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Hello fellow Dakka-ites. I was playing a game the other day and 2 questions came up.

1) Where is the partical whip on the monolith? Traditionally, I've played that it's at the crystal, but I don't think that's actually ever stated.

2) Quantum Shielding - What happens when your vehicle is in cover? If a shot penetrates your vehicle, but then you successfully save that penetration, is quantum shielding still removed? Cover saves state that the shot is "discarded". To me that means that none of its effects happen, but that's where the question comes into play.

I can't really promise I'm correct but I'll try to give my thoughts.

1) The location of the particle whip would be measured from the hull since the whip itself is not outlined (maybe in the weapons it is more specific?)
2) I'd imagine the armor is lost, but I'm not sure if that is RAI. You do take a penetrating hit, but it's saved...so is a wound that is saved still taken? I guess with that logic since you saved from the damage roll the hit was not taken.

The location of the particle whip would be measured from the hull since the whip itself is not outlined.

And what support do you have for measuring from the hull instead of the weapon?

Ghaz wrote:

The location of the particle whip would be measured from the hull since the whip itself is not outlined.

And what support do you have for measuring from the hull instead of the weapon?

None, just the thought that since the weapon is not outlined anywhere that 'this object is the particle whip' I'd imagine the fairest thing is to measure from the hull. I know in the Dawn of War game the particle whip is the crystal in the center and in my LGS that is where it is measured with. That is just my thought, could be and probably am wrong as I said. Is it not correct? If not could you please explain to us why it is not? As, always I try to play the game correctly.

If its anything like the old edition , you measure from the gauss gun thingys on the corners for measuring, but who knows?

Happyjew wrote:If its anything like the old edition , you measure from the gauss gun thingys on the corners for measuring, but who knows?

I played Necron 3rd a little bit and that is what I was always told. I'm really surprised they never outlined where the weapon is on the Monolith. Can any other model even take the weapon itself?

Oh, and my normal disclaimer, I'm very much a new gamer, I'd like to think I can grasp rules well but I don't claim to be right. Just try to do my best to help out my fellow gamers!

Current Necron codex has following description on the monolith entry:
"Most dramatic of its armaments is the particle whip, channeled through glowing focus crystal atop the vehicle."

So measure from the middle crystal.

That sounds more like fluff then actual rules, but what do I know?

It is fluff, but it's pretty much all there is to go by. Hopefully this gets thrown into the FAQ. Anyone else have an opinion about the Quantum Shield vs Cover Save?

That one could go either way, personally I go with pass the save, ignore the hit so you would keep it.

If you make the save, the penetration/glancing hit is negated. So QS stays on...

It's discarded, not negated, so I'm not sure how I'd go with this...

It's a similar discussion to FNP vs AnythingThatHappensOnAnUnsavedWound.

1) It's fair to assume that the Crystal described in the Monolith entry fires the Particle Whip.
2) You have still suffered a penetrating hit, so you lose the shielding. To be able to keep the shielding, its rules should have said unsaved penetrating hit, similar to wounds vs unsaved wounds.

The hit is discarded, aka rejected, as if never happened.

copper.talos wrote:The hit is discarded, aka rejected, as if never happened.

I agree with this.
The rules say the hit is discarded, not that the damage is discarded.

If it was the latter, then the vehicle would have suffered a hit, but not been damaged at all.

But the cover save discards the hit, so there was no damage because there was no hit.

So quantum shielding would still be intact. The hit never struck it.

copper.talos wrote:The hit is discarded, aka rejected, as if never happened.

So similar to an ignored wound?

No, similar to a saved wound. Big difference.

Think of it this way, you see a tank behind some ruins(cover), you fire a rocket at it, the shot is going to hit, but since the shot wasn't in the correct clear 1-cubic-meter-space that wouldn't hit anything but the tank, it hits part of the ruin instead, vaporizes it and and the tank is unharmed, but now aware of your presence, except that tank is a Triarch Stalker with a heat ray and your molecular bonds are about to go through a brief and VIOLENT divorce, good day.

copper.talos wrote:No, similar to a saved wound. Big difference.

And that's where we disagree. If it's saved, the pen still happened - you just don't apply the result.
If it's discarded (which might be close enough to ignored) then it's as if the penetrating hit never happened.

Well, if Arjack and his Boomerang Thunderhammer hits a vehicle that then makes its cover save, is it still stunned? I would be inclined to say no, because it opens up a whole host of issues, like ranged entropic weapons reducing armor on vehicles that successfully make their cover saves.

Phazael wrote:Well, if Arjack and his Boomerang Thunderhammer hits a vehicle that then makes its cover save, is it still stunned? I would be inclined to say no, because it opens up a whole host of issues, like ranged entropic weapons reducing armor on vehicles that successfully make their cover saves.

Well... they do. Since the ES guns just need to hit, and cover saves discard the pen/glance.

Thunder hammers trigger on vehicles when you roll on the damage table.

Quantum Shielding speficially states that "Until the vehicle suffers a penetrating hit..."

If I pass my cover save and no damage is done, I'm not really suffering, right? Shields up, yo. It's common sense... You "hit" me, but due to a bunch of debris, walls or obscuring foliage, you really didn't hit me or my shield that, by fluff's definition in the entry above the rules, "exists only at the moment of deflection - at all other times there is no indication of its presence."

katfude wrote:Quantum Shielding speficially states that "Until the vehicle suffers a penetrating hit..."

If I pass my cover save and no damage is done, I'm not really suffering, right? Shields up, yo. It's common sense... You "hit" me, but due to a bunch of debris, walls or obscuring foliage, you really didn't hit me or my shield that, by fluff's definition in the entry above the rules, "exists only at the moment of deflection - at all other times there is no indication of its presence."

Gotcha. Yeah, that wording works for me.

katfude wrote:Quantum Shielding speficially states that "Until the vehicle suffers a penetrating hit..."

If I pass my cover save and no damage is done, I'm not really suffering, right? Shields up, yo. It's common sense... You "hit" me, but due to a bunch of debris, walls or obscuring foliage, you really didn't hit me or my shield that, by fluff's definition in the entry above the rules, "exists only at the moment of deflection - at all other times there is no indication of its presence."

BRB pg. 62: "If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it.."


I very much wish to believe that a successful cover save = shields up, but I don't expect this will hold water in any competitive game unless a FAQ comes out to say otherwise.

boneblade wrote:BRB pg. 62: "If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it.."

If the save is passed, the hit is discarded.
Which means the vehicle never suffered a penetrating hit.

1. Old faq from 3rd Edition stated it was from the 1 of the 4 gauss flux arcs guns on the corner of the Mono. Even though the Dawn of War has it coming through the crystal, I think that was more for show, since it looked cooler and might confuse people with 2 different shooting types coming out of one gun. Also just because the weapon is powered from the crystal it doesn't mean that it is fired from it. Lets compare to a gun, the Magazine of the gun holds the rounds and is fired from the barrel of a gun.
Magazine>Round>Barrel
Crystal>Particle Whip>Gauss Flux Arcs

Until a FAQ comes out I would still use the 3rd ed. Faq since it had the same question.

2. Hit happens Roll to Wound. Roll for Cover. Would hits cover. Shield still on vehicle since it never suffered a wound.

Boneblade wrote:

katfude wrote:Quantum Shielding speficially states that "Until the vehicle suffers a penetrating hit..."

If I pass my cover save and no damage is done, I'm not really suffering, right? Shields up, yo. It's common sense... You "hit" me, but due to a bunch of debris, walls or obscuring foliage, you really didn't hit me or my shield that, by fluff's definition in the entry above the rules, "exists only at the moment of deflection - at all other times there is no indication of its presence."

BRB pg. 62: "If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it.."


I very much wish to believe that a successful cover save = shields up, but I don't expect this will hold water in any competitive game unless a FAQ comes out to say otherwise.

Suffer, page 2845, dictionary: . Experience or be subjected to (something bad or unpleasant). 2. Be affected by or subject to (an illness or ailment).

Just kidding! Based on the Brb I would say that the shield is down until we get an FAQ staying otherwise.

Yes you suffer a hit and you roll cover save to discard that hit. So if you roll successfully it never happened.

The wording of the BRB says otherwise in my mind. It says that if you suffer the hit, you may take a cover save. The shield says that if you suffer a hit, it goes away.

Cover is a roll taken after it is suffered, per the BRB. I feel it's a conflict of RAI (shield survives because cover negates it) versus pure, unadultered RAW (hit is suffered per BRB, and suffered hits remove shields).

Play it how you want, and if you have a conflict on the table, have a simple roll-off to solve the dispute. Trust me, I want the shield to stay on as a Necron player, but you can't argue with the wording in the books.