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Alright, this may be stupid, but this is a random revelation I had about chaos in 40k and I felt like sharing.

So, the big thing about chaos is that it's not order. There isn't supposed to be like the big bureaucracies of the Imperium, the strict guidelines of the Eldar or the mind control of the Tau. BUT there is order in Chaos. There's a big hierarchy and everything. The people at the top order the people at the bottom. That didn't make much sense considering it's supposed to be, well, chaos.

Then it hit me like .22 at point blank range (I'm trying to sound like a noire detective but I don't think it's working). Chaos isn't about a lack of order. Chaos is about to follow your emotions, regardless of the consequences. I started applying this theory to the Traitor Legions and... it fit perfectly.

Sons of Horus/Black Legion-Horus became consumed by spite, jealousy, despair and anger directed towards his father. Without analyzing it from a logical viewpoint or the Emperor's perspective, he allied with chaos and started the Horus Heresy. Though it ultimately killed him, it accomplished his goal of hurting the Emperor and breaking the Imperium's back.

Alpha Legion-Okay, the Alpha Legion is complicated. However, my theory fits both back stories. Back Story 1: The Alpha Legion became arrogant that they, with their superior tactics and sneakiness, were better than the Imperium and unappreciated by it. Having been never close to the Emperor, they had no qualms about turning traitor. Without looking at it and saying, "Hey, maybe we should just point this out and talk to the other Primarchs" they followed their arrogance into heresy. Back Story 2: The Alpha Legion turned traitor cuz the Cabal said it was the only way to keep the Imperium alive. They looked at it from a detached, logical viewpoint (Option 1 destroys Imperium completely, Option 2 just cripples it, choose Option 1) and never actually turned to Chaos. They just played along to serve the Imperium in the long run.

Word Bearers-Lorgar was greatly uncomfortable with the idea that humanity was alone in an uncaring universe and spread the belief to his Legion. Instead of coming to terms with it, he let his emotions get the better of him and turned to chaos. BAM!

Iron Warriors-I bet yer thinking, 'But LoneLictor, the Iron Warriors' whole big thingy was that they were unemotional. Yer a slowed poop head.' Though I may be a slowed poop head, I'm still right. The Iron Warriors NEVER wanted to join Chaos. They wanted to master it! They thought that the whole weepy emotional thing was a weakness that they could capitalize on and use the power of Chaos to get what they believed they deserved and tear down the Imperium that neglected them! However, the opposite happened. Chaos dominated them.

Night Lords- The Night Lords capitalized on emotions, viewing them as signs of weakness and using them (especially fear) as weapons. This was too heartless even for the Imperium, so they turned away from it. Upon finding Chaos, they thought they could dominate it and use it as a weapon against the Imperium. Unlike with the Iron Warriors, Chaos was content to just dominate them. Their Legion was decimated and began to die and they were forced to turn to Chaos for help and to stay alive. Ouch.

So, it fit the undivided Legions. But what about the specialized Legions, especially the Death Guard or Thousand Sons who initially didn't want to turn to chaos?

Emperor's Children-This one is obvious really. Pleasure before logic ends badly, Fulgrim.

World Eaters-ANGRON IS ANGRY ALLL THE TIME! AAAAAAAJ!J!JHGFDIODSHJPHOJ!

Death Guard-The Death Guard turned away from the Imperium for the same reason as the Iron Warriors and the Sons of Horus. They felt unappreciated. However, they turned to Chaos for a much different reason. Typhus unleashed a big 'ol warp pox on all of 'em. They let their despair, combined with their pride, endurance and refusal to die, take control of them and pledged themselves to Nurgle. Admittedly they were kinda forced into it and as a result they don't fit my theory as well as some of the other Legions, but they still fit.

Thousand Sons- They let their arrogance, pride and thirst for knowledge lead them. It never occurred to the Thousand Sons that they might be wrong and maybe they should think about what they were unearthing before they started using it as a weapon. Ultimately they ended up serving Tzeentch, though how much they were forced into it is debatable.

So, what do you think? I am a babbling idiot? I am a babbling idiot whose right? Discuss!

I would say you have the right idea, but I think your over simplifying the word bearers and the thousands sons. The word bearers were the most loyal legion until the emperor got all pissed off because they were worshipping him and taking to slow to conquer anything. Its ironic that after the herersy is over, the imperium actually offically starts worshipping the emperor. You have to wonder if the emperor had dealt with the word bearers differently how the whole conflict would have went.

The thousands sons were loyal up until the space wolves destroyed their planet. Magnus was loyal, but dumb he tried to worn the emperor but didn't go about it right way. Also another blunder on the part of the emperor isolating a loyal sun and losing another powerful legion.

I think it sounds good, however that doesn't explain how there are Chan.s of command in chaos. However I think that is decided lime the orks. The leader is USUALLY the guy that can face-stomp any of his followers.

eviltrout wrote:I would say you have the right idea, but I think your over simplifying the word bearers and the thousands sons. The word bearers were the most loyal legion until the emperor got all pissed off because they were worshipping him and taking to slow to conquer anything. Its ironic that after the herersy is over, the imperium actually offically starts worshipping the emperor. You have to wonder if the emperor had dealt with the word bearers differently how the whole conflict would have went.

AFAIK basic sacred book of M40 Imperium is still Lorgar's "Lectitio Devinitatus". But ideaz of this book is something that Emperor contempts and was fighting to eliminate. And...with loyalist Word Bearers instead of Ecclesiarchy, Imperium will be truly frightenin' place to behold - with no place at last for all other SMs, no inependent Inquisition, just Word Bearers and Frateris Templars...maybe even AM would be declared heretics. Also - i think that "loyal" Lorgar would have too many ways to screw up during Heresy itself, up to possibility that some loyal legions would turn traitor 'cos of him.

eviltrout wrote:The thousands sons were loyal up until the space wolves destroyed their planet. Magnus was loyal, but dumb he tried to worn the emperor but didn't go about it right way. Also another blunder on the part of the emperor isolating a loyal sun and losing another powerful legion.

Don't you forget - arrogance of Magnus was his fall, moment he decided to disobey father's orders was his Rubicon...not to mention that in BLs Outcast Dead his "visitation" to Earth described as event on par with fall of asteroid, almost costing Imperium the war. Also there was explanation for Emperor's action - if you want to change future, you need to NOT foretell it.
And new timeline quirks there ...they're maddening, inconsistent with other books... but also sealing Magnus' fate more than anything else.

I like it. It kinda makes sense.

One thought is that the strong controlling the weak isn't a matter of order, that's just kinda how the 40kverse works.

While I agree with your Chaos isn't chaotic revelation, I would like to point out a few problems I saw.

The daemon princes who rule over their legions aren't the same as the chapter masters. They are there because they are the most powerful, but another chaos warrior could come along, kill the daemon prince, and become the new ruler. Kind of like how the orks do it. I wonder how many attempts on Abbaddon's life there have been by jealous chaos warriors.

Also, while the death guard were almost forced into their worship, they did do it willingly. Grandfather Nurgle did promise them eternal life and freedom from their pain. Typhon was the one who made it necessary for them to convert if they wanted to live. Typhon is a jerk.

Thousand Sons ended up serving tzeentch because Magnus threw a hissy fit and dragged them along to Tzeentch's domain, I can get the arrogance part but they did see the other side's view point on psychic powers they just saw it as unguided. Also why out of all 18 sons that we know anything about is MAgnus the only one that has anything remotely resembling the big E in terms of psychic powers? off topic I know.

In Aurelian Lorgar is showing huge psychic potential as well.

Slite wrote:While I agree with your Chaos isn't chaotic revelation, I would like to point out a few problems I saw.

The daemon princes who rule over their legions aren't the same as the chapter masters. They are there because they are the most powerful, but another chaos warrior could come along, kill the daemon prince, and become the new ruler. Kind of like how the orks do it. I wonder how many attempts on Abbaddon's life there have been by jealous chaos warriors.

First of all, Legions don't have Chapter Masters. The guys who led them were the Primarchs. Secondly, the same guys still lead most of the Legions. Only the Black Legion and the Night Lords have new rulers. And yeah, they could be replaced. That's part of what I talked about. Chaos is about following yer emotions and if it leads you to try and kill yer commander despite him being bigger and badder than you, so be it. However, few have been replaced, as I said.

Slite wrote:Also, while the death guard were almost forced into their worship, they did do it willingly. Grandfather Nurgle did promise them eternal life and freedom from their pain. Typhon was the one who made it necessary for them to convert if they wanted to live. Typhon is a jerk.

Yeah, I said they were somewhat forced into it but still somewhat willingly.

LoneLictor wrote:Chaos isn't about a lack of order.

It also isn't about space marines.

This is how I always understood Chaos. But the end result of following your emotions no matter what is still anarchy, which is what the Warp is made of. Emotions are illogical and without reason, so it makes sense that a realm made of them would be deemed 'Chaos'.

The laws of thermodynamics say chaos wins. Entropy increases over time. Hah!

That is a really good theory, and well supported. But as far as the DFeath Guard go, the way I heard it was that Mortarion couldn't bear to see his Legion die and suffer, so begged Nurgle to take it away in return for service.

So, by this, it was really Mortarion's compassion and love for his brother marines.

Deadshot wrote:That is a really good theory, and well supported. But as far as the DFeath Guard go, the way I heard it was that Mortarion couldn't bear to see his Legion die and suffer, so begged Nurgle to take it away in return for service.

So, by this, it was really Mortarion's compassion and love for his brother marines.

In a way. But also, he was too proud to die by a simple disease, and he was disgusted by the weakness of those who were to rule in the Emperor's stead. He was more his adoptive father's son than he ever wanted to believe.

LoneLictor wrote:

Slite wrote:While I agree with your Chaos isn't chaotic revelation, I would like to point out a few problems I saw.

The daemon princes who rule over their legions aren't the same as the chapter masters. They are there because they are the most powerful, but another chaos warrior could come along, kill the daemon prince, and become the new ruler. Kind of like how the orks do it. I wonder how many attempts on Abbaddon's life there have been by jealous chaos warriors.

First of all, Legions don't have Chapter Masters. The guys who led them were the Primarchs. Secondly, the same guys still lead most of the Legions. Only the Black Legion and the Night Lords have new rulers. And yeah, they could be replaced. That's part of what I talked about. Chaos is about following yer emotions and if it leads you to try and kill yer commander despite him being bigger and badder than you, so be it. However, few have been replaced, as I said.

Slite wrote:Also, while the death guard were almost forced into their worship, they did do it willingly. Grandfather Nurgle did promise them eternal life and freedom from their pain. Typhon was the one who made it necessary for them to convert if they wanted to live. Typhon is a jerk.

Yeah, I said they were somewhat forced into it but still somewhat willingly.

Ah, thank you for the clarification. I had read your main point at like 4 AM, trying to sleep... so didn't read it all and didn't get everything you were saying.

Instead of legions, I did mean to say chapters/warbands

Try typing out a Fandex, at midnight, after waking at 7am and spending the entire before day hand writing the Fandex.

Durza wrote:
In a way. But also, he was too proud to die by a simple disease, and he was disgusted by the weakness of those who were to rule in the Emperor's stead. He was more his adoptive father's son than he ever wanted to believe.

Mortarion intended to open fire on Horus' fleet when they finally got to earth. He had reconsidered his choice to betray the Emperor en route.

If Typhus hadn't killed their Navigators and trapped them in the Warp, the Death Guard would not have gone to chaos.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Durza wrote:
In a way. But also, he was too proud to die by a simple disease, and he was disgusted by the weakness of those who were to rule in the Emperor's stead. He was more his adoptive father's son than he ever wanted to believe.

Mortarion intended to open fire on Horus' fleet when they finally got to earth. He had reconsidered his choice to betray the Emperor en route.

If Typhus hadn't killed their Navigators and trapped them in the Warp, the Death Guard would not have gone to chaos.

Source? I don't remember this at all.

Slite wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Durza wrote:
In a way. But also, he was too proud to die by a simple disease, and he was disgusted by the weakness of those who were to rule in the Emperor's stead. He was more his adoptive father's son than he ever wanted to believe.

Mortarion intended to open fire on Horus' fleet when they finally got to earth. He had reconsidered his choice to betray the Emperor en route.

If Typhus hadn't killed their Navigators and trapped them in the Warp, the Death Guard would not have gone to chaos.

Source? I don't remember this at all.

Neither do I.

Typhus convinced Mortarion to let him kill the Navigators by saying they were still loyal to the Emperor. Why would he let Typhus kill them if he was loyal himself?

I think your right however I think its this way because its easy to tell a story with a moral, like a bible story, rather than because it was engineered that way from the beginning

When I was reading HH book 1 I remember thinking Horus was awesome and how would he ever turn. I think it was written well overall, and its along the lines you say, he had a flaw and it was exploited.

And yet the reverse is true - SM and IG are encouraged to feel hatred, contempt and anger towards their enemies, so its not just one sided.

Slite wrote:
Source? I don't remember this at all.

The olden days of the original Heresy stories. Probably won't be true anymore as they're furiously retconning everything.

LoneLictor wrote:Then it hit me like .22 at point blank range (I'm trying to sound like a noire detective but I don't think it's working). Chaos isn't about a lack of order. Chaos is about to follow your emotions, regardless of the consequences. I started applying this theory to the Traitor Legions and... it fit perfectly.

First thought: Yes.... The chaos gods are, at least partially, born from the emotion of the mortal races. For example, Slaneesh and the Fall. It makes sense that the gods, and their followers, embody primal forces such as emotions.

Second Thought: You know there's more to 40k than just marines, right?

daedalus wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:Then it hit me like .22 at point blank range (I'm trying to sound like a noire detective but I don't think it's working). Chaos isn't about a lack of order. Chaos is about to follow your emotions, regardless of the consequences. I started applying this theory to the Traitor Legions and... it fit perfectly.

First thought: Yes.... The chaos gods are, at least partially, born from the emotion of the mortal races. For example, Slaneesh and the Fall. It makes sense that the gods, and their followers, embody primal forces such as emotions.

Second Thought: You know there's more to 40k than just marines, right?

I know there's more than Sphess Mehrens. I actually have a Tyranid army that's larger than my CSM, both points wise and models wise.

Remember that absolutely none of the mortal or semi-mortal followers of Chaos in the 40k universe have the slightest fething clue what it is they're doing. They may be brilliant strategists, cunning manipulators, crazy scientists or warriors without equal... and yet, they still don't really grasp what it is they're doing. Whatever it is they're doing, they're doing it for themselves, whether that's wealth, power, prestige, revenge, bloody-mindedness, a quest for perfection, a quest for knowledge.... none of these things actually scratch the surface of what the Great Game is really about, and none of these pawns (to be sure, everything involved in the Great Game, apart from the Big Four, are pawns) knows how they're going to be played... but they will, indeed, get played. Like a Sega.

Chaos is simply unknowable, incomprehensible, utterly without rhyme or reason or logic. It simply is.

Isn't the goal of the 4 chaos Gods for them to gain enough power to destroy the other 3? Nugle wants Tzeenetch gone, Khorne wants Slaanesh gone... (and everyone else too).
Its like if the Imperium was actually portrayed as the evil xenophobic jerks they really are. Their goal is the eradication of all that isn't human.

I have to bet that maybe 1 follower has an idea of whats going on.

EDIT: Or I could totally be wrong and Chaos is simply chaotic indeed. Everyone dies for ever changing reasons.

Slite wrote:Isn't the goal of the 4 chaos Gods for them to gain enough power to destroy the other 3? Nugle wants Tzeenetch gone, Khorne wants Slaanesh gone... (and everyone else too).
Its like if the Imperium was actually portrayed as the evil xenophobic jerks they really are. Their goal is the eradication of all that isn't human.

I have to bet that maybe 1 follower has an idea of whats going on.

EDIT: Or I could totally be wrong and Chaos is simply chaotic indeed. Everyone dies for ever changing reasons.

Tzeentch was once more powerful than all the other 3.
They ganged up and nicked his staff...
That made him the same power as any one of them...

purplefood wrote:

Slite wrote:Isn't the goal of the 4 chaos Gods for them to gain enough power to destroy the other 3? Nugle wants Tzeenetch gone, Khorne wants Slaanesh gone... (and everyone else too).
Its like if the Imperium was actually portrayed as the evil xenophobic jerks they really are. Their goal is the eradication of all that isn't human.

I have to bet that maybe 1 follower has an idea of whats going on.

EDIT: Or I could totally be wrong and Chaos is simply chaotic indeed. Everyone dies for ever changing reasons.

Tzeentch was once more powerful than all the other 3.
They ganged up and nicked his staff...
That made him the same power as any one of them...

Nicked his staff? What happened?

His staff went on strike so he couldn't make his plans for the evening.

They shattered his staff and spread the shards all throughout time and space. Every spell is a shard of the staff, and that's one of the reasons Tzeenchians are trying to get every spell they can find. For once the staff of Tzeench is put back together their god will be the most powerful once again... until the others gang up on him again and shatter it into even smaller pieces.