt a discussion on real cheese... Damn.


Yes it is overused

I am not that long time a player, but when I first started out, I also wanted to play a bit more "nice". I played some extreme shooty armies, and some newbie armies, and some tailored ones. I find that as long as you smile, laugh, have fun even if you are losing, its alright.

But after facing the more powerful armies which made the max use out of some powerful mechanic, or some powerful unit, I started to also change my list to make it more efficient and powerful.

My rationale is "Why should I penalise myself by purposely playing at a lower level than the max of what my army codex offers?" But in return, being on the losing end to powerful lists before, I promise myself that in future, if I am winning against a list which was obviously not quite optimised, then I would try and give that guy a good game so that we both have a good time playing.

Cheese is just an easy way for those who don't like losing to insult the winner. Or maybe it's an excuse for them to lose.

Who knows. Cheese is delicious though. Kolby makes me happy.

I dont get angry at people using abilities in their codex... I get a bit more angry that some abilities exist.

jotww is just insane against necrons... its also a great IC sniping weapon. Also, nothing saves against it so i think that's why it leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. Its just a simple point and shoot, no rolls to hit or wound, just an Init save and can snipe units. Also since it acts like a template , night fighting does nothing against it :(

While we're at it I think Troll has become the most overused word on the internet, and it's slowly bleeding into real life.

If you say something that others don't agree with, often times you're called a troll.

This event alone generates ever so much rage inside me.

Necroshea wrote:While we're at it I think Troll has become the most overused word on the internet, and it's slowly bleeding into real life.

If you say something that others don't agree with, often times you're called a troll.

This event alone generates ever so much rage inside me.

Often I have seen that term used it's because someone stated the same thing over and over OR someone wanted to invalidate someone for not having coinciding views. But I agree that term is also slung carelessly. I am definately ragin though over the cheese comments. Both my 13th company army(which is mostly wulfen models) and Daemonhunter army catch so much flak due to folks not liking the new codexes. It pisses me off that they feel I need to cater to this witch hunt going on for new codexes. As far as the deal with deepstriking lr well I can't say I'd do it but I feel your army you play it. Ok I'm done ranting. Don't want to troll here.

Honestly, I just think the word cheese is kind of stupid.

If I run a fully mechanized Chimelta vet spam list, I'm not cheesy, I'm practically WAAC. The only way to not be WAAC is if I purposely gimp myself with bad moves.

Necroshea wrote:Honestly, I just think the word cheese is kind of stupid.

If I run a fully mechanized Chimelta vet spam list, I'm not cheesy, I'm practically WAAC. The only way to not be WAAC is if I purposely gimp myself with bad moves.

WAAC applies to more than just how you build your army. A mechvet spam army list is somewhat abusive given the cheap nature of the models and weapons, even if it is beatable. WAAC usually applies to players who don't care about sportsmanship, don't care about fluff, don't care about the other player having a good time, and just want to beat face.

Well, I'll admit that I consider the new GK codex has a fairly unique smell about it...

But then I play Daemons, so in my opinion, it's perfectly acceptable to call a player out as being a filthy, WAAC's, weedy, greesy-haired, obnoxious, unclean, cowardly git who needs to grow a pair and play properly when they;
a) refuse to play you untill you tell them what army you have.
b) pull out a pure quake-shunt list once they hear you play daemons.

Thanks, but no thanks you dumb gak!

I look at it this way;
a) you spent hundreds of dollars, hours of your time building/painting and deserve to play a fun game with your favourite army.
b) I also spent hundreds of dollars and hours of my time building/painting and I also deserve to play a fun game with my army!

This is why I now tell any potential opponent that my list isn't some ungodly optmised-to-the-max 'uber net-list of epic win'tasticness, and I ask them if they can please recripicate and not pull out a boring net list on me...
If they say no, I tell 'em to find another opponent because I know the game will not be fun in any way.



The game is supposed to be fun for both players! Sadly I find that there is a huge lack of respect amongst players towards their opponents nowadays, which ultimently leads to alot of the name-calling...

It's fine to show up to a tournament with a ruthless, well oiled winning machine of a list. But don't spam it ad nausium on weekly open gaming nights when you know full well that there's a bunch of players about who don't want any part of that kind of game experience.
Leave spamy WAAC's lists for your tournies and tourny prep games! Stop being a blind sheep and try out something new on those weekly open gaming nights! (who knows, you might even stumble onto a new combo that beats your old net list way of thinking?!!)

Experiment 626 wrote:Well, I'll admit that I consider the new GK codex has a fairly unique smell about it...

But then I play Daemons, so in my opinion, it's perfectly acceptable to call a player out as being a filthy, WAAC's, weedy, greesy-haired, obnoxious, unclean, cowardly git who needs to grow a pair and play properly when they;
a) refuse to play you untill you tell them what army you have.
b) pull out a pure quake-shunt list once they hear you play daemons.

Thanks, but no thanks you dumb gak!

I look at it this way;
a) you spent hundreds of dollars, hours of your time building/painting and deserve to play a fun game with your favourite army.
b) I also spent hundreds of dollars and hours of my time building/painting and I also deserve to play a fun game with my army!

This is why I now tell any potential opponent that my list isn't some ungodly optmised-to-the-max 'uber net-list of epic win'tasticness, and I ask them if they can please recripicate and not pull out a boring net list on me...
If they say no, I tell 'em to find another opponent because I know the game will not be fun in any way.



The game is supposed to be fun for both players! Sadly I find that there is a huge lack of respect amongst players towards their opponents nowadays, which ultimently leads to alot of the name-calling...

It's fine to show up to a tournament with a ruthless, well oiled winning machine of a list. But don't spam it ad nausium on weekly open gaming nights when you know full well that there's a bunch of players about who don't want any part of that kind of game experience.
Leave spamy WAAC's lists for your tournies and tourny prep games! Stop being a blind sheep and try out something new on those weekly open gaming nights! (who knows, you might even stumble onto a new combo that beats your old net list way of thinking?!!)

Well at the stores i play at I also the only daemon player lol BUT I get your stance and if I played against a daemon player at the club(excluding tournies) I would not field my gk army. I would play my daemons or my eldar just saying cause I do recognise and acknowledge the other player in that instance. I just do not however like all the hate when I do play my DHs. I got crap for playing them cause people said I wasn't competitive and NOW they say I'm a cheeseball. wth is up with that? Plus for the record I can't wait till the bandwagoners move onto another codex. lol

whats cheesy is people calling cheese when something shows up they dont understand or like, or cant/dont know how to beat. ive had my 5 warriors in a venom called it. eldar falcons, trueborn, dakkafexes, nob bikers, trukk ramshackle, the list goes on.

its pretty simple to read the rules and only really requires some basic common sense to learn how to deal with "X cheesy unit".

i propose a new change in the cheese policy. if someone calls something cheese, the apropiate response is "heres your sign" check out the youtube link below for detials if you dont know what im referring to. the link comes with a complimentary sign.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mUEUwdhsn4&feature=related

also check out this one for a furthar insight... (not work safe due to minor language regarding "bewbs")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL6wbsGx9qw&feature=related

Draigo wrote:... I got crap for playing them cause people said I wasn't competitive and NOW they say I'm a cheeseball. wth is up with that? Plus for the record I can't wait till the bandwagoners move onto another codex. lol

And there's the big problem right there... The obnoxious, hate-fueling 'Bandwagoners' who codex-hop to the newest stink-pile as soon as it comes out like clockwork.

I have a couple friends who got on board the GK wagon as well, but they would *never* use anything but a 'soft' list against my Daemons. (and conversely I'll also leave things like a fateweaver build out of the picture unless we agree to it before hand!)
Playing even an 'average' GK list against Daemons is near-pointless because the book is so heavy-handed in shoving a solid metal rod up the daemons backside...

The 'bandwagoners' though tend to be those gits who troll the inter-tubes for the filthiest, most hard-core, pts-efficient list they can find and then inflict it upon the unsuspecting without remorse!
I would be willing to bet that a goodly number of the people who refuse to play against GK's and think of all GK's players as being jerky power-gamers, do so because their first experience against the new codex was against one of gimmiky 'uber-builds that left them with a very bad taste in their mouth.

It's not fair to those GK players who have waited an eternity to be able to play an actual full-on knight army, but it's the same old case of 'one bad apple poisons the bunch'...



Newcrons likely haven't recieved the staggering cries of OP cheddar fest because;
a) They're not marines and Ward is bias against armies he isn't 100% behind. (*cough*orc&goblinsin7th*cough*)
b) They're supposedly designed far more heavily for 6th edition play than they are for 5th ed. (hence the obvious lack of a grossly effective mech list)

Thus, GK's are still considered by many to be the 'codex to rule them all' because they currently do have the superior game-breaking builds in this current edition. (ie: MSU purifyer mech-spam, draigowing for wound allocation shinanigans & henchmen spam)

I haven't heard the GK are the 'codex to rule them all'
AFAIK BA, SW and IG were the top tier.
GK were fairly balanced last i heard...

Of course I have obnoxious, hate fueling for the bandwagoners. I have played that army for a long time and I get excited to play the new book and get nothing but flak. Gee I'm sorry would it please the mass if I still used my old daemonhunter book? Some at our club got sour for the new book when the "new breed" started playing and tried to break every rule in the book for example use sterns ability while in a raider instead of cc, use brotherhood of the psyker from their libby, use quicksilver in assault, use henchman without a inquisitor, etc to name a few. Before the new book dropped and I played them I was mocked cause I was not playin ultra competitive like IG, Orks when those all came out. Now I get cheese so yes I have some nerdrage over this.

Got the same thing when dark eldar came out. I played dark eldar religiously into 5th pretty much untill they got the new rules. I still even use some of my older models, although they are steadily getting replaced for the new hotness. But I got lots of critiques for playing an old non competitive army, then when I deployed my new DE a day after release I got "oh your just a bandwagoner hoping on the cheese train" BS. There just. Ain't pleasing people.

DarthSpader wrote:Got the same thing when dark eldar came out. I played dark eldar religiously into 5th pretty much untill they got the new rules. I still even use some of my older models, although they are steadily getting replaced for the new hotness. But I got lots of critiques for playing an old non competitive army, then when I deployed my new DE a day after release I got "oh your just a bandwagoner hoping on the cheese train" BS. There just. Ain't pleasing people.

I played Space Wolves in 4th edition, and for a good deal of 5th. They're the first army of mine to get a new codex, as I didn't start vanilla Space Marines in earnest until they had a 5th ed codex. I know how you feel!

I agree with you Spader. I played necrons ever since I started 40k (end of 4th). I got my face smashed by people at my FLGS playing all kinds of lists. I walked in the other day with the new codex, and suddenly some people were crying cheese at the fact that my crons have WBB without phase out. This guy runs an infantry regiment with vendettas. And every time he stomped me I just smiled and thanked him for the game. Now, from the moment I deploy to the moment I pack up I have to deal with him whine about how Solar pulse is OP, and that tremorstaves shouldn't be allowed. Thankfully there are some guys there that have the decency to congratulate on a hard fought victory and ask if you would like to play against them.

mmmBoBo wrote:I agree with you Spader. I played necrons ever since I started 40k (end of 4th). I got my face smashed by people at my FLGS playing all kinds of lists. I walked in the other day with the new codex, and suddenly some people were crying cheese at the fact that my crons have WBB without phase out. This guy runs an infantry regiment with vendettas. And every time he stomped me I just smiled and thanked him for the game. Now, from the moment I deploy to the moment I pack up I have to deal with him whine about how Solar pulse is OP, and that tremorstaves shouldn't be allowed. Thankfully there are some guys there that have the decency to congratulate on a hard fought victory and ask if you would like to play against them.

Wow, i'm surprised you made it through the game. I would have given him 1 warning telling him to man up or the games over.

If I pull out my themed Tzeentch daemons list, the cries of well aged cheddar shake the roof of the store... (and this is without using kairos for feth's sake!)
The mech lists run screaming home, and instead I end up laying against foot marines of some flavour because apparently Tzeentch is broken vs vehicles & hordes?!

If I use my Khorne/Slaanesh list, I get laughed off the table and told to at least try and make a list that will last more than a single turn...
Because of corse, this is my non-shooting list, all those mech lists chomp at the bit to drive about in circles playing pts-denial while casually shooting down just enough of my gribblies. But this list is considered broken vs any kind of non-mech list because it's got too many power toys & rending attacks!

Necroshea wrote:While we're at it I think Troll has become the most overused word on the internet, and it's slowly bleeding into real life.

If you say something that others don't agree with, often times you're called a troll.

This event alone generates ever so much rage inside me.

OMG yes! Troll has(had) a distinct definition. Now I see stupid threads like the 'who's the biggest troll in the 40k universe' or people throwing it around like nothing and I just

Cheese is the cry of the petty, the unskilled and the unprepared. Owned/Pwned is the cry of the dull-witted and the lucky idiot. TFG uses both of these to attempt sooth his endless rage as he slowly passes it on to other weaker willed people around him creating more.

Simply put, kill it with fire and move on.

So the moral of the story is: If there's something about a codex's crunch you don't like, write about it in a thought out and explained way, don't just yammer buzz words

If you have a decently painted army then the call of cheese is less often used, especially in adult groups. You turn up with an army of say 4-5 psycannon dreads all painted like gak then I may be tempted by the C word. However, if you took time to paint them nice then I might just grumble quietly instead ...

EDIT: yet to see a mech vet list that didn't look a bit gak tbh.

Cryage wrote:I dont get angry at people using abilities in their codex... I get a bit more angry that some abilities exist.

jotww is just insane against necrons... its also a great IC sniping weapon. Also, nothing saves against it so i think that's why it leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. Its just a simple point and shoot, no rolls to hit or wound, just an Init save and can snipe units. Also since it acts like a template , night fighting does nothing against it :(

Main Rule FAQ. since its a physic shooting attack it still has to roll to hit

Necroshea wrote:If you say something that others don't agree with, often times you're called a troll.

This event alone generates ever so much rage inside me.

Are you saying people can troll you by calling you a troll?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:Now I see stupid threads like the 'who's the biggest troll in the 40k universe'

Well that's just silly - everyone knows you only get trolls in WHFB. Jeez