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Heya, Dakka.

I was under the impression, that Psychic Hood nullifies psychic powers, regardless of the psyker being embarked or not. But a recent thread i just read made me have my doubts:

17) The new Space Marine Psychic hood (and possibly the Space Wolves staff) only function when a model within 24' casts a power. If you place your Psykers into a tank (such as a Falcon) then the Psyker is no longer on the table and as such not a "model" when casting. The hood can only target the tank (which is not casting a power) thus granting you complete immunity to the hood until you disembark. ** The Deamonhunters Hood is worded differently and works since it only cares about if a power was used somewhere, but strangely enough only gets to BE USED when a >model< casts a power. So enjoy your complete immunity all around, at least until you get shot out of the tank.

Does this information hold true? Can i, as an Eldar player, embark my Farseer and prevent the Hood, or am i right, that the Hood now counts it's 24" psychic defense towards the Vehicle hull?

If the model isn't on the table to be nullified, how can it cast the power in the first place?

I have never seen it ruled that way in any tourneys.. ard boys or otherwise. If that logic held then a character in a vehilce couldn't use his hood cause he isnt on the field etc..

There's no FAQ addressing this. The Tyranid ability Shadows in the Warp was FAQed to not affect units inside vehicles, so there is some precedent to say that you can't hood an ability from a transport.

Well, i'm neither for og against it. I just needed this clarified.
Furthermore, the Embarking-section (p66, BRB) states that; "If the players need to measure a range involving the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle´s hull".
- As i'm reading this, it is pretty clear that the Hull of the vehicle is counted towards the Embarked models presence. It just didn't make sense to me, that this guy states, that the model, which the Hood targets, doesn't count as "being present".
- Reversely, this would also mean, that the embarked model isn't within range of anything, hence not being "present", and in the case of a Farseer, cannot cast powers from not being present (eg. not being within range of ANYTHING).

Billinator wrote:Well, i'm neither for og against it. I just needed this clarified.
Furthermore, the Embarking-section (p66, BRB) states that; "If the players need to measure a range involving the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle´s hull".
- As i'm reading this, it is pretty clear that the Hull of the vehicle is counted towards the Embarked models presence. It just didn't make sense to me, that this guy states, that the model, which the Hood targets, doesn't count as "being present".
- Reversely, this would also mean, that the embarked model isn't within range of anything, hence not being "present", and in the case of a Farseer, cannot cast powers from not being present (eg. not being within range of ANYTHING).

I saw similar discussions debated when folks were trying to use Joww from in a landraider and using Stern's ability in a landraider to expand the range since obviously any vehicle is bigger then the characters base.

JotWW from inside a landraider doesn't work because it's a PSA and the LR doesn't have firing points

rigeld2 wrote:JotWW from inside a landraider doesn't work because it's a PSA and the LR doesn't have firing points

That was still debated when the book first came out because ORIGINALLY you didn't need los or to roll to hit.

I can see that. Regardless - there's nothing definitive either way saying that you can hood from inside a transport, or that you can hood an ability from a psyker inside a transport.

There is precedent (SitW) that psychic defense cannot be used against an ability from a psyker inside a transport.

Draigo wrote:

Billinator wrote:Well, i'm neither for og against it. I just needed this clarified.
Furthermore, the Embarking-section (p66, BRB) states that; "If the players need to measure a range involving the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle´s hull".
- As i'm reading this, it is pretty clear that the Hull of the vehicle is counted towards the Embarked models presence. It just didn't make sense to me, that this guy states, that the model, which the Hood targets, doesn't count as "being present".
- Reversely, this would also mean, that the embarked model isn't within range of anything, hence not being "present", and in the case of a Farseer, cannot cast powers from not being present (eg. not being within range of ANYTHING).

I saw similar discussions debated when folks were trying to use Joww from in a landraider and using Stern's ability in a landraider to expand the range since obviously any vehicle is bigger then the characters base.

People sure does try to bend the rules in their favor whenever they're unclear!
Heck, i've even read discussions about MCs being able to shoot in the opponents shooting phase, as the rules doesn't clearly specify that it's only your OWN phases.
- The RAW is often very unclear, but it's often a question of common sense - a thing people often seem to disregard, whenever something can be turned in their favor.

It's often easy to make logic sense, how the RAWs were meant to be read. But it's not always easy to argue, when people claim that a rule is to be understood differently, as there's often no clear definition as to how to interpret the RAWs.

rigeld2 wrote:I can see that. Regardless - there's nothing definitive either way saying that you can hood from inside a transport, or that you can hood an ability from a psyker inside a transport.

There is precedent (SitW) that psychic defense cannot be used against an ability from a psyker inside a transport.

If the hood was nullified by the in or out of vehicles thatd wreck a lot of sw ideas.

Billinator wrote:- Reversely, this would also mean, that the embarked model isn't within range of anything, hence not being "present", and in the case of a Farseer, cannot cast powers from not being present (eg. not being within range of ANYTHING).

From the Rulebook FAQ:

Games Workshop wrote:Q: Can a model use a psychic power that is not a
Psychic Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a transport
vehicle? (p50)
A: Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is still
worked out from the vehicle’s fire points (this will
count as one model shooting through that fire point if
the power is used in the Shooting phase).
If the psychic power does not require line of sight and
has a range or an area of effect that is normally
measured from the model using it, these are measured
from the vehicle’s hull, as explained in the Embarking
section on page 66.

rigeld2 wrote:I can see that. Regardless - there's nothing definitive either way saying that you can hood from inside a transport, or that you can hood an ability from a psyker inside a transport.

My point exactly. We're left with logic as the only real answer.

So by this logic, units embarked in a rhino could not fire out of the hatches as they are not "on the table" either?

I always took not on the table to mean in reserves (i.e. not in play).

Billinator wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I can see that. Regardless - there's nothing definitive either way saying that you can hood from inside a transport, or that you can hood an ability from a psyker inside a transport.

My point exactly. We're left with logic as the only real answer.

Logic would be to follow the precedent set by SitW - so psykers inside transports would be immune to hoods and all psychic defense.

just saying.

Green is Best! wrote:So by this logic, units embarked in a rhino could not fire out of the hatches as they are not "on the table" either?

I always took not on the table to mean in reserves (i.e. not in play).

Except that you're given explicit permission to.

@Puma
I've always considered Psychic Shooting Attacks as a normal shooting attack, that needs a psychic test beforehand.
Normal Psychic Attacks, i consider like aura's shooting out from the model (unless specified otherwise).

Everyone always assumed that both hoods and shadows of the warp worked on things cast from a vehicle.

Then the Tyranid theFAQ came along stomping all over them for no reason.

Since then, everyone has just politely ignored the implications that has for hoods. Because frankly, it was a stupid ruling.

rigeld2 wrote:

Billinator wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I can see that. Regardless - there's nothing definitive either way saying that you can hood from inside a transport, or that you can hood an ability from a psyker inside a transport.

My point exactly. We're left with logic as the only real answer.

Logic would be to follow the precedent set by SitW - so psykers inside transports would be immune to hoods and all psychic defense.

just saying.

Unless the intention of clearing out SitW was due to anti-psy powers normally being ABLE to do such?

I still don't see how the Embarked state can prevent Hoods and the like from working, as the model is inside the transport. How else than models shoot, use powers, and so forth, if they aren't present in the transport?
- If these models weren't inside the transport, there's no point in measuring any distances from it's hull (as written under the Embarking rule), as the models AREN'T THERE!

Billinator wrote:Unless the intention of clearing out SitW was due to anti-psy powers normally being ABLE to do such?

So SitW is getting singled out? There's nothing in the FAQ ruling to suggest that, just a simple "No."

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Everyone always assumed that both hoods and shadows of the warp worked on things cast from a vehicle.

Then the Tyranid theFAQ came along stomping all over them for no reason.

Since then, everyone has just politely ignored the implications that has for hoods. Because frankly, it was a stupid ruling.

Haha - agreed!

The 'Nids block out psychic signals from half a galaxy, when they launch their attacks. But if your psyker is found within a Transport, it's a whole different story!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Billinator wrote:Unless the intention of clearing out SitW was due to anti-psy powers normally being ABLE to do such?

So SitW is getting singled out? There's nothing in the FAQ ruling to suggest that, just a simple "No."

But there's nothing in the FAQ ruling that suggests the opposite either?
- All there is to be found in the FAQ is that Tyranids SitW cannot penetrate transports..?

Billinator wrote:- All there is to be found in the FAQ is that Tyranids SitW cannot penetrate transports..?

All those astropaths have really just been lying to everyone all this time.

Who knew.

@kirsanth
... Or rather. They failed to embark onto transports, before attempting to call out for help!

Billinator wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Billinator wrote:Unless the intention of clearing out SitW was due to anti-psy powers normally being ABLE to do such?

So SitW is getting singled out? There's nothing in the FAQ ruling to suggest that, just a simple "No."

But there's nothing in the FAQ ruling that suggests the opposite either?
- All there is to be found in the FAQ is that Tyranids SitW cannot penetrate transports..?

Right - so no hint either way, but there is a psychic defense ability that cannot penetrate transports. This raises the question of "Can other psychic defense abilities penetrate transports?"

As Sir_Prometheus said, no one wants to think about what the implications for other psychic defense are because it was a stupid ruling.

Point is, you cannot use one FAQ to create rulings for another codex. Sure, a TO might take the ruling into account when he's making his decision, but you cannot say definitively that one way is correct or not.

GW have contradicted themselves on nearly exact rulings in the past. I can dredge them up, if you like.

kirsanth wrote:

Billinator wrote:- All there is to be found in the FAQ is that Tyranids SitW cannot penetrate transports..?

All those astropaths have really just been lying to everyone all this time.

Who knew.

Though its also odd to note GK vehicles are psychic vehicles.. They must be the ultimate.. they swallow enemies and block their psy powers! they dont need hoods they have hulls!

puma713 wrote:Point is, you cannot use one FAQ to create rulings for another codex. Sure, a TO might take the ruling into account when he's making his decision, but you cannot say definitively that one way is correct or not.

GW have contradicted themselves on nearly exact rulings in the past. I can dredge them up, if you like.

I never said you should. I said that precedent exists, and that there is nothing definitive.

Kinda like how you cant attach a Tprime to a squad in a spore pod. Yet you can in a drop pod.

Its explained how to measure from an embarked unit, so the reverse also works.

Actually I wouldn't be surprised, if GW rules that other [non-xenos] psychic defense works just fine against units embarked in vehicles. We all know their feeling towards us 'Nid-lovers...

The Shadows of the Warp ruling is a rediculous error on the part of GW. There is nothing that states that a model inside a vehicle is immune to any psy hindering ability and if GW did want it to be played that way then the vast majority of psy defense would be useless.

You will be hard pressed to find any TO in their right mind that uses the Shadows precedence as a means to nullify pretty much all psy defense in the game.