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Well the idea of this project is to try and make a better and more thought out WoC list that allows the use of any mono god army which also allows for the mixing of Chaos gods.

Updated 2012/11


Eye of the Gods

Characters: If a character kills a enemy character (including unit champions) or large target must roll on the eye of the table, if they kill a character in a challenge they may add or subtract one from the roll. Sorcerer must roll on the table if they kill a character or large target with a spell, character that receive 5 or more gifts must take a Toughness of test, if failed the character is turned into a Chaos spawn with a number of wounds equal to his remaining wounds, if marked the chaos spawn will bear the same mark.

Units: A unit ( apart for marauders) may roll on the eye of the table if it successful wins a round a of combat on a roll of a 6+, add one to the roll if they break the enemy unit and a additional +1 if they catch the enemy unit. This replaces the will of chaos rule


Special Rules

Champions of the Dark Gods: Any model in the unit with this rule may issue and except challenges as if it was a unit champion.

Enscrolled Weapons: A model with this special rule treats all its attacks as magical.

Daemonic: Models are treated as having magical attacks, stubborn and have a 5+ wardsave, if the model already have a wardsave it is instead increased by one to a maximum of a 4+

Daemonic Mounts: if your general is mounted on a daemonic mount the his leadership range is boost to 18" just like as if he was mounted on a large target, wounds upgraded to 3. Additional if you have a character riding a daemonic mount, chaos knights of the same mark may be upgraded to riding matching daemonic mounts (so if you include a hero on a jugger your chaos knights may be upgraded to ride juggernauts of Khorne)


Army Selection

When selection of army the minimum core must bear the same mark as your general, if you general has the mark of Chaos undivided then your minimum core may have any Mark of Chaos.


Marks of Chaos


MoK

Units: Units with the Mark of Khorne gain the frenzy special rule

Characters and Chaos Spawn: In addition to the Frenzy special rule Characters and Chaos spawn with the Mark of Khorne also gain the killing blow special rule

Warshrines: In additional to the normal mark of Khorne rules the giver of glory rule is replaced with "when a enemy targets a friendly unit within 12" of the warhsrine, you may add +1 to your dispel attempts, friendly units within 6" of the warshrine may reroll any rolls of a 1 to hit.

Giants: No Marks



MoN

Units and Spawn: Units that bear the Mark of Nurgle gain the Regeneration 5+ special rule

Characters: In addition to the regeneration special rule, characters that bear the Mark of Nurgle now cause fear, if they already cause fear they now cause Terror instead

Warshrines: In addition to the normal rules for the mark of nurgle the giver of glory rule is replaced with "models within 6" gain the poison 6 special rule, if they already have the poison special rule then the unit/model causes poison hits on a roll of 5+ instead



MoS

Units: Units that bear the Mark of Slaanesh are immune to fear, terror and Panic, in addition to this they gain the strider special rule.

Characters and Spawn: In addition to the above rules Characters and Chaos Spawn that bear the Mark of slaanesh gain the ASF special rule

Warshrines: In edition to the normal rules for the Mark of Slaanesh the giver of glory rule is replaced with "all friendly models within 6" of the warshrine are now stubborn



Mark of Tzeentch

Units: Units that bear the Mark of Tzeentch must roll on the eye of the gods table at the start of the battlem this result may not be modified by any means

Characters: In addition to the above rules, characters that bear the Mark of Tzeentch may be upgraded to a sorcerer, Exalted heroes may purchase up to two wizard levels while chaos lords may purchase up to four sorcerer levels at 50pts per level, Chaos sorcerers (not exalted or daemon prince) add +1 to their casting and dispelling attempts.

Warshrines: In addition to the normal rules for the Mark of Tzeentch The giver of glory rule is replaced with "All Friendly wizards add +1 to their attempts to channel and all friendly bound magic adds +1 to the casting roll.



Mark of Chaos Undivided:

Models that bear the mark f Chaos undivided my reroll failed panic tests.



Magical Weapons

Axe of Khorne: Great weapon. The model gains the killing blow special rule, if the model already has the killing blow special rule it is replaced with the heroic Killing blow special rule.
Sword of Change: +1 Strength, every time a model takes a wound but is not slain they must take a toughness test, if the test is failed the enemy model is transformed in a chaos spawn
Chaos Daemon Sword: The wielder is +d3 Strength (roll at the start of each round of combat), in addition, the model increases it attacks by +1 for every enemy character slain in a challenge, roll at the start of every turn the wielder is not engaged on close combat, on a roll of a one the the take a wound with no armour save allowed.


Magical Armour

Spelleater shield: Shield. Any spell that targets the unit will miscast on a roll of a double, any spell that suffers a miscast is lost for the remainder of the battle on a roll of a 6+
Armour of Damnation: Chaos Armour. Any model attacking the wearer must reroll succesful to hit rolls, if the model can reroll to hit the two rules cancel each other out.
Chaos Runeshield: Shield. Any magical weapon in base to base contact with the wearer is losers all it special rules and it treated as a mundane weapon of the same type


Arcane Items

Skull of Katam: The bearer counts as one wizard level higher than normal but is subject to stupidity for the remainder of the game


Enchanted Items

Helm of Man eyes:The model gains the always strike first special rule and stupidity special rule


Magical Banners

Banner of the Gods: The model bearing the banner causes terror, in addition, any chaos unit within 6" of the banner also gains the devastating charge special rule
Rapturous Standard: Enemy models in base to base combat with the unit are at -1 WS, in addition a enemy unit may not make a stand and shoot charge reaction but may make all other reactions as normal


Chaos Gifts

Skulltaker: (MoK only)The hero now causes a killing blow on a 5+ instead of the normal 6+, this has no effect on heroic killing blow
Chosen of Khorne: (MoK only)When the model issues a challenge he may force an enemy character to automatically accept his challenge providing the enemy model can actually move into base to base contact.
Fury of the Blood God: (MoK only)The model may attempt to dispel spells as if a level 2 sorcerer.

Stream of Corruption: (MoN only)Breathe weapon, models hit by stream of corruption must pass a strength test or suffer a single wound with a -2 save modifier
Slime Trail: (MoN Only)The model and any unit he joins is with is treated as having no flank or rear for the purpose of combat res

Aroma of Ecstasy: (MoS only)Enemy units/models in base to base contact with the character decrease their initiative value by 2
Allure of Slannesh: (MoS only)Enemy models wishing to attack the character must first pass a leadership test on their unmodified leadership, if they fail the attacks are wasted


Wind Changer: (MoT only)You may reroll the Winds of Magic dice, but the second result stands. 60pts
3rd Eye of Tzeentch: (MoT only)The sorcerer may choose any lore from the warhammer rulebook, the sorcerer has gains the loremaster special rule. 35pts

Diabolic Splendour: As Book
Conjoined Homunculus: Once per turn the sorcerer may choose to add a extra D6 to his casting roll, this extra can cause a Irresistable force. At the start of his following turn the character must test for stupidity.
Extra Arm: The character has an extra arm, this means he may wield a additional weapon for a extra +1 attack (unless wielding a magical weapon) or use a shield and a two handed weapon.
Immortal Furry: The model is subject to the rules of hatred



Units

Warrior Priest of Khorne: 100pts (this is going to be developed into a special character later on)

M:4 WS:6 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:4 A:3 :Ld

Equipment: Chaos armour and hand weapon

Magic Items: May take up to 100pts of magic items and 25pts of chaos gifts

Special rules: Will of chaos, Champions of the Dark Gods, Mark of Khorne, Blood Priest

Blood Priest: As a Priest of the Blood he may may attempt to dispel as if a level 1 one wizard, additional he may cast one power from the list below once per turn which is treated as a bound lvl 6 spell


1: all wizards (friend or foe) will miscast on any roll of a double
2: Unit is subject to Hatred in the following CC phase
3: Unit weapons gain the AP special rule
4: All spells in the following magic phase have their casting values increase by



Chaos Warriors: 14pts each

M:4 WS:5 BS:3 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:5 A:2 Ld 8

Unit Size: 10+
Equipment: Hand weapon, Chaos armour
Special Rules: Champions of the Dark Gods, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Eye of the Gods
Options:

Great Weapons + 2pts
Additional Hand weapons +1pts
Halberds +3pts
Shields +1pts
Standard + 15pts
Musician + 10pts

Marks of Chaos: May Exchanged the Mark of Chaos undivided for one of the following:

Mark of Khorne + 30pts
Mark of Nurgle + 40pts
Mark of Slaanesh + 25pts
Mark of Tzeentch + 20pts

May take a magical Standard up to 50pts


Chaos Knights: 35pts per model

Chaos Knight: M:4 WS:5 S:5 T:4 W:1 I:5 A:2 Ld8
Chaos Steed: M:8 WS:3 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:5
Daemonic Steed: M8 WS:4 BS:0 S:5 T:4 W:2 I:4 A:2 Ld: 8

Equipment: Chaos armour, hand weapon, shields, barded steeds

Marks of Chaos: May Exchanged the Mark of Chaos undivided for one of the following:

Mark of Khorne + 30pts
Mark of Nurgle + 40pts
Mark of Slaanesh + 35pts
Mark of Tzeentch + 20pts

Options: Standard + 15pts , Musician + 10pts

Lances: 4pts Per model per model
Barded Daemonic steeds + 15pts per model (one unit in the army may be upgraded to ride daemonic steeds)

Special rules:champions of the Dark gods, Eye of the Gods,



Chaos Marauders: 6pts per model

Marauder M:4 WS:4 S:3 T:3 I:3 A:1 Ld:7
Champion M:4 WS:4 S:4 T:3 I:3 A:2 Ld:7

Equipment: Hand weapon, shield, light armour

Options: Standard + 15pts, champion +15pts Musician + 10pts

Model in the unit may be upgraded with the following

Great Weapons: 2pts per model
Flails: 1pts per model





Chosen Warriors: 18pts each

M:4 WS:6 BS:3 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:6 A:2 Ld 8

Unit Size: 10+
Equipment: Hand weapon, Chaos armour
Special Rules: Champions of the Dark Gods, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Eye of the Gods, Enscrolled Weapons
Options:

Great Weapons + 3pts
Additional Hand weapons +2pts
Halberds +4pts
Shields +1pts
Standard + 15pts
Musician + 10pts

Marks of Chaos: May Exchanged the Mark of Chaos undivided for one of the following:

Mark of Khorne + 30pts
Mark of Nurgle + 40pts
Mark of Slaanesh + 25pts
Mark of Tzeentch + 20pts

May take a magical Standard up to 75pts


Exalted Champion of Chaos: 120pts

M:4 WS:7 BS:3 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:6 A:4 Ld 8

Equipment: Hand weapon, Chaos armour
Special Rules: Mark of Chaos Undivided, Eye of the Gods, Enscrolled Weapons
Options:

Great Weapons + 4pts
Additional Hand weapons +4pts
Halberds +6pts
Shields +2pts

Marks of Chaos: May Exchanged the Mark of Chaos undivided for one of the following:

Mark of Khorne + 30pts
Mark of Nurgle + 40pts
Mark of Slaanesh + 30pts
Mark of Tzeentch + 30pts

Barded Steed + 16pts
Daenomic Mount +40pts
Juggernaugt of Khone + 50pts
Rotbeast of Nurgle + 50pts
Disc of Tzeentch + 35pts
Steed of Slaanesh + 40pts
Chariot + 100pts

Magic items: May take up to 50pts of Magic Items
Chaos Gifts: May take up to 25pts of Chaos Gifts



Chaos Lord: 190pts

M:4 WS:8 BS:3 S:5 T:5 W:3 I:7 A:5 Ld 9

Equipment: Hand weapon, Chaos armour
Special Rules: Mark of Chaos Undivided, Eye of the Gods, Enscrolled Weapons
Options:

Great Weapons + 6pts
Additional Hand weapons +6pts
Halberds +8pts
Shields +4pts

Marks of Chaos: May Exchanged the Mark of Chaos undivided for one of the following:

Mark of Khorne + 30pts
Mark of Nurgle + 40pts
Mark of Slaanesh + 30pts
Mark of Tzeentch + 30pts

Barded Steed + 24pts
Daenomic Mount +40pts
Juggernaugt of Khone + 50pts
Rotbeast of Nurgle + 50pts
Disc of Tzeentch + 35pts
Steed of Slaanesh + 40pts
Chariot + 100pts
Chaos Dragon + 320pts

Magic items: May take up to 100pts of Magic Items
Chaos Gifts: May take up to 50pts of Chaos Gifts


Daemon Prince: 250pts

M:8 WS:8 BS:3 S:5 T:5 W:4 I:7 A:5 Ld 8

Equipment: Hand weapon, Chaos armour
Special Rules: Mark of Chaos Undivided, Eye of the Gods, Daemonic, Terror
Options:

Fly + 20pts

Marks of Chaos: May Exchanged the Mark of Chaos undivided for one of the following:

Mark of Khorne + 30pts
Mark of Nurgle + 40pts
Mark of Slaanesh + 30pts
Mark of Tzeentch + 30pts

Unless given the Mark of Khorne then the daemon prince may be upgraded to a sorcerer at 35pts per magic level up to a maximum of lvl4

Magic items: May take up to 100pts of Magic Items
Chaos Gifts: May take up to 50pts of Chaos Gifts


Chaos Warshrine: 120pts (rare)

Chaos Warshrine: M:- WS:- BS:- S:- 4 T:5 W:4 I:- A:- Ld::
Warrior Priest: M:- WS:5 BS:3 S:4 T:- W:- A:2 Ld:2
Chaos Steed: M:8 WS:3 BS:- S:4 T:- W:- A:1 Ld:-

Unit Size: 1

Equipment: Hand weapon, Chaos armour (crew)

Crew: 1 Chaos warrior Priest

Drawn by: Drawn by two barded chaos steeds

Unit Type: Chariot

Armour save: 3+


Marks of Chaos: May Exchanged the Mark of Chaos undivided for one of the following:

Mark of Khorne + 30pts
Mark of Nurgle + 40pts
Mark of Slaanesh + 35pts
Mark of Tzeentch + 20pts

(note prices are temporary)

Special Rules: Giver of Glory, 4+ wardsave

Giver of Glory

Bound spell (4), Select a chaos unit within 12" of the warshrine, that unit gets a free roll on the eye of the gods table.


being a mount for a sorcerer could be a very interesting idea, will have to see what other people think of that



Dragon Ogres: 65pts (?)

M:7 WS:4 BS:2 S:5 T:5 W:4 I:2 A:3 Ld 8

Unit Size: 3+
Equipment: Hand weapon, Light Armour
Special Rules: Scaly skin (5+), Fear, Storm Rage,
Options: Great Weapons + 10pts, additional Hand weapons +6pts

Stormrage

Any lightning based attack targeted at a unit within 12" of the dragon ogres is directed at the dragon ogres instead on a roll of a 6+, work out the attack as normal, every wound causes actually restores a wound to the unit previous lost during the battle.


Dragon Orge Shaggoth: 240pts

M:7 WS:6 BS:2 S:6 T:6 W:6 I:4 A:5 Ld 9

Unit Size: 1
Equipment: Hand weapon, Light armour
Special Rules: Scaly skin (5+), The will of chaos, Terror, Storm Rage, Immune to psychology, eye of the Gods, Ancient Promise
Options: Great Weapons + 12pts, additional Hand weapons +8pts

Stormrage

Any lightning based attack targeted at a unit within 12" of the Shaggoth is directed at the dragon ogres instead on a roll of a 5+, work out the attack as normal, every wound causes actually restores a wound to the unit previous lost during the battle.



Possible Khorne special character (arbaal) who allows chaos knights to ride juggers rather than daemonic steeds (he wont be riding a flesh hound anymore)

WoC is extremely comptetive now. Right now.

I couldn't really read it past the marks and table because you made them soooooo unbelievably overpowered.

Warriors of Chaos are the best elite (Core) infantry in the game. Any of those marks would make them absurdly over the top. For 10 pts with a MoS, WoC fighting WoC would need 6+ to hit vs. 4+. With 4T and Chaos Armor they would be invulnerable to just about everything. They start beating Ogres who can't hit 'em and can't hurt 'em.

I can see you took a lot of time on this, but the first question you need to ask in any endeavor like this is, "is the race hurting?" Then, "if so, how?" I can't see anyone saying with a straight face that WoC are getting beat up now or somehow short-changed.

If you wanted to make some rules for a campaign, that's fine. These would be some decent bad guys for everyone to fight. But, you know, having an entire unit become Daemonic based on a die roll is huge. I mean that's entirely what Daemons are. That's their advantage, except yours aren't Unstable.

DukeRustfield wrote:WoC is extremely comptetive now. Right now.

I couldn't really read it past the marks and table because you made them soooooo unbelievably overpowered.

Warriors of Chaos are the best elite (Core) infantry in the game. Any of those marks would make them absurdly over the top. For 10 pts with a MoS, WoC fighting WoC would need 6+ to hit vs. 4+. With 4T and Chaos Armor they would be invulnerable to just about everything. They start beating Ogres who can't hit 'em and can't hurt 'em.

Not to sound rude but did you even read the first paragraph? I clearly said I need to rethink the MoS, How would MoK being KB make them over the top? you give a chaos warrior a halberd and most things only get a 6+ save with the current MoK you just get more attacks, the only thing it effects is characters and cavalry, the only characters I see are wizards and BSB's, its rare to see anything else and bar Brets how much in the way of cavalry do you actually see? Most armies I see have a lvl4 sorcerer, a lvl2, a BSB and some horde units. MoN, how is that worse than MoT, well it isn't, you can't have 3+ wardsave characters, its negated by KB and flaming attacks and doesn't stack with a wardsave, not mention the fact it makes more sense from the fluff that nurgle is the anvil type unit.

Not really sure what you mean by a table? I haven't done a table, I did a summary of special rules, no unit becomes daemonic on a dice roll??? The daemonic rule is for daemon princes and possibly lesser daemons, the wardsave part is because I have allowed daemon princes to take magic items, at best they can get a 4+.......Yes they can get a rewarded from the gods from killing stuff , its a on a roll of a 6+, 5+ if they break a enemy (which isn't easy with steadfast and BSB's) and 4+ if they catch them, marauders cannot roll on the table, I also said the table needs to be redone, for starts removing 4+ ward and stubborn and with more negative and pointless results.

Your question is answered in the opening paragraph

"Is the race hurting?"

DukeRustfield wrote:"Is the race hurting?"

I dont normally agree with Duke but he is right on this one

Right now our book has an answer to everything and I will be overjoyed if we do not get a update this edition.

Also making Shaggoths the most OP thing in fantasy seems cool but really.... Its like a Stonehorn made sweet sweet love to Dwarf Lord

I agree with the 2 posts above.

The book is currently solid, an update would be nice but hey I am more than fine with the way things are.

Maybe we could just use the shagoth from here in the book that would be nice. Decent motivation to spend the 70 bucks for him.

I find the marks are too expensive and warriors being I4 sort of sucks I mean they are supposed to be the most bad ass fighters around.
The marks are bit of a problem. You make the warriors cheaper and make the marks more expensive and possibly less good.

Kb is really quite harsh. Example you have a guy that sitting in his fancy armor that gives him a 2+ AS some random warrior of khorne comes by and beheads him the end.
That and frenzy seems more appropriate and kb is supposed to be for those that have been a fighter for years. If say all fighty characters got it that would be cool because I am quite sure a chaos hero would be able to just chop a guys head off.

The mot is crazy expensive and eats power dice.

The things I would like to see for the new book would be.

Make shaggoth and daemon prince a viable choice.

Keep warriors awesome.

Each of the marks having a use rather than one being OP but still making it possible to make a themed army.

Jugger knights seem like an awesome idea that could be cool to see.

Interesting Idea how ever needs some work tho.

I just read the knights entry again and Chaos Knights + Steeds of Slannesh+ +1 Movement banner = epic charge or atleast brutal march

DukeRustfield wrote:"Is the race hurting?"

Your answer is in the first post, I dislike the book and have hated it since it came out, personally I like the HoC book far more.

Well being a WoC player since 4th ed and loving the old HoC book I have decided to have a go at writing something that is more to my tastes as a fluff based player

cowpow16 wrote:Kb is really quite harsh. Example you have a guy that sitting in his fancy armor that gives him a 2+ AS some random warrior of khorne comes by and beheads him the end.

Which is different to a random bloodletter, tombguard or graveguard, in the first post I said I have played about with other ideas, Devastating charge, hatred, why is frenzy more fitting? because Khorne is the blood god? is that all he is? well no that isn't the cash, he is the god war, his champions are excellent warriors, being a loon doesn't make you a good warrior, it actually makes you a terrible warrior, for me KB seems the most fitting, highly skilled warrior should be able to kill people in a single strike, also seeing how all the daemons of Khorne have KB you can't say it doesn't make sense. It wasn't my first choice, I had a similar reaction when I had it suggested to me, it was up with T5 nurgle warriors but to step back, think about how the game actually works and it isn't unbalanced, like I said the game is about killing large block of troops, not characters or cavalry, so yes suddenly characters become vulnerable to lucky hits but what characters do we normally see in a game? Wizards and BSB's You have more to consider with KB vs Frenzy:

KB is on useful vs infantry and cavalry
Frenzy is useful against everyone
KB makes little effect in combats against most troops a chaos warrior will break
Frenzy will usually always make a difference

Honestly I think you are thinking of KB in a very limited fasion

The mot is crazy expensive and eats power dice.

If you read the first post I said I need to rethink MoT as well, but here are some quotes

at the moment the list is very much alpha stage and more a consolidation of ideas,

Mark of Khorne keeps changing, not a massive fan of frenzy, had hatred, devastating charge, MR, I don't know KB + MR1 might be better for the mark, I have no doubts some people will think KB is broken on chaos warriors, I don't happen to agree, not in 8th anyways. The game is more about killing large blocks on infantry than cavalry and characters.

Make shaggoth and daemon prince a viable choice.

Keep warriors awesome.

Each of the marks having a use rather than one being OP but still making it possible to make a themed army.

Thats exactly what I want!

Jugger knights seem like an awesome idea that could be cool to see.

Interesting Idea how ever needs some work tho.

I have had two trains of thought here, the first was to make a new unit type, chosen knights (well bring back the old uni really) and then have them on daemonic steeds as standard with the options for marked steeds, the other is taking and idea from Tarmurkhan, the later idea is gives you a reason to use characters on daemonic mounts which currently have no use, still with chaos knight upgrade unit it may be easier just to have standard daemonic mounts rather than like a million steed options, but this does kill the idea of knights of juggers which is clearly so damned cool.

Johnny-Crass wrote:I just read the knights entry again and Chaos Knights + Steeds of Slannesh+ +1 Movement banner = epic charge or atleast brutal march

Problem is Slannesh steeds have been M10 for as long as I can remember, so this goes back to what I said above, it might be just as well to only have daemonic steeds as the only mount option for chaos knights, but it kills the Jugger rider idea which in reality is to cool not to do, you also can't have juggers as the only option, becomes abit unfair, I guess the only other option is to have daenomic mounts changed via marks

Khorne steeds: +1 WS, MR1
Slaanesh: ASF,
Nurgle: Poison
Tzeentch: flaming attacks

Johnny-Crass wrote:Right now our book has an answer to everything and I will be overjoyed if we do not get a update this edition.

Also making Shaggoths the most OP thing in fantasy seems cool but really.... Its like a Stonehorn made sweet sweet love to Dwarf Lord

I originally had it as just +1T but what does that really fix? its still going to be dead in two turns, problem with warhammer right now is that cannons are the answer to everything, I would point it I don't believe the rules I made are that over powered, no it can't be instant deathed but it is still T5, it does not have Regen, just normal armour so troops can still kill it, its not stubborn so it can still be broken from combat, it doesn't have a breath weapon, maybe a 3+ save would be better?

Cool rule for the shaggoth might be a things that do more than one wound can only do a maximum of d3-1 to a minimum of 1 wounds.
It makes sense with the fluff I mean you have the mountain sized angry beast I don't think you are just going to one shot it.

Frenzy is nice because even the description in the book makes it sound fitting. They are more focused on killing rather than oh parry this or that they are just hacking and slashing and chaos armor is still not a joke.

You have some good ideas no question but it does need some work.

I would like to see warriors with the same great stat line

That and I don't think I would pay 6 points for a naked marauder. Seems like a bit of a bad investment since they will cost just under half as much as a warrior and will have 0 protection.

Rules for archaon on foot would be nice to see in the new book.

D3 wounds certainly works for the shaggoth, I mean I admitt I got abit carried away here, I was trying to do something abit more interesting with it. How about the stormrage, I know its been makes them frenzied for a while but i don't think that fits the description.

While I agree with you the current book sounds more like, I would change it, make the fluff for Khorne more complex rather than Orcs i chaos armour. I think if I went back to frenzy then I would also return two the two stage Mark, units have one mark and the characters have a upgraded Mark.


MoK:

units with MoK have Frenzy
Characters and Spawn have frenzy and KB


MoN:

units and spawn with MoN have Regen 5+
Characters with MoN have Regen+ and cause fear


MoT:

Units with MoT may roll on the eye of the gods table at the start the game
Characters with MoT may roll on the eye of the gods table but add or subject one from this roll only
Spawn with MoT have a S3 breath weapon with a -2 save mod and flaming attacks
Sorcerers with MoT add one to casting rolls

MoS:

units with MoS have the strider special rule and are immune to fear, terror and Panic
Characters with the MoS same as above but have the ASF special rule
Spawn with MoS have the ASF special rule

Thanks, I have no illusions that the ideas are perfect,

Chaos warriors are debatable, I have no real issue with them being I4 or 5 however I think it brings them more inline with the character stats. I4 does however feel how it should be, frankly I would rather have bigger units. One of the main things with I4 is it helps with the great weapon and halberd issue, problem with I5 is it makes Halberds the auto choice, I think these need to increase in points in addition so when you select your army the weapon choices for you unit are not so automatic.

I don't think I would either, keep in mind the marauders I did come with light armour and the increased great weapon cost is to stop them being so abusive as they are now.

Archoan on foot would certainly be very cool!

You shouldn't need str 6 normal guys.

I like the split mark since characters are supposed to be bad ass. Maybe hkb on lords since I think they are bad ads enough to tell something no and then cut it's head off.

Sadly I think that jugger knights are a bit too unfluffy after going over the jugger fluff.

Mot maybe +1 to dispel too.

An idea I have been toying with that if they dispell with 2 or more 6s that the enemy looses a power dice seems tz enough.

itsonlyme wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:"Is the race hurting?"

Your answer is in the first post, I dislike the book and have hated it since it came out, personally I like the HoC book far more.

Well being a WoC player since 4th ed and loving the old HoC book I have decided to have a go at writing something that is more to my tastes as a fluff based player

Okay, that's fine. But this is proposed RULES. We were telling you that anything you fight will get slaughtered based upon the above unless they are equally buffed.

I don't play WoC but I like that fact that you are changing Tzeentch from the god of ward saves to the god of change. bravo! The main complaint I have against WoC is the chosen + re-roll gift a million times + War shrine combo. I think alot of people dislike this rule as well.

I play Tzeentch daemons, so that is why I liked your attempts at Tzeentch. I think most WoC wont like your changes because the current book is very good rulewise, even if not beloved by "fluff players".

@ cowpow16 - Well depends who you are facing, S6 is extremely useful against anything T4, be a character, a unit of dwarfs, monsters etc, heavily armoured units (knights and chaos warriors) currently because:

a) Halberds are two cheap
b) Chaos warriors are I5

Halberds simply are better than every other option, S6 units have a use, just the trade off isn't so great. Reducing the I value makes halberds less of a automatic option, the trade off isn't as great. It also means that spells like the dreaded 13th are not needed to deal with such units. The reality is in combat only a few units now get to strike first and a few characters.

I remember when they used to be WS6 and I6 and for 6th they got so nerfed, WS5, I5 A1, so for me its such a minor nerf I wouldn't cry to much as long as the price reduction is ok.

The split mark was the original idea I had, I wasn't 100% sure about it so I am happy to go with that, I do think KB is better as you can link this in with magic items:


An example would be changing Axe of Khorne to:

Axe of Khorne: Great weapon. The model gains the KB special rule, if the model already has the KB special rule then it upgraded to the HKB special rule.

This allows for synergy with the marks while not restricting them to a god, as the magic item list needs to be cut down to about 10 you really retain the idea of a Khorne hero being better with a Khorne weapon but a slaanesh champion who kills a Khorne hero and takes is still able to use it.

It a shame, well then I will adjust the knights into just daemonic steeds, MC is a unit that is needed to make thinks like jugger heroes viable again (and no reason why you couldn't model them as such!)

The other idea for Tzeentch could be you could buy wizard levels for your characters at 50pts a level, brings back the idea of 6th ed and makes the mark have a different role. This also means you can steal have cheap sorcerers if you don't fancy spending all those points on a single model.

+1 to cast and spell is certainly possible, I was wondering if that may be two much, even elves only add 1 to one or the other.

That idea could be a gift?


@ DukeRustfield - While I appreciate that it says in the first paragraph this more a collection of ideas, you pretty much said you read the marks and couldn't be bothered to read the rest. If you had read the first paragraph then you would of had the answer to you question rather than repeatedly asking me the question.

Your post just came across as "Why the hell you bothering, I think the book roxz, your ideas are brokenz"

I am fully aware WoC has the best core troops in the game, I have been collecting the army for about 19 years.



@Bastion of Mediocrity - Hey thanks I glad you like, I think Tzeentch it needs to be either a God of change reflected or the god of magic, I can never really decided which is the best option (perhaps both?) I also hate the current mark, when the released the book in 7th ed I was like "WTF is this about", something else I would like to do is add in the rules for Akehold Hellbrass (if you know who he is ), always interested in ideas people have!

itsonlyme wrote:@ DukeRustfield - While I appreciate that it says in the first paragraph this more a collection of ideas, you pretty much said you read the marks and couldn't be bothered to read the rest. If you had read the first paragraph then you would of had the answer to you question rather than repeatedly asking me the question.

Your post just came across as "Why the hell you bothering, I think the book roxz, your ideas are brokenz"

I meant my post to come across as, "Why the hell are you posting this in Proposed Rules if you're just trying to write broken fluff that has no impact on people trying to play the game?"

Well thanks for your constructive posts, its great to see open minded people like yourself giving us the full range of your wisdom and knowledge.

I really don't see why you continue to post in thread, might want to read Bastion of Mediocrity posts so you can get a rough idea of what a constructive post looks like.

I do like what you've done with Marks of Tzeentch... but thats pretty much where it ends.

Don't really see how this would make WoC that much more 'fluff based' than what their current book is...

itsonlyme wrote:Well thanks for your constructive posts, its great to see open minded people like yourself giving us the full range of your wisdom and knowledge.

It's in the proposed rules section. I told you it's not competitive for gaming. It's not. People here have backed-up those claims.

alex87 wrote:I do like what you've done with Marks of Tzeentch... but thats pretty much where it ends.

Don't really see how this would make WoC that much more 'fluff based' than what their current book is...

Sorry which mark of tzeentch did you mean, I posted two versions, as for being more fluff based it is as I said in the OP still very much a work in progress

*edit*

removed post aimed a Duke, its a pointless circle

MoS costs 10 pts in the real world.

Updated the first post with suggested changes, I am also trying to reduce the magic item count to some what more like in the newer books.

Some of your concerns are valid: MoS and MoN are mostly useless.
Past that i must agree that Duke, despite his abrasive and unhelpful his tone, has a good point: our army is competative now, and if your across the board improvements happened, they would easily go to OP. Also your rules cater distinctly to making chosen stars better, or worse makes warriors into equivalents... which everyone hates.
As another longtime player, few if any of your changes harken back to the HoC book, and that seems like a copout to enact changes you want.
The knights are cool, wouldn't mind them being a rare selection. Past that it's too many conditionals, and would be hard for nonchaos players to remember/easily abused.
Personally I would be happy with all the marks being the same price: 30, MoS being stubborn and MoN being -1 to hit. I feel that all four would be powerful, roughly in proportion to each other, but not gamebreaking. Max leadership is 9 with a lord, and the MoN would be roughly the same as MoT, better in combat/ worse vs ranged.
So long story short, your ideas might seem more fluffy to you, but to an objective observer they are not more accurate, and they break many of the current game balances...

@ Kiwidru - How so? I have given no indication what would change with the giver of glory rule and have removed the item that allows you to add or subtract one from the roll. I have said that the table needs to be changed and you have the problem that once you hit the unit receiving 5 gifts it has to start taking Toughness tests. Your making a lot of assumptions, I personally hate the chosen star, I think its the most stuid thing in the book.

Interesting enough you don't think army wide stubborn would be at all broken? You could very easily charge lone characters into units on steeds of slaanesh with a 1+ rerollable armour save and hold massive units in place most of the game as long as you keep your BSB near by.

The current MoT is terrible and in no way reflects the fluff, the roll on the EotG table as comes from the idea of lost and damned. Also you annaolgy is slight flawed of MoN with -1 hit and Tzeentch, MoT would still be better at range because so many armies now pack that do not use BS which actually makes the MoN you suggested pointless.

I imagine that most people would moan that nearly everything in games bar characters hits them on a 5+ as well (hence why I changed MoS from half WS).

The other flaw is you have 3 marks basically doing the same thing and creating solid anvils in different ways, slaanesh with stubborn, nurgle with being hard to hit and Tzeentch with its wardsaves.

As for the knights I had originally made chosen knights as a rare choice, sadly as great as this sounds on paper in practise it doesn't work, you just have to much competitive in the rare selection. I think Chosen knights are going to be something like 50-60pts, a unit of 3 simply isn't enough, you then having to try and fit in a hellcannon or two as well, but if we are talking about a new book then it will almost certainly have some new funky monster everyone will want to use.

Are you saying that what you suggested is more accurate? MoN certainly isn't, regen comes from the older ideas of T and wounds, both of these would be far to powerful.

Anyways, OK So basically I am trying to bring the Magic items and gifts to be more inline with what you expects from 8th ed books.



Magical Weapons

Axe of Khorne: Great weapon. The model gains the killing blow special rule, if the model already has the killing blow special rule it is replaced with the heroic Killing blow special rule.
Sword of Change: +1 Strength, every time a model takes a wound but is not slain they must take a toughness test, if the test is failed the enemy model is transformed in a chaos spawn
Chaos Daemon Sword: The wielder is +d3 Strength (roll at the start of each round of combat), in addition, the model increases it attacks by +1 for every enemy character slain in a challenge, roll at the start of every turn the wielder is not engaged on close combat, on a roll of a one the the take a wound with no armour save allowed.


Magical Armour

Spelleater shield: Shield. Any spell that targets the unit will miscast on a roll of a double, any spell that suffers a miscast is lost for the remainder of the battle on a roll of a 6+
Armour of Damnation: Chaos Armour. Any model attacking the wearer must reroll succesful to hit rolls, if the model can reroll to hit the two rules cancel each other out.
Chaos Runeshield: Shield. Any magical weapon in base to base contact with the wearer is losers all it special rules and it treated as a mundane weapon of the same type


Arcane Items

Skull of Katam: The bearer counts as one wizard level higher than normal but is subject to stupidity for the remainder of the game


Enchanted Items

Helm of Man eyes:The model gains the always strike first special rule and stupidity special rule


Magical Banners

Banner of the Gods: The model bearing the banner causes terror, in addition, any chaos unit within 6" of the banner also gains the devastating charge special rule
Rapturous Standard: Enemy models in base to base combat with the unit are at -1 WS, in addition a enemy unit may not make a stand and shoot charge reaction but may make all other reactions as normal


Chaos Gifts

Skulltaker: (MoK only)The hero now causes a killing blow on a 5+ instead of the normal 6+, this has no effect on heroic killing blow
Chosen of Khorne: (MoK only)If the model kills a enemy character or unit champion in a challenge he may immediately issue another. If the model with this reward flees from combat and fails to rally in his following turn his immediately replaced with a chaos Bloodbeast of Khorne

Stream of Corruption: (MoN only)Breathe weapon, models hit by stream of corruption must pass a strength test or suffer a single wound with a -2 save modifier
Slime Trail: (MoN Only)The model and any unit he joins is with is treated as having no flank or rear for the purpose of combat res

Aroma of Ecstasy: (MoS only)Enemy units/models in base to base contact with the character decrease their initiative value by 2
Allure of Slannesh: (MoS only)Enemy models wishing to attack the character must first pass a leadership test on their unmodified leadership, if they fail the attacks are wasted


Wind Changer: (MoT only)You may reroll the Winds of Magic dice, but the second result stands. 60pts
3rd Eye of Tzeentch: (MoT only)The sorcerer may choose any lore from the warhammer rulebook, the sorcerer has gains the loremaster special rule. 35pts

Diabolic Splendour: As Book
Conjoined Homunculus: Once per turn the sorcerer may choose to add a extra D6 to his casting roll, this extra can cause a Irresistable force. At the start of his following turn the character must test for stupidity.
Extra Arm: The character has an extra arm, this means he may wield a additional weapon for a extra +1 attack (unless wielding a magical weapon) or use a shield and a two handed weapon.
Immortal Furry: The model is subject to the rules of hatred

Look man, i think you are too invested in your ideas to put them on a public forum. Do whatever you want in your games, but if you ever want the ideas to evolve into something that most your opponents would play against you need to consider their opinions.
That being said, this'll be the last post I put on this thread.
If you are going to change the entire army just make a new one and call it a DIY army list...
Khorn wants death and doesn't care who's, so in game it is the extra killyness and the exploitablity of frenzy... That fits perfect, dispite your objections.
Tz manipulates (see also: changes) the future in order to protect his followers: hence giving them a ward save instead of generating power dice... If anything it's more in line with what you think should be fluffy, even if you don't like the current rules.
Slaa is all about pleasure from pain, so yes I think stubborn is fine when you take the other posibilities (more Killy, more surviveable, harder to hit). Take it into consideration that only lords are ld 9, and you still have a good chance to fail break checks.
Nurgle would be -1 to hit I'm combat and at range, so yes as you shortsidedly argued it wouldn't affect things that didn't use to hit tables. So as I origionally pointed out: it would be worse than Tz at range, and better in combat.

Unless you are gonna further delve into your crusade and actually listen to the ways this would be exploited you will never find a way to reconcile your sense of fluff and the communities sense of balance.
Good Luck.

Thing is I asked you to explain how the MoT would be exploited, I haven't posted a EotG table and I am fully aware of the issues with the current system. I haven't included any item in the list of items that allows you to manipulate it such as favor, so hence my question, I simply haven't posted enough information on it to even draw that kind of conclusion.

I have actually changed MoK back to frenzy?? I did that before I went to bed last night.

Yes Tzeentch manipulates, he doesn't for his followers beneift, he does it for his own, they are but pieces on a chess board that he will happily discard if it furthers his plans. A reliable 3+ wardsave simple does not reflect the fickle nature of Tzeentch, he is also said to give his champions all kinds of mutations, you even have a story about a marauder chieftain in one of the armybooks with a bunch of eyes coming out from his head. If you go back told the older fluff all champions used to roll on a mutations table, Tzeentch however rolled more, this was his marks rule.

The mark of Tzeentch has had so many rules over years, anti magic, rerolls, powerdice and warriors mages and now the current incarnation. The fact of the matter is with the current mark Tzeentch is without a doubt the best for characters which is very counter productive.

Regardless As I was trying to point out to you, you haven't created very good synergy within the marks, as I said Tzeentch, nurgle and slaanesh all do similar things with a twist.

Slaanesh is stubborn and a great anvil unit.
Tzeentch is hard to kill, reducing combat res and thus making a good anvil (HW+SH warriors are one of the best anvils in the game currently).
Nurgle is harder to hit which again reduces combat res and makes break, what purpose does this solve?

I realized this when I originally did MoS as Soporific Musk, I knew it had to change for that reason alone, let alone the balance issues. I mean yes they are slightly different but they are going to still perform the same role in your army in different ways, frankly on big units Tzeentch is still the best because they can have the added protection from warmachines while with chaos armour, shields and high T value most BS weapons can be shrugged off anyways. Even handguns do minimal damage at long range with on a 50% chance of wounding and 33% chance of negating it.

If you go by the Fluff in the current book it actually says in the Tzeentch section that Tzeentch followers are not as resistant as nurgle followers.

I

Hows that then, better?

its not the rules your posting dude ... its the tone of your responses. Yes, there have been people on here that clearly reacted poorly ... then again there were a few that seemed to be giving honest feedback. (which is why this forum exists)

Its hard to take your ideas into account and give feedback if the majority of the post seems like whenever you reply you do so with a stance of "my idea is good, so i dont care what you think"

I think the majority of my posts have been towards a single person who didn't even read the first post properly. I stand by what i said to Kiwidru, he doesn't have enough information posted to say something is going to be overpowered or essentially make MoT warriors core chosen.

Your right, some have given some good feedback and I have made changes according to what they said, my stance hasn't been my idea is good so I wont change it, hence why I removed KB from units with KB and changed the shaggoth. maybe I haven't acted on every single thing posted but should you take every single idea posted? I personally don't like Kiwidru's idea's, its a big world and we all have our own ideas of what would be cool and balanced. I think MoT is the most broken mark of current ones because it isn't designed for 8th ed, 3+ wardsave is silly and it wasn't even intended to do that, he thinks it fine.