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Does the relentless rule "models count as stationary" satisfy the orbital bombardment "if a model did not move" rule?

I'm getting confused on this one.

Strike relay says 'may be used if the bearer did not move' (which is similar to rapid-fire and heavy weapon wording). The Lance Strike is Heavy 1, the other(s) Ordnance.

Relentless says 'can shoot with Rapid-fire and Heavy weapons'.

On that basis I'd say you could in fact move and use the Lance Strike if you were Relentless.

i think its wording says "a model cannot shot or move, but can assault" it dosent just say heavy so no you can move regardless of relentless.

Think about it for a moment -

Relentless allows a model that MOVED to count as if it did not.

Orbital Bombardment requires that the model not move at all.

See the difference?

Ninja-ed

Actually what it says is:

'[The OSR] is treated as a RANGED WEAPON that can be used provided the bearer did not move in the preceding movement phase'

Note that Rapid-fire says 'If the unit has not moved, models armed with rapid-fire weapons may fire one shot at targets over 12" away'

and Heavy says 'If a unit moves it cannot shoot heavy weapons'.

These three are all very similar.

Certainly the Ordnance barrages cannot be used even if Relentless but I think the Heavy 1 Lance Strike can.

Relentless says 'models can shoot with rapid-fire and HEAVY weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved'

Edit: personally I'd tend to regard the OSR's intent as being none of the weapons can be used unless the model was stationary, regardless of Relentless, but I don't think the interpretation that Lance Strike could be used is wrong.

No, you cannot fire on the move, as Relentless only lets you shoot RF and Heavy as if you were stationary

And the Lance Strike is Heavy1

Ah, mixing it up with the MoO which is Ordnance, from memory

Yes, you can use LS, but be prepared for odd looks if you do.

I agree, It's one of the several cases where RAW seems pretty certainly to run counter to RAI.

What are we discussing here?

I thought sudojoe's question was about "Orbital Bombardment". @ Artemo and Nos, you are discussing something called "Lance Strike".

I only know of Orbital Bombardment from the Marine dex, and was under the impression that it is listed as "Orbital Bombardment" on the summary page.

Is the MoO's ability called "Lance Strike"? Is there a similar ability in another codex?

Yes, in the GK codex you have an Orbital Strike Relay that is used like the Marine's Orbital Bombardment and the MoO's Artillery Bombardment - the difference being it has three sort of attacks, one of which is not Ordnance and so by RAW would likely allow move and fire exactly like any other Heavy weapon when coupled with Relentless.

Given sudjoe's site rank is GK related and the casual tendency of most people to refer to all three attacks (OSR, OB and AB) as 'orbital bombardment' I perhaps rashly thought he might be referring to them. Even if not, it's probably worth noting that the GK do have a non-Ordnance weapon of that sort that could potentially be used to move and fire.

Scott wrote:What are we discussing here?

I thought sudojoe's question was about "Orbital Bombardment". @ Artemo and Nos, you are discussing something called "Lance Strike".

I only know of Orbital Bombardment from the Marine dex, and was under the impression that it is listed as "Orbital Bombardment" on the summary page.

Is the MoO's ability called "Lance Strike"? Is there a similar ability in another codex?

Orbital Strike Relay in the GK codex allows for 3 different modes of orbital support fire. At least, I'm pretty sure that's what they're discussing.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Thanks for the clarification.

very interesting, I hadn't thought that there was a difference between them but I see the difference now for RAW. Thanks for pointing that out, Artemo.

well my whole idea was to have inquisitor karamozov shoot the big barrage at justicar Thawn with possibly joining the foot slogging backbone of the GK SS's but now I think he may have to just stand there and shoot the big barrage and just nuke with lances when moving.

The SM and GK Orbital Bombardment abilities both state that you can't move and fire them. However the Lance option of the GK OB is defined in its profile as Heavy, and Relentless allows a model to move and still fire a Heavy weapon. Looks to me like a Relentless GK with the OB rule can move and still fire the Lance option, but none of the other OBs will work if you're moving.

Mannahnin wrote:However the Lance option of the GK OB is defined in its profile as Heavy, and Relentless allows a model to move and still fire a Heavy weapon. Looks to me like a Relentless GK with the OB rule can move and still fire the Lance option, but none of the other OBs will work if you're moving.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. The way I see it the Lance Strike would have TWO rules that would prevent it from being fired on the move. While being Relentless takes care of the 'Heavy' profile, it does not change the specific restriction that says the Orbital Strike Relay can only be fired if the bearer did not move in the preceding Movement phase. Nothing links this restriction to the weapon's profile. It is an independent restriction.

I agree with Ghaz, the Orbital Strike as well as the OSR have additional restrictions that relentless does not adress, thus you can not move and fire them.

Is the word "Heavy" in the Lance profile then just meaningless and redundant verbiage?

It indicates it's not ordnance like the other two options which some people would try to claim if it did not have a full profile.

Couldn't they just leave out the word "Ordnance" from its profile?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Couldn't they just leave out the word "Ordnance" from its profile?

Mannahnin wrote:Couldn't they just leave out the word "Ordnance" from its profile?

And you would have people claiming it's a misprint and they just left the word 'Ordnance' out. After all, the other two options are ordnance, so why wouldn't they all be ordnance? Better to clearly spell out that it's a Heavy then try to imply it by leaving out what it's not.

I disagree with your first premise. You might have run into people making that claim, but it'd still be a dumb one.

The fact that they put "Heavy" there has no real bearing on whether or not it's Ordnance.

I think all ranged weapons are listed as Assault, Pistol, Rapid-fire, Heavy or Ordnance though. So I'm not sure just leaving Ordnance off would be consistent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But while I grant the codex says the OSR 'is treated as a ranged weapon that can be used provided the bearer did not move', Relentless gives specific permission for Heavy weapons to count as stationary.

I'm not sure why the OSR entry would override Relentless for the Lance Strike.

Mannahnin wrote:The fact that they put "Heavy" there has no real bearing on whether or not it's Ordnance.

It does. It proves that they provided a complete profile for the weapon. It has bearing because it proves that it is a Heavy weapon and not an Ordnance weapon.

The real question is what leads you to believe that the restriction on moving provided in the rules for the Orbital Strike Relay has anything to do with the profile being used? There's nothing to even hint that is the case.

ok i have read this one long enough, there are two sets of rules here in play, the profile that says heavy, relentless removes that, however the special rule then states that the model can fire if it has not moved, nothing relentless says it can remove two "cannot move" rules, in a tournament you can not move and fire OB at the same time.

For what it's worth, I agree with Ghaz here. Orbital Bombardment has a very specific wording stating that they can only be fired if the bearer did not move. It is a specific rule in regard to Orbital Bombardments and something that I don't believe Relentless can override.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Artemo wrote:
I'm not sure why the OSR entry would override Relentless for the Lance Strike.

Relentless is a general rule in regard to all Rapid-Fire and Heavy Weapons. Orbital Bombardment is very specific in how it may be or may not be fired. Specific > General.

Ghaz wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The fact that they put "Heavy" there has no real bearing on whether or not it's Ordnance.

It does. It proves that they provided a complete profile for the weapon. It has bearing because it proves that it is a Heavy weapon and not an Ordnance weapon.

The real question is what leads you to believe that the restriction on moving provided in the rules for the Orbital Strike Relay has anything to do with the profile being used? There's nothing to even hint that is the case.

I'm really just playing devil's advocate here. It occurred to me to wonder why they bother stating in the general special rules for the Relay that you can't move and shoot it, while still putting Ordnance and Heavy in the individual profiles. One could posit that the reason it's labeled as Heavy is to qualify it for Relentless to create an exception.

I do think the interpretation you guys have put forward, that it's to create a complete profile, seems reasonable. I also agree that the rules on (not) moving and firing it given in the text, and on the ability to assault after firing, are clear and distinct above and beyond the profile.

Or as I feel, its to make sure without a shadow of a doubt that its not ordnance.

to go behind the side of the argument that says you can move and shoot a OB, ordnance says that inf cant carry ordnance, so that would mean you could not fire the weapon with a HQ with this ability.

so that said you cannot move and fire a OB same turn.