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So, I picked up a Knights army when they were re-released earlier this year and a friend of mine decided to extend his already extensive CSM army with a pure daemon list.

After a couple of games I'm just confused. The GK are supposed to be the ultimate weapon in fighting daemons, yet most of their special abilities do nothing or very little against an actual daemon force. The general consensus seems to be that GK vs. Daemons is an auto win, but I just don't see it. I'm starting to think I'm overlooking something essential.

Force weapons: All daemons have inv. save and eternal warrior.
The Aegis: Daemonic abilities aren't psychic attacks.
Preferred enemy: You don't want to get into CC with daemons. Or is the reroll really that effective?
Daemonbane: An LD test for wounded models. Most daemons seem to have rather high LD.
Psy grenades: Again, you really want to shoot them before they arrive.
Warp quake: Only effective if you go first, and then only partially.

Don't get me wrong. Most of the GK specials are good, but they don't seem to be particularly effective against their chosen foe. I basically have no problem with this, but I don't understand why the GK are considered auto win.

Please correct me if I'm missing something, or if I'm overlooking the effectiveness of anything.

Thanks.

Aside from the usual daemon deployment flaw of possibly being out in the open, lack of long range shooting, always allowing for rerolls, always having a 1 I, yes they have invuln but its a +5(not that good), truesilver armor, gk have anti ds out the wahzoo, etc there is nothing. Why wouldnt I want cc? I go first with a minimum of 10 attacks that reroll. A Paladin with a nfw sword has 2 wounds and has a better invuln with a 4 to your bloodletters 5.

Why wouldn't GK want to get into CC with daemons. That is where they shine, at range they are overly expensive space marines, in assault they are much more powerful.

yes there are a lot of things they have which really should have been in a witchhunters army, but they still have plenty of stuff against daemons; like preferred enemy, warp quake, making them go at I1, bypassing eternal warrior (even if it is a small chance, in the same way that failing a psychic power is a small chance) having buffed strength against daemons, lowering toughness and having plenty of attacks. Plus can still shoot them with a lot of shots (a big daemon weakness) before going into combat.

Not to mention this is against an army that is always playing at half strength. If daemons could have all their army on the board yes the match-up might be closer (particularly with tzeentch, or blessing of the blood god khorne) but as it is they get killed.

GKs do both shooting and CC against daemons. Shoot them with your stormbolters(which a 5+ invuln isn't going to do much against) and then assault them. not many will survive.

The special abilities arn't all that amazing its true, but the generic wargear is good enough.

I believe the biggest issue Daemons face is Warpquake.

Their deployment is their worst enemy period. Vs gk its a combo of everything from rerolls to goin last in combat. I mean a cc army that goes last no matter what? In a doubles toureny if you mixed daemons with something that can shoot theyd be good vs gk.

This is primarily a balance thing really, its not fun for all involved if GK were truely an auto win against Daemons. They certainly have plenty of advantages, but Daemons actually can kill off most Grey Knights (aside from Paladins) if they can hit combat since they still die like any Marine.

not to mention that GKs still need to be competitive against non-daemon armies.

Do not get into CC with large groups of Daemons. You are correct in that their force weapons do not really help them much.

The thing with Daemons is your storm bolters lets you kite and shoot them while Warpquake protects you from the Daemon DS'ing too close which enables...you to shoot them longer with your Stormbolters!

Grey Knights is the worst match up for Daemons. There's too many anti-daemon rule in GK codex.

-Daemonbane make it possible for Nemisis Force Weapons to instant kill Daemons with multiple wounds.
-Warpquake in a large Interceptor and foot list with combat squad and scout (Grand Master) can cover almost the entire board.
-Grey Knights excel at shooting, which is the bane of Daemons.
-Banishers forces Daemons to re-roll successful saves, which counters Fate Weaver lists.
-Daemons have a tough time against Nemesis Warding Stave.
-Dread Knights have Dark Excommunication, making them OP against Daemons.
-Psyk-out Grenade reduces Daemons' initiative to 1.

There has never been a codex that's been so prejudice and hateful towards another codex. At least codex Daemon Hunters was more balance with Daemonic Infestation.

Interesting you say gk excel at shooting. It's been the opinion by many theyre terrible at shooting. Some Ig players claimed abyssmal..

SabrX wrote:Grey Knights is the worst match up for Daemons. There's too many anti-daemon rule in GK codex.

-Daemonbane make it possible for Nemisis Force Weapons to instant kill Daemons with multiple wounds.
-Warpquake in a large Interceptor and foot list with combat squad and scout (Grand Master) can cover almost the entire board.
-Grey Knights excel at shooting, which is the bane of Daemons.
-Banishers forces Daemons to re-roll successful saves, which counters Fate Weaver lists.
-Daemons have a tough time against Nemesis Warding Stave.
-Dread Knights have Dark Excommunication, making them OP against Daemons.
-Psyk-out Grenade reduces Daemons' initiative to 1.

There has never been a codex that's been so prejudice and hateful towards another codex. At least codex Daemon Hunters was more balance with Daemonic Infestation.

<rant>
Ok, for me, it bugs me that the one weapon that puts the GK aside everyone else is the one weapon that is actually LESS effective against daemons than any other list due to all models having eternal warrior. Nemesis force weapons are supposed to be the final say in combating daemons, but at that task they are no more effective than most other weapons.
</rant>

It seems that there's actually a cumulative effect then, lots of small favors that really pays of in the long run.

Daemonbane: Still requires a multiple wound model to fail an LD test. Nothing to rely on.
Warp quake: Sure, if you tailor towards daemons it's good but normally you don't have that many of those units.
Banishers: Haven't seen this. It's one of the non-silver guys? Haven't gotten that far into the codex yet. ;-)
Warding stave: Why is this harder on deamons that anything else? Did I miss something?
Dread Knights: Good point. Don't have any so haven't used them.
Psyk-out: Sure. But in most cases you already have higher or equal Initiative. And it only works on the charge?

Don't get me wrong. I don't think any army should play itself against any other army and certainly you can tailor a GK list to be very nasty against a daemon list, but most of the stuff they have are no (or very little) more effective against daemons than any other army.

Just wondering if there's anything I've missed because the rules seem to match badly with the fluff. In all honesty it would probably have been rather boring if the GK were as good at killing daemons as they are in the fluff.

My point is that for a daemon hunting army, it doesn't seem that they are better at hunting daemons than fighting any other foe. Yes, there are many anti-daemon powers in the book, but IMHO most are pretty novel and doesn't really affect gameplay.

Thanks for your time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Draigo wrote:Interesting you say gk excel at shooting. It's been the opinion by many theyre terrible at shooting. Some Ig players claimed abyssmal..

As a long time IG player I can assure you that the STR 5, BS 4 combo is Emperor-sent. I no longer have to pour out shots to be effective. GK are much more effective. I think the biggest difference is in the STR. Even at 4 it's a huge improvement over lasguns. Guards OTOH makes up for it in numbers.

berglin wrote:
<rant>
Ok, for me, it bugs me that the one weapon that puts the GK aside everyone else is the one weapon that is actually LESS effective against daemons than any other list due to all models having eternal warrior. Nemesis force weapons are supposed to be the final say in combating daemons, but at that task they are no more effective than most other weapons.
</rant>

It seems that there's actually a cumulative effect then, lots of small favors that really pays of in the long run.

Yes it is true you have to rely on a failed Ld test, but the fact they can do anything against an army of eternal warrior is the bad thing, it doesn't have to be a big chance. Daemons don't have huge armies and a lot of it will be filled with multiple wound creatures.

But is is also the cumulative effect of the stuff they can do against daemons (warpquake is not a tailored list, all you need is a grandmaster, and there are plenty of things that deepstrike) AND the fact that they can kill of the big monsters in one hit; they don't rely on it, but it is a huge bonus.

Draigo wrote:Interesting you say gk excel at shooting. It's been the opinion by many theyre terrible at shooting. Some Ig players claimed abyssmal..

I've seen GK tear IG lists apart. GK can field ridiculous amounts of TL-Str8 shooting, Psycannons, and access to Melta through henchmen.

Check out jy2's battle reports if you want a good idea of what GK shooting is capable of.

berglin wrote:Daemonbane: Still requires a multiple wound model to fail an LD test. Nothing to rely on.

As lord_bobbington already mentioned, the fact that the rule exist makes it possible for a multiple wound Daemon to be slain out right. Never underestimate the chance of failed leaderships.

Warp quake: Sure, if you tailor towards daemons it's good but normally you don't have that many of those units.

Even a non-tailor list could have plenty of infantry to cover most of the board with warp quake.

Warding stave: Why is this harder on deamons that anything else? Did I miss something?

Nemesis Warding Stave allows the model to have a 2++ in close combat. Now ask yourself, what do Daemons excel at? What's there most effective method of killing models?

Banishers: Haven't seen this. It's one of the non-silver guys? Haven't gotten that far into the codex yet. ;-)

I already mentioned what Banishers do. They force re-roll invulnerable saves against Daemons. Daemons in general don't have good invulnerable or armor saves. I remember a friend of mine playing Apoc with 4 Forge World greater Daemon Lords and the one model that costed him the game was the Banishers.

You should also read the codex more if you want to make sound argument.

Psyk-out: Sure. But in most cases you already have higher or equal Initiative. And it only works on the charge?

False. In most cases Daemons have the higher or equal initiative. After all, their forte is close combat. Furthermore, it's much easier to charge Daemons when you take into account vehicles.

My point is that for a daemon hunting army, it doesn't seem that they are better at hunting daemons than fighting any other foe. Yes, there are many anti-daemon powers in the book, but IMHO most are pretty novel and doesn't really affect gameplay.

The mere fact that GK have warp quakem excels at shooting, and can handle Daemons in assault is proof enough that they are better prepared against Daemons than any other 40k army.

Good lord I was being so sarcastic about shooting it wasnt even funny. My name, signature etc kinda says I know a little about their shoostin vs folks. Its always fun to shred de, ig, tau etc at their own game.

Draigo wrote:Good lord I was being so sarcastic about shooting it wasnt even funny. My name, signature etc kinda says I know a little about their shoostin vs folks. Its always fun to shred de, ig, tau etc at their own game.

For future reference: your name and signature don't tell people as much as your post content. Misspelled non sequiturs from the grammatically challenged will be taken at face value on the Internet.

whigwam wrote:

Draigo wrote:Good lord I was being so sarcastic about shooting it wasnt even funny. My name, signature etc kinda says I know a little about their shoostin vs folks. Its always fun to shred de, ig, tau etc at their own game.

For future reference: your name and signature don't tell people as much as your post content. Misspelled non sequiturs from the grammatically challenged will be taken at face value on the Internet.

Just like your smug attitude and general attitude says volumes.

Now that's sarcasm! See how a little extra effort can help convey the true meaning of your words?

Draigo wrote:thanx

No!!! And you were so close!

whigwam wrote:Now that's sarcasm! See how a little extra effort can help convey the true meaning of your words?

Draigo wrote:thanx

No!!! And you were so close!

Eh you still have a long way to go if that is supposed to cause a reaction. lol

To be fair, it made a bit more sense before your edit... Anyway, what kind of reaction do you think I'm looking for?

My point is simply this: your earlier post was hardly coherent. No one took it as sarcasm and you shouldn't have expected them to. Put a little more effort into your posts and that probably won't happen.

I dont think youd make a rude statement for no reason but I could be wrong it might just be your winning personality.

As a daemon player on the other side of this, here's why I find Grey Knights ridiculous to play against.

1) I have no option to change my deployment, to start on the table, or to otherwise adjust to my opponent's tactics. Grey Knights have access to several units that severely punish our forced deep strikes.

The daemon codex is 75% close-combat units (slaanesh, nurgle and khorne daemons have little to no ranged fire). This means that you have to try and land somewhat close to your opponent, or you're pretty much ignorable. The ideal deep strike for a daemon army allows you to get into assault in a turn or two.

Grey Knights have access to three units that prevent you from getting that close without significant loss. Coteaz backed up with some sort of firepower will blast your units below combat effectiveness on the drop, while strike and interceptor squads prevent them from landing at all. And, while it is true that not all grey knights will have these units, they're not exactly bad units and are common enough. Maybe one strike squad won't stop you from landing at all, but it will create the bubble to protect all the rest of the GK army, while keeping the daemons far enough away that the Grey Knights get multiple turns of shooting before the daemons get there. In addition, Coteaz is fairly common in competitive builds, as he opens up cheap squads of warriors as scoring units.

The Daemon player has NO recourse against these units. I cannot choose to walk on the table. I cannot choose to start on the table. My choice is to start far enough away that a bad scatter is still outside of the 12" bubble... making me largely ineffective overall, or to hope not to scatter.

So you say it only works if the GK go first? If the daemon player gets the first turn, the GK player puts his guys, who are only marginally less effective on the move, in reserve, waits to see where you land, and defeats you in detail. This is actually fairly common among anyone playing against daemons, but many other armies lose shooting phases as they move on, GK move on and fire at near full effectiveness.

2) So, assuming I make it to the table, I'm still 75% close combat. Grey Knight force weapons are more effective against me than any other armies weapons - that chance of failing my Ld test is more than anyone else has against me. If they charge me, I swing last, period. Their assault weaponry allows them to back-up and fire consistently, until I get close enough that they can spring forward and get the charge. They lose little effectiveness by moving away from my assault units, unlike most armies.

3) Dreadknights. I have one, maybe two units (blood thirsters, maybe other greater daemons) that can fight a dreadknight, and these units are easy enough targets for GK massed fire. Dark Excommunication is ridiculous, on a T6 2+ model. You cannot bring these down with numbers, you need quality attacks, and they turn off your quality attacks. (For example, if I assault a dreadknight with a full 30 ork boyz (120 attacks, probably the most from a single unit), I end up, on average, hitting with 60, wounding with 10, and pushing 1, maybe 2 wounds through the armour. Daemons don't have 30-strong units to do this with. What's more, they're fearless, so they also lose double casualties turn-after-turn due to no-retreat.

4) What about Tzeentch? I've had more luck with tzeentch daemons than assault daemons, but even here, the differences in toughness, saves, BS, Weapon Strength play out.

As an example, 100 points, roughly, is 5 knights or 5 horrors. [b]If[b] the daemons land and get the first shots (not easy, as they need to be outside 12" to avoid warp quake, but inside 18" to be in-range), then they're expecting to land 1.41 kills. The return fire from the GK kills 1.6 horrors. On average, the grey knights, with no upgrades, will beat out the horrors w/ bolt of tzeentch. If the knights get the first shots, it's even more in their favour.


It's just a horrible matchup for the daemon player. I've won tournaments with my daemons, prior to this codex. I'm a competent daemon player. I have yet to win a game against the new GKs with them (to be fair, I only have played competent opponents who know how to use their advantages).

If anything, the GK codex really just highlights and magnifies the flaws in the Daemon codex, which wasn't too great before the GK codex came out.


Deep Stiking isn't the awsome thing GW seems to believe it is. the fact that daemons are FORCED to do it is just plain wrong. The fluff behind it is also shaky at best. It certaintly should be an ability, but not a mandatory activity.

Massed Stormbolter and Psycannon fire really isn't a new thing with the new codex, the DH codex did the stormbolter shuffle and psycannons ignored your Invuln save at the time too. The new codex really just added a Mech option to the mix and boosted the power of Psycannons slightly(in reality they mostly become more effective vs Vehicles. the extra strength is only slightly better from the older one)

Ok, I think RedBeard does an excellent summary. I haven't really looked at it from that angle. I think I just got stuck on how ineffective the nemesis weapons are against daemons vs. how effective they are against other lists.

You make an excellent and compelling argument for why GK have the upper hand on a daemon army.

It's a lot of smaller things that really tilts the board in their favor.

Thanks.

Grey Templar wrote:If anything, the GK codex really just highlights and magnifies the flaws in the Daemon codex, which wasn't too great before the GK codex came out.


Deep Stiking isn't the awsome thing GW seems to believe it is. the fact that daemons are FORCED to do it is just plain wrong. The fluff behind it is also shaky at best. It certaintly should be an ability, but not a mandatory activity.

They don't magnify the flaws in Daemon codex. They exploit them Daemon's adherent weaknesses.

It's like showing up to a boxing match with brass knuckles hidden underneath.

So instead of bringing the daemons into the 5th edition we should leave gk in 4th?

No, that doesn't help either.

The biggest problem is the nature of the matchup within a game framework that uses points to balance games.

The simplest solution, of course, is not to give Grey Knights anything specifically good against daemons. Of course, that leads to the question, if they're supposed to be fighting daemons, why aren't they any better at it than anyone else? So, in order to be seen effective as an anti-daemon force, Grey Knights need to have some advantages in this matchup.

The issue then becomes, how do you make Grey Knights pay for those advantages?

If you make them pay points for their psyk-out grenades, preferred enemy, and other specific anti-daemon powers, then you end up with a force that gets a balanced game against daemons, and an underpowered game against everything else as they're paying points for things they're not using. (This is largely true for any unit that has preferred enemy, or another race-specific rule, but usually, these are singular units, not entire forces.)

If you give them those things for free, then you end up with Grey Knights having a competitive game against everyone else, and an overpowered game against the daemons.

Obviously, neither of these are ideal. The most basic tenet of the game is that if two players spend the same number of points, they'll get a fairly even game, and both of the above approaches void that in some way.

The old daemonhunter book acknowledged this, had a good game against daemons, but gave the daemons some boosts so that the matchup was still fun to play. This was doubly true when it was matched against the 3rd ed chaos book. The problem was, the old daemonhunter codex was severely out of date in 5th, and didn't have a 'good' game against anyone, plus, the new daemon codex didn't receive the boosts due to wording changes.

The new Grey Knight codex doesn't even pay lip service to the idea. If you break down what you're getting for your points, you quickly come to the realization than the preferred enemy, the psyk-out grenades, the warp quake, and so on, are all freebies.

I mean, your basic tactical marine is 16, for an identical profile. Add in a stormbolter (10 points on a marine sgt), a force weapon, and hammerhand, and you've got more than 4 extra points worth already. On top of that, you've still got The Aegis, Warp Quake, Preferred Enemy, Deep Strike, the extra grenades... You're clearly getting a bargain in the basic Grey Knight, and it's magnified against Daemons.

The end result is that, when these forces play, you have a very fluffy situation, where the Grey Knights triumph against the daemons, but a craptacular failure of a game where one side might as well not even play.

What's the solution? You can't adjust the points of daemons against GKs - that would create an impossible nightmare for tournaments and pick-up games. So, can you fix the problem with the addition of USRs or other options?

Perhaps, when facing Grey Knights, daemons could deploy as normal (Grey Knights are called in after the daemons have broken through, they're not there to ambush them as they break through). This might not help, as it results in the same situation that warp quake results in - daemons starting too far away and getting shot to bits before they get to assault - but it's a thought.

Or, maybe allow recycling of daemon troop units, much like last edition. This also has some drawbacks (if the GK player establishes board position to control where the daemons land and the ability to shoot them before they get into combat, it doesn't matter how many times you get to re-drop them).

Maybe give all daemons Preferred Enemy GKs might help too. According to the fluff, it's not like they're unfamiliar with this foe. Maybe give all the daemons a similar effect to the psyk-out grenades too - if they assault, the GKs go last. I don't think this is an elegant solution, but it's certainly more fair than what we're seeing now.

I don't think there is an easy fix. The problem exists because of the design constraints of making a force that has to play against all-comers, but is also designed to beat one specific army.

I think the daemon codex needs an overhaul anyway. Things like an improved ds of a sort like doa, option of coming on the tabe as per usual, cheaper pt values for some stuff etc. I played both sides and actually the older daemonhunter books is what got me playing both armies to begin with. Itd be nce if there were more upgrades etc. I mean me personally would like if fiends could get an icon since they are a faster durable unit then say daemonettes.

Maybe if Daemons got to have 1/2 their force on the board to start with and then have another 1/2 come in by deep strike.

or if Deep Strike was just an option that they could choose to use.

only a D6 scatter would be a good thing too. Maybe certain units could assault after deep striking?

I have heard mentioned before that their HQs help with reserves which sounded like a good idea too.