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Which one would you rather have in 40k? The legions of pre- heresy? Or the chapters that are in currently? Mind you, think of your decision as replacing or keeping the chapters CURRENTLY. So we would have legions fighting; Tau, Tyranid, etc.

I would say legions because of the crushing power they give the Imperium

It's most likely that the Legions would be split up to head off multiple threats, so you'd likely have pseudo-chapters anyway.

Having Chapters allows for a plethora of different background elements and helps, in game terms, by allowing people to create their own chapter.

Chapters makes more sense given both the threats the Imperium is facing, the current situation of the Imperium both the lack of support for Marines and the lack of Marines.

Chapters give people room to create their own, so it's good for the hobby even if a lot of the home made Chapters are kinda silly, lol.

I think I'd like the Space Marines more if their organization made more sense. Because a Chapter needs to have more than 1000 Marines, otherwise they lose 40% of their manpower just crewing their vehicles (it takes just over 400 Marines to crew every vehicle (including Thunderhawks) listed at the back of the 3rd Edition of Codex Space Marines as being owned by the Ultramarines. And that list doesn't even seem like it is comprehensive enough in terms of the numbers of vehicles. So either the 1000 Marine total is incredibly inefficient, or the Chapters actually have closer to 1500 Marines or more.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Chapters give people room to create their own, so it's good for the hobby even if a lot of the home made Chapters are kinda silly, lol.

I think I'd like the Space Marines more if their organization made more sense. Because a Chapter needs to have more than 1000 Marines, otherwise they lose 40% of their manpower just crewing their vehicles (it takes just over 400 Marines to crew every vehicle (including Thunderhawks) listed at the back of the 3rd Edition of Codex Space Marines as being owned by the Ultramarines. And that list doesn't even seem like it is comprehensive enough in terms of the numbers of vehicles. So either the 1000 Marine total is incredibly inefficient, or the Chapters actually have closer to 1500 Marines or more.

The 1000 marines per chapter is more of a white lie...
It's unclear as to the true number but it is from 1000 to 1600 or so...
This of course depends on battle losses.

Also I don't think it's 400 MARINES. I think it's that many SERVITORS

TheAngrySquig wrote:Also I don't think it's 400 MARINES. I think it's that many SERVITORS

Not for their vehicles.
Marine driven.

Keep in mind that the Legions were divided into chapter sized fleets during the crusade. It wasn't one big giant legion fleet crushing planet after planet. Much like how the chapters right now are divided into companies, the legions of old were divided first into chapters (or fleets), and then into companies. Also during the time of the crusade, the fleets had access to not only space forces, but ground troops as well (not just marines, is what I'm getting at).

I'm for the Legions, even though as much as I love my Black Dragons, and Flesh Tearers, Legions would perhaps be the most effective.


That's just my opinion of course

TheAngrySquig wrote:Also I don't think it's 400 MARINES. I think it's that many SERVITORS

Servitors make up a lot of the manpower, but this is literally based on the crew sizes listed by GW of actual Space Marines. Servitors can do a lot of things, but you're still going to want something fully sentient controlling these vehicles. That, and they have always been listed as having Marines as crew, not servitors. Crews have actually shrunk over time. In 2nd Edition a Predator had four Marines as its crew. Land Speeders have Marine crew. It stands to reason the tanks do to. That, and the fact that the sprues come with Marine figures.

But a quick breakdown of the math I did for a similar discussion on B&C. 31 Thunderhawks for the Ultramarines. 3 Space Marines per Thunderhawk crew (4th is a Servitor). 93 Marines just for their Thunderhawks. The Armory has 25 Predators, 19 Razorbacks, 8 Vindicators and 9 Whirlwinds. That's another 122 Marines if we assume they are crewed by two Marines each with servitors or other automation handling reloading and some firing duties. Between the Armory, Headquarters, and the 1st Company, there are 21 Land Raiders. That's 63 Marines based on a listed crew of three. The Chapter lists 129 Rhinos. 129 Marines.

It requires approximately 407 Marines to operate every single vehicle in the Ultramarines armory at once, and that's assuming the Rhinos assigned to Headquarters aren't Damocles models or some such. That's almost every single Marine from the Reserve companies.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Also I don't think it's 400 MARINES. I think it's that many SERVITORS

Servitors make up a lot of the manpower, but this is literally based on the crew sizes listed by GW of actual Space Marines. Servitors can do a lot of things, but you're still going to want something fully sentient controlling these vehicles. That, and they have always been listed as having Marines as crew, not servitors. Crews have actually shrunk over time. In 2nd Edition a Predator had four Marines as its crew. Land Speeders have Marine crew. It stands to reason the tanks do to. That, and the fact that the sprues come with Marine figures.

But a quick breakdown of the math I did for a similar discussion on B&C. 31 Thunderhawks for the Ultramarines. 3 Space Marines per Thunderhawk crew (4th is a Servitor). 93 Marines just for their Thunderhawks. The Armory has 25 Predators, 19 Razorbacks, 8 Vindicators and 9 Whirlwinds. That's another 122 Marines if we assume they are crewed by two Marines each with servitors or other automation handling reloading and some firing duties. Between the Armory, Headquarters, and the 1st Company, there are 21 Land Raiders. That's 63 Marines based on a listed crew of three. The Chapter lists 129 Rhinos. 129 Marines.

It requires approximately 407 Marines to operate every single vehicle in the Ultramarines armory at once, and that's assuming the Rhinos assigned to Headquarters aren't Damocles models or some such. That's almost every single Marine from the Reserve companies.

Have you checked any fluff sources? Or thought of Machine spirits? Also, it isn't always going to be a fully armoured campaign, I doubt that a chapter would enlist the use of their vehicular force at once.

That's based on plenty of fluff and rulebook sources. The problem is, the canon is incomplete, and at times, contradictory. However, having an independent Armory just makes sense. That, and the 3E C:SM says that the vehicles accounted for include full crews. The only Space Marine tank with fluff references to having a Machine Spirit is the Land Raider. But remember, a "Machine Spirit" is just the techno-superstitious way of saying "advanced computer" in Imperiumese.

The thing is, even if they aren't committing 100% of their vehicles at any given time, they still have to be available. We already know that with a 10x100 we still end up with more than 1000 Marines due to the Techmarines, Apothecaries, Librarians etc. It makes no sense that a Space Marine Chapter would be intentionally handicapped by simple manpower restrictions. If we accept the established truth that Chapters have an Armory with its own organic Marine manpower, there's no longer a concern about the lack of Marines to crew the vehicles, nor the logistical headache of trying to plan out who and where to use them. And the one thing a commander could always use are extra bodies around. If the attack plan does not require drivers, sure they could be re-tasked elsewhere. They don't have to sit around. However, anyone who has ever read even a smidge of military history, or knows anything about the kinetic nature of the battlefield, it is unlikely that Space Marines are ever "sitting around" for very long. There will almost always be a need for the vehicle crews, but in the rare event they aren't needed, there will be no problem for the force commander to find something for them to do.

The Battle Company operating autonomously would lose an entire squad just to crew its own transports. We've been given a force organization chart by GW. It states 6-2-2 for the composition of a Battle Company. Not 5-2-2 plus drivers. It lists The 6th Company as composed of 10 Tactical Squads, not "Tactical squads, but more likely perpetually tasked as Thunderhawk crewmembers". Given the fact that many Space Marine chapters, the Ultramarines included, are typically split up into difference forces doing their own thing across their sectors of the galaxy, it isn't about what the Chapter as a whole is doing, but how to balance this manpower across different expeditionary strike forces. The idea of a commander having to use precognition as to whether or not he might need his armored units, or, say, a Thunderhawk, on a fluid battlefield is downright absurd.

Chapters that are almost Legion sized (BT, I'm looking at you!)

There are more chapters than legions, and chapters often combine to fight a large threat, they also combine with guard occasionally

Legions are what made the imperium glorious. They basically made people more proud and more appreciative of where they belong, much like comparing the states in america where there is alot of pride for there orginations compared to England where we all think where we grow up is a fethhole.

Legions all the way. Ther sheer overwhelming force they could bring to the table makes them an instant winner, in my eyes. Plus the drama and the glory that goes hand-in-hand with the original Legions gives me the warm and fuzzies

Chapters, because the Imperium can't survive another Horus Heresy.

Not only would a Primarch be able to take on what an enitre Chapter would do, because no one could lead a legion other tan a Primarch. ot to mention no one couild stand before a full legion, save othe rlegions.

Remember Sicarius' crusade to fight the Tau, and lots of other chaopters sent aid and troops? Well that was stuff from a dozen chapters. Imagine a full legion, in 1 cohesive force. The Tau would be dead before they even realised it. Not to mention the Nids would be epelled so much it isn't even funny, and The CSM would be given a run for their money.

Nice to meet you failbbaddon. I'm Dorn.

Deadshot wrote:Nice to meet you failbbaddon. I'm Dorn.

"I was cut down by a normal CSM, so your chances a pretty good!"

Legions would be amazing, if Marines would go back to full legion sizes in table top terms then every marine codex would be running their version of black tide. (HeHe, i like the thought of horde marines)

Castiel wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Nice to meet you failbbaddon. I'm Dorn.

"I was cut down by a battleship full of normal CSM when i was on my own. So your chances aare pretty bad!"

Fixed that for you...

Legions! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344589.page

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Legions! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344589.page

Wow it's amazing how the rewording of the question can change opinions...

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Legions! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344589.page

Wow it's amazing how the rewording of the question can change opinions...

Indeed.

Why go back to legions? It's already been proven one man with too much power is easily corrupted. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Draigo wrote:Why go back to legions? It's already been proven one man with too much power is easily corrupted. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Well would it matter? I mean there's corruption everywhere already, look at all the worlds that have turned to chaos because of some dumb arsed governor?

I think if a primarch came back and led a legion, I would be behind it. But other than that, I agree with what you said.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Draigo wrote:Why go back to legions? It's already been proven one man with too much power is easily corrupted. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Well would it matter? I mean there's corruption everywhere already, look at all the worlds that have turned to chaos because of some dumb arsed governor?

I think if a primarch came back and led a legion, I would be behind it. But other than that, I agree with what you said.

Yeah but that is corruption on a smaller scale...
If a CM goes rogue he will only take his chapter.
If the commander of a legion went rogue he could take anything from 3,000 to 60,000 (That was the UM number right?) marines...
It still only takes 1 person to be corrupted but this way it is safer...

purplefood wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Draigo wrote:Why go back to legions? It's already been proven one man with too much power is easily corrupted. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Well would it matter? I mean there's corruption everywhere already, look at all the worlds that have turned to chaos because of some dumb arsed governor?

I think if a primarch came back and led a legion, I would be behind it. But other than that, I agree with what you said.

Yeah but that is corruption on a smaller scale...
If a CM goes rogue he will only take his chapter.
If the commander of a legion went rogue he could take anything from 3,000 to 60,000 (That was the UM number right?) marines...
It still only takes 1 person to be corrupted but this way it is safer...

I kind of like the idea of rogue chapters, or another heresy would make for some interesting stories, but then again in the imperium's shoes, yeah it doesn't seem like a great idea if you put it that way

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

purplefood wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Draigo wrote:Why go back to legions? It's already been proven one man with too much power is easily corrupted. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Well would it matter? I mean there's corruption everywhere already, look at all the worlds that have turned to chaos because of some dumb arsed governor?

I think if a primarch came back and led a legion, I would be behind it. But other than that, I agree with what you said.

Yeah but that is corruption on a smaller scale...
If a CM goes rogue he will only take his chapter.
If the commander of a legion went rogue he could take anything from 3,000 to 60,000 (That was the UM number right?) marines...
It still only takes 1 person to be corrupted but this way it is safer...

I kind of like the idea of rogue chapters, or another heresy would make for some interesting stories, but then again in the imperium's shoes, yeah it doesn't seem like a great idea if you put it that way

Well everything the Imperium does nowadays is for survival.
It still expands but even the expansions are just so the Imperium has more space to get soldiers, food and war materials from and possibly another place to retreat to if necessary.