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But the point is that you *cannot* have all four strike squad firing because at least 2 if not 3 of the squad will be out of position attempting to do deny daemon DS, and if you want those PAGK to make any contribution with their SB you will have to move them out of their deny-DS position and thus giving the daemon more places to land. Furthermore, if you pull back while shooting your no longer denying the zone that squad has just vacated.

In addition you mentioned 4x5 PAGK = 40 SB shots on the move. Are you saying that they are all on foot? Isn't it generally accepted that an exposed 5-man T4 3+ saves PAGK will die to any shooting as easily as any marines?

Cladmir wrote:But the point is that you *cannot* have all four strike squad firing because at least 2 if not 3 of the squad will be out of position attempting to do deny daemon DS

Okay, before you post anymore, get a table and cut out some 24" diameter paper circles. Okay, that's not 100% accurate as to the space that one squad can block, because you can actually spread the squad out too. But it's close.

Now, realize that you don't have to cover the whole table, you just have to force the daemons back. So, overlap those circles some,and you'll find that the centers are more than close enough to move 6" and have 24" shots to the edges of the circles.

In addition you mentioned 4x5 PAGK = 40 SB shots on the move. Are you saying that they are all on foot? Isn't it generally accepted that an exposed 5-man T4 3+ saves PAGK will die to any shooting as easily as any marines?

And what shooting do you think the daemons are throwing down? By all means, stay in the transports on the first turn if you want, then dismount and shoot whatever landed. But unless the daemon player is heavily slanted towards tzeentch, they're not going to be shooting you all that much. (And, of course, if they are heavily tzeentch oriented, adjust your tactics accordingly. There is no one-size-fits-all, just the tools to do what you need.)

another thing to think about the Warp Quake zone is that if the areas you don't cover are near a table edge then the Daemons risk mishapping anyway because they might go off the edge.

Warp Quake also activates upon the deep striker's final location. They could scatter into the Warp Quake zone and take the mishap. Or they could start in the zone and scatter outside it.

Therefore the effective threat range of warp quake is actually 19"(average scatter of 7"+12" for Warp Quake)

That tatic is all well and good vs Kohrne, Nurgel etc but that would allow tzeentch stuffwhich is pretty popular can focus fire on the small squad. Not really siding either way but there is a flaw in spreading them out that much to deny board space. That sm advantage for apoc is worse since it is just a point on the board and can't be removed.

Redbeard wrote:

Cladmir wrote:But the point is that you *cannot* have all four strike squad firing because at least 2 if not 3 of the squad will be out of position attempting to do deny daemon DS

Okay, before you post anymore, get a table and cut out some 24" diameter paper circles. Okay, that's not 100% accurate as to the space that one squad can block, because you can actually spread the squad out too. But it's close.

Now, realize that you don't have to cover the whole table, you just have to force the daemons back. So, overlap those circles some,and you'll find that the centers are more than close enough to move 6" and have 24" shots to the edges of the circles.

Ok, so I admit that I did not get to a table and did what you suggestd, but I did the next best thing by drawing what you suggested on a piece of paper. Based on you suggestion I've drawn 4 circles that are overlapping such that the center of each circle is 20" apart (the center forming a square). So a daemon army DS outside this dead zone (say to the right) and lands just 25" from the closest PAGK.
- Max GK shots scenario: The daemons come down on the "side" of the square. Two units of GK on the right that were ~25" can move up 6" and shoot. The other two on the left that were 20" from the two on the right start at least 25"+20" = 45" from the daemons. Move 6", still out of range. --> 20 SB shots max
- Min GK shots scenario: The daemons come down on the "corner" of the square (say, top right). One unit of GK on the right that were ~25" can move up 6" and shoot. The other unit on the right and the top unit on the left will be at least 20"+25" = 45" from the daemons. Move 6", still out of range. --> 10 SB shots max

Draigo wrote:That tatic is all well and good vs Kohrne, Nurgel etc but that would allow tzeentch stuffwhich is pretty popular can focus fire on the small squad. Not really siding either way but there is a flaw in spreading them out that much to deny board space. That sm advantage for apoc is worse since it is just a point on the board and can't be removed.

Most Tzeentch shooting is only 18", thus if you're looking to shoot when you land, you're running a decent risk of scattering into a warp quake zone. And with a BS3, it's unlikely all of your single shot bolts will kill even a single 5-man squad.
I would think soul grinders would be more frightening, along with tzeentch heralds who can at least shoot both gaze & bolt with decent BS.

Having been on the recieving end of mass warp quaking, it's pretty much a no-win situation for the daemons, even a pure shooty list. A Fatefiend list or Tzeentch list can do some damage, but that 1st turn of being forced back, plus the ability to scatter within the quake range essentially gives the GK player 2 'free' turns of doing whatever they want. A khornate or nurgle list has 0 chance at all against 3-4+ warp quake capable squads unless they go first.
Another point that people seemed to have missed; warp quake knocks out our 'uber expensive Icons! Typically the first wave of daemons includes an icon or two to act as anchors for the re-inforcements, but the quake zone can shut them out without any way to defend against it. Hence, it also punishes daemons for buying icons. (on a more comical note, a few of the real WAAC's d-bags also argue that warp quake knocks out CSM 'marks' too since they're from icons !)

As a dedicated daemon player, my complaint is that warp quake is blaitently broken as feth at 12" range! When my mates & I play it as only a 6" range, it's a helluva lot better and still does exactly what it's honestly ment to! (ie: protect the knights from the super short-ranged, ultra killy stuff like breath of chaos, mass flamer/melta DoA's and such!)



Another annoying tactic that alot of the local GK players in my area are pulling is adding a single banisher to their deathcult/crusader henchmen squads. It gives them the ability to threaten dreads, and if you just so happen to draw against daemons? Well, you've just nerfed every Faveweaver build for less than 40pts/model.

You cant say 0 chance because there are even batreps here where daemons beat gk, just saying. That might be your bias. I played nurgle/csm in a doubles and beat both gk and sw twc, long fangs etc sooo eh I still like my daemons and will play them along with my gk. I have a wish list for daemons/csm so Ill see what they come out with in 6th. I dont have the issue with warp quake since Im also one of the only gk players and I do not use it.

Draigo wrote:You cant say 0 chance because there are even batreps here where daemons beat gk, just saying. That might be your bias. I played nurgle/csm in a doubles and beat both gk and sw twc, long fangs etc sooo eh I still like my daemons and will play them along with my gk. I have a wish list for daemons/csm so Ill see what they come out with in 6th. I dont have the issue with warp quake since Im also one of the only gk players and I do not use it.

I said pure/mono khorne or nurgle have 0 chance against a quake spaming list. Very little to no shooting at all, and they have to run across the table, all while the knights continue back stepping while firing on the move at the biggest threats. All you need to do is add in a couple units of faster stuff and things change. (and to be fair, hounds might be fast, but they also bounce off MEQ's and are simply tarpits - but very good ones against GK's though!)
Point is, GK's don't have to really try to be mean to daemons, they simply have all the answers gifted wraped and handed to them. Every other competitive army I've played against has to put some effort into screwing me over, and typically daemons are still 'in the fight' even against fast mech lists like DE.

And to be fair, you played your nurgle daemons alongside csm marines, so your partner completely removed your daemon's biggest weakness by bringing decent shooting to the table! (actually, they brought 'shooting' in general considering nurgle daemons are limited to only a couple of abilities on princes/heralds/greaters)

I envy you that you don't have to face the pain of warp quake.
My only local store that has 40k nights is plagued by 'grey marines' who change chapter to best suit the situation, or else things like 'red marines counting as' whatever.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Draigo wrote:You cant say 0 chance because there are even batreps here where daemons beat gk, just saying. That might be your bias. I played nurgle/csm in a doubles and beat both gk and sw twc, long fangs etc sooo eh I still like my daemons and will play them along with my gk. I have a wish list for daemons/csm so Ill see what they come out with in 6th. I dont have the issue with warp quake since Im also one of the only gk players and I do not use it.

I said pure/mono khorne or nurgle have 0 chance against a quake spaming list. Very little to no shooting at all, and they have to run across the table, all while the knights continue back stepping while firing on the move at the biggest threats. All you need to do is add in a couple units of faster stuff and things change. (and to be fair, hounds might be fast, but they also bounce off MEQ's and are simply tarpits - but very good ones against GK's though!)
Point is, GK's don't have to really try to be mean to daemons, they simply have all the answers gifted wraped and handed to them. Every other competitive army I've played against has to put some effort into screwing me over, and typically daemons are still 'in the fight' even against fast mech lists like DE.

And to be fair, you played your nurgle daemons alongside csm marines, so your partner completely removed your daemon's biggest weakness by bringing decent shooting to the table! (actually, they brought 'shooting' in general considering nurgle daemons are limited to only a couple of abilities on princes/heralds/greaters)

I envy you that you don't have to face the pain of warp quake.
My only local store that has 40k nights is plagued by 'grey marines' who change chapter to best suit the situation, or else things like 'red marines counting as' whatever.

Ummm... I have to say that it is definitely not zero since some of the bat reps I read on this site were khorne and burgle vs. GK and the GK got mauled pretty bad. Sure, the GK got some shooting I but whatever those giant red dogs with bloodletters on them are, they were having a field day crushing squads after squad ok GK. I'm fairly certain the daemon suffered heavy loss om shooting, but once things degenerated into CC it was all daemons. Before you ask "why didn't the GK just shoot that unit?", I'll say I'm sure they did, but there were lots of dangerous things to shoot at.

Again, if you want to post a bat rep that shown GK owning daemon with the warp quake trick I would love to see it! I keep hearing about it but I have not seen one yet.

Redbeard wrote:

Cladmir wrote:
Yeah, but in order to have that kind of coverage the GK will have to essentially spread put his 4 troop choices across the board? After the first wave of daemon DS, then what?

One of the things about GKs is that they fire surprisingly well on the move. If I've got 4 strike squads, I can block off where I want to set up my position, and deny anyone landing close enough to assault me except, as Centurian has mentioned, hounds, fiends and seekers. I can then pull my guys back while shooting. 4 strike squads is 40 bolter shots on the move, and that's if there are no upgrades, more than enough to hurt most lesser daemons. By moving back, I buy myself yet another turn of shooting, and can prevent the next round's drops from getting close again.

It's like making a shell that retracts some while fighting off whatever landed.

Yep. That's why I'm my daemon lists these days are built around fiends and seekers (I think a hound/seeker/flamer list could be brutal as well). Daemons simply must be able to move and assault over 12" in a single turn, or preferably over 18"/turn, if they're going to be your primary heavy hitters. Bloodcrushers are simply epic fail against Grey Knights.

Centurian99 wrote:
Yep. That's why I'm my daemon lists these days are built around fiends and seekers (I think a hound/seeker/flamer list could be brutal as well). Daemons simply must be able to move and assault over 12" in a single turn, or preferably over 18"/turn, if they're going to be your primary heavy hitters. Bloodcrushers are simply epic fail against Grey Knights.

I agree completely with this. I run 2 sets of Fiends and a squad of Seekers. I would very much like to add another Seeker squad as well to the mix as well. With the generally Mech environment, speed is critical to catchup to tanks and to skip the ~18" rapid fire Kill Zone (6" move + 12" RF).

All comers GK lists aren't really overly scary to Daemons. A lot of the anti daemon goodies cost points you won't designate to an all comers list. If the player is putting together a list specifically to face daemons then that's where the trouble starts. In most cases though those lists will really suffer against most other armies. In tournament or league scenarios where wins REALLY matter you probably won't see any pure anti-daemon lists.

The Grey Knight's codex is a flawed concept, as Daemon Hunters was before it. The Grey Knights should never have been more than a fluffy optional unit for imperial armies. It is just bad game design to have a faction that is specifically designed to kill another faction that has no advantages against it. The fact that the designers who wrote Daemon Hunters (and now Grey Knights) couldn't see this is a pretty obvious sign that they were of limited brainpower.

As a daemon player I have yet to play against any GK opponent that uses warp quake. Most of my opponents either run Terminators or purifiers. As Subbers has said, most general GK lists aren't focused on killing daemons.

I'm going to have to say that GK lists don't have to be focused on killing daemons to be a nightmare for them.
Torrent of fire is terrible for daemons especially at strength 5. Psyflemen provided longer range shooting than can quickly knock out your monstrous creatures. You're going to have a fair amount of vehicles to deal with as well once you do get close enough to assault.

You're going last in combat almost every time due to psych out grenades, if they brought an inquisitor or dreadknight they have dark excommunication available, but purifiers have cleansing flame, and they reroll to hit.

Once you add everything up it amounts to half of your force (of which you initially only get half) getting shot to pieces before they can reach combat and than having many of their assault benefits which cost such high prices neutralized.

I'm definitely not the best player, but daemons vs gk isn't en a fun match up to play.