New Grey Knights List - needing advice

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**Akaiyou**

So I finally got around to ordering thee GK stuff I am getting the following:

Draigo
2 boxes of GK
2 boxes of GK terminators

I wanted purifiers and paladins in the list, I have some ultramariness with tons of extra stuff that isn't hitting the tables often so I guess I can convert those to GK?

Librarian in terminator armor
4 dreadnoughts
Land Raider
6 rhinos (not razorbacks)

Anyone want to help me build up a solid compettitive list from all these components? I'm specially in need of tips on how to build the new stuff I ordered, which wargear choices etc... so I can just build them to be competent from the start and not need to rip arms off later or avoid the magnetizing hassle.

I'm looking for an army list anywhere in the vicinity of 1k - 2k pts whichever forms the most solid list

**Artemo**

I should start with the proviso that I think the best GK lists are:

Crowe/MSU Purifiers in Rhinos and/or Razorbacks/Dreadnoughts and/or Venerable Dreadnoughts

Draigo/Librarian/Foot Paladins/Dreadnoughts and/or Venerable Dreadnoughts (with maybe a Techmarine and Vindicare Assassin instead of a dreadnought or two)

Draigo/Librarian/Paladins/Stormravens (with Dreadnought/Venerable Dreadnought/Assassin/Techmarinesupport as above - this is my favourite sort of GK list and it can be very brutal but I think the Crowe list is possibly more competitive)

Coteaz Weakling Spam (of which there are a variety of builds.

that's not to say other lists aren't competitive, just that these strike me as being the best and I don't think with those models you can run any of them. i also don't especially like lists that mix power armoured GK in light transports and terminators (with or without transport). However that's what you have and I think you can get a decent build from what you have, though I don't think it will be optimal.

So... you can field 10 paladins or terminators and 20 power armoured marines with dreadnoughts/venerable dreadnoughts numbering up to 4 in total. You have more rhinos than you can use in the list, so that's fine. You bought Draigo, and he's excellent value, so we'll assume he's going to be your c-in-c.

Now one reason I don't like mixing power and terminator armour is that it means the enemy gets more use out of his crapper weapons (stuff that terminator armoured troops can laugh at but that tend to hurt power armoured troops enough to be annoying). The same holds true for the transports.

Let's say 2000 points as it maximised what can be fitted in.

HQ - Draigo - 275

We won't take a Librarian because although he's generally excellent, he's going to eat points that will be needed elsewhere.

leaves us 1725. Allows paladins as troops, and they're much better value than terminators once kitted out. Paladins can deep strike but I think you probably want Draigo and his unit on from the off so that will mean taking a land raider (which I don't think is the optimal vehicle for GK terminators - a stormraven is much better at the job most of the time but a redeemer or crusader is okay). Given we have no librarian, we'll take a 5 man squad of paladins in a Redeemer. The paladins will be kitted to maximise assault killing power and survivability with good anti-troop and vehicle shooting. They will often want to shoot before charging against tougher opponents and the psycannon are the best all round choice.

Troop - 5 paladins: psycannon/halberd, psycannon/hammer. stave, mc halberd, halberd - 340.

Heavy Support - Land Raider Redeemer: multi-melta - 255

That leaves us 1130 points.

Two Dreadnoughts to give support fire will fill up the heavy support slots.

Heavy Support - Dreadnought: TL autocannon, psybolts - 135

Heavy Support - Dreadnought: TL autocannon, psybolts - 135

Eats 270 points leaving 840 for power armoured troops and transports.

Interceptors will give you good mobility for late game objective grabbing/contesting, but they are quite fragile and reasonably expensive. A 5 man squad with a psycannon is 140 points.

Strike Squads are most effective as 10 man units with psybolts but that does reduce the number of units and low numbers of Rhinos can be an issue in a small army. Ten men with hammer, 2 psycannon and psybolts in a Rhino is 265 points. Suppose you run 2 of them at a total cost of 795? that would leave 320 points. 5 terminators (to use up your 5 spare models) would be 205 points if fielded with an incinerator, leaving 115 points, which is enough for a Techmarine with a warding stave (he can bolster a ruin to provide better cover for an objective sitting unit in Capture and Control, and/or for your dreadnoughts in any game).

so the army looks like this:

HQ - Draigo - 275
Elite - Techmarine: rad grenades, warding stave - 125
Troop - 5 Paladins: psycannon/halberd, psycannon/hammer. stave, mc halberd, halberd - 340.
Troop - 5 Terminators: incinerator/hammer, 4 halberds - 205
Troop - 10 man Strike squad: 2 psycannon, psybolts, hammer, Rhino - 265
Troop - 10 man Strike squad: 2 psycannon, psybolts, hammer, Rhino - 265
Heavy Support - Dreadnought: TL autocannon, psybolts - 135
Heavy Support - Dreadnought: TL autocannon, psybolts - 135
Heavy Support - Land Raider Redeemer: multi-melta - 255

2000 points on the nose.

In Annihilation you offer up 10 kill points but have lots of weapons that can trash enemy light armour and Draigo and paladins are fearsome in assault.

In capture and control, your techmarine, terminators and (Grand Strategy scoring?)dreadnoughts can sit on or near your objective (with at least the terminators hopefully benefitting from the improved cover savbe of a bolstered ruin) whilst Draigo leads the rest in a smoke-screened armoured charge towards the enemy objective.

In Seize Ground you have potentially 6 scoring units (more than enough) all of whih are pretty durable and reasonabky mobile - here you might want to run the Techmarine and Termminators in the Raider and deepstrike Draigo and the paladins).

You'd just need to buy or repaint a techmarine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note that hammer and halberds are the best choice on terminator-armed troops but halberds are poor value on strikes. Converting Dreadnoughts to TL Autocannon can be a bit of a pain but it's the best choice for this list (in a stormraven list a venerable with multi-melta and doomfist is actually pretty good for close support but not so much here). The warding stave may seem expensive but it can be a royal pain for your opponent. Having added them to my plaadin squads I wouldn' be without now - ideally i'd like one in the terminators too but you can't really squeeze it in without compromising too much elsewhere. Psybolts are well worth it on the Strike Squads - 16 S5 AP5 shots plus 4 or 8 S7 rending AP4 shots is nasty.

**Akaiyou**

The problem is that you are not following what I want and what I actually own

I dont have a techmarine in the inventory mentioned above
And I wanted purifiers and paladins

Also unless the box magically springs out extra models I don't see where you are getting these 10 man strike squads totaling 20 models out of 2 boxes of GK

I understand you are trying to be very helpful with the long post and everything, but upon reading through it i'm just puzzled as it seems you didn't actually read through mine your list doesnt help me out bro.

**Artemo**

Well I was trying to follow what you own (and I forgot you only get 5 models innthe power armour box, sorry.) and build a reasonably competitive list with some reasons for the choices. Getting one techmarine didn't seem like too big a deal.

If you want a Purifier/Paladin list using Draigo and not Crowe and with nothing that's not in the boxes, then do this as a core - it's pretty much the only option you have unless you wanted to run the Purifiers in one ten man squad which would be a bad idea in this particular case:

Draigo - 275
5 Paladins - 300 (psycannon/halberd, incinerator/halberd, hammer, halberd, sword)
5 Paladins - 300 ((psycannon/halberd, incinerator/halberd, hammer, halberd, sword)
5 Purifiers + Rhino, - 171 (psycannon, hammer, 3 halberds)
5 Purifiers + Rhino - 171 (psycannon, hammer, 2 halberds)

And fill the rest of the points with the models you have with the weapons they have as best you can.

Just bear in mind it won't be very competitive (not rubbish but by no means one of the better builds) and that if you could get two more psycannon for both the terminator and power armoured marines you'd end with a better force. Likewise if you can't or won't build your dreadnoughts as dual TL autocannon, without stormravens you'll find it harder to get best use out of them.

If you want to add a Librarian give him a warding stave and Might of Titan, The Shrouding, Sanctuary and Warp Rift at 205 points.

But bear in mind you can't get what you want (well kitted out units) with what you get in the boxes, and that a Purifier/Paladin mix actually works better with Crowe than Draigo but isn't, I think, ideal anyway.

**Akaiyou**

Ah these we go thats way better and yeah unfortunately I just ordered this stuff there's no room for a techmarine lol and this would be my 6th army i own so dont plan on buying any new models for GK after this intiial purchase for quite a loooooong time.

The only thing i could perhaps do in the future is purchase some psycannon bits or something to avoid the cost of a new box set.

Thanks for the advice there specially on the librarian i had no clue which abilities to give him to use him more effectively.

The question is should i field him together with draigo attached to 1 unit of paladins each? or both on same unit?

Also any advice on how to use Grand Strategy?

**Artemo**

If you run the Librarian then I would keep him in a separate unit from Draigo's most of the time (but close enough so they can both benefit from Shrouding if possible and certainly within 12" so both units benefit from Sanctuary.

Your problem is that either they're deep-striking (which I find is a very risky tactic for numerous reasons) or foot-slogging.

Of course you could get yourself anothe land raider and run the two as redeemers. that way draigo and the Librarian both have armoured transport for their units and you can keep them close together for The Shrouding (though that's of less benefit to Raiders than Ravens).

Mind you, that's adding 205 for the Librarian and another 510 for the Redeemers which brings you to 1217+715 = 1932.

keeping 2 raiders and 2 rhinos alive at 2000 points for long enough for them to get beyond halfway across the board will often be very tough, I think given the amount of Lance and melta that can potentially be thrown at the raiders.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for grand strategy, it really depends on the mission.

Making purifiers or dreadnoughts (if you field them) scoring is a decent option in the objective missions and I like Outflank sometimes in capture and Control if you've made sure there's an objective close (ie 12-15" from) to both short edges, but that relies on an all reserves strategy thet is chancy with your list, I think. Rerolling 1s to wound is a good fall back option but Counter-attack is great against armies who have a nasty assault unit (TH/SS terminators or Power-claw nobs for instance).

**Akaiyou**

Thanks for everything really appreciate all the help, think I got a good sense of how to start off this army now.

With the shrouding how does it affect vehicles?

3+ cover if obscured? and 6+ cover if not?

**Artemo**

Yes.

**sudojoe**

Akaiyou wrote:Ah these we go thats way better and yeah unfortunately I just ordered this stuff there's no room for a techmarine lol and this would be my 6th army i own so dont plan on buying any new models for GK after this intiial purchase for quite a loooooong time.

The only thing i could perhaps do in the future is purchase some psycannon bits or something to avoid the cost of a new box set.

Thanks for the advice there specially on the librarian i had no clue which abilities to give him to use him more effectively.

The question is should i field him together with draigo attached to 1 unit of paladins each? or both on same unit?

Also any advice on how to use Grand Strategy?

could always proxy in some men from other armies to act like techmarines and or another strike squad if in friendly games =)

If you are set on pallies and purifiers, it would be very difficult to get enough bodies to survive too much especially with reserve rolls being so unpredictable. As you essentially have enough men for 10 PA and 10 terminators in total, grand strategy would be most useful to make purifiers troops. I'd say run either just a 10man squad (only get to use 1 rhino unfortnately) but you could combat squad them into 5. Alternatively you can take 2 squads of 5 and 2 rhinos and just hope you roll well for affecting both units for objective games. On annhiliation, you could either scout your pallies forward or give them rerolls to hit and hide the overall small army in the corner. That would depend on the set up.

Based on your list, you would essentially have 1 death star unit *landraider + pallies + draigo* riding up. you can try to use psy communion to grab the liby + other terminators a bit earier and have them deep strike in or just foot slog it behind the land raider and keep shrouding up along with the rhinos filled with the purifiers. (6+ cover is kind of crappy but better than nothing though)

The dreadnaughts should do well with auto cannon arms but you'll have to build/buy the parts seperately. Pallies do well with halbers 1 hammer and psycannons
Purifiers usually have halberds, hammer x1, and 2 psycannons for 5 men. Alternate is halbers x3, hammer, psycannon. or halber x2, warding staff, hammer (maybe) and psycannon.

**Akaiyou**

should i give everything psybolt ammo?

**Artemo**

No. It's not really worth it on 5 man squads. It's almost always worth it on 10 man squads (Purifiersand Paladins being a possible exception as they can have 4 heavy weapons in a ten man squad and the cost of psybolts is marginal for 5/6 models)

**Reckoner**

I should start with the proviso that I think the best GK lists are:

Crowe/MSU Purifiers in Rhinos and/or Razorbacks/Dreadnoughts and/or Venerable Dreadnoughts

Draigo/Librarian/Foot Paladins/Dreadnoughts and/or Venerable Dreadnoughts (with maybe a Techmarine and Vindicare Assassin instead of a dreadnought or two)

Draigo/Librarian/Paladins/Stormravens (with Dreadnought/Venerable Dreadnought/Assassin/Techmarinesupport as above - this is my favourite sort of GK list and it can be very brutal but I think the Crowe list is possibly more competitive)

Coteaz Weakling Spam (of which there are a variety of builds.

that's not to say other lists aren't competitive, just that these strike me as being the best and I don't think with those models you can run any of them. i also don't especially like lists that mix power armoured GK in light transports and terminators (with or without transport). However that's what you have and I think you can get a decent build from what you have, though I don't think it will be optimal.

So... you can field 10 paladins or terminators and 20 power armoured marines with dreadnoughts/venerable dreadnoughts numbering up to 4 in total. You have more rhinos than you can use in the list, so that's fine. You bought Draigo, and he's excellent value, so we'll assume he's going to be your c-in-c.

Now one reason I don't like mixing power and terminator armour is that it means the enemy gets more use out of his crapper weapons (stuff that terminator armoured troops can laugh at but that tend to hurt power armoured troops enough to be annoying). The same holds true for the transports.

Let's say 2000 points as it maximised what can be fitted in.

HQ - Draigo - 275

We won't take a Librarian because although he's generally excellent, he's going to eat points that will be needed elsewhere.

leaves us 1725. Allows paladins as troops, and they're much better value than terminators once kitted out. Paladins can deep strike but I think you probably want Draigo and his unit on from the off so that will mean taking a land raider (which I don't think is the optimal vehicle for GK terminators - a stormraven is much better at the job most of the time but a redeemer or crusader is okay). Given we have no librarian, we'll take a 5 man squad of paladins in a Redeemer. The paladins will be kitted to maximise assault killing power and survivability with good anti-troop and vehicle shooting. They will often want to shoot before charging against tougher opponents and the psycannon are the best all round choice.

Troop - 5 paladins: psycannon/halberd, psycannon/hammer. stave, mc halberd, halberd - 340.

Heavy Support - Land Raider Redeemer: multi-melta - 255

That leaves us 1130 points.

Two Dreadnoughts to give support fire will fill up the heavy support slots.

Heavy Support - Dreadnought: TL autocannon, psybolts - 135

Heavy Support - Dreadnought: TL autocannon, psybolts - 135

Eats 270 points leaving 840 for power armoured troops and transports.

Interceptors will give you good mobility for late game objective grabbing/contesting, but they are quite fragile and reasonably expensive. A 5 man squad with a psycannon is 140 points.

Strike Squads are most effective as 10 man units with psybolts but that does reduce the number of units and low numbers of Rhinos can be an issue in a small army. Ten men with hammer, 2 psycannon and psybolts in a Rhino is 265 points. Suppose you run 2 of them at a total cost of 795? that would leave 320 points. 5 terminators (to use up your 5 spare models) would be 205 points if fielded with an incinerator, leaving 115 points, which is enough for a Techmarine with a warding stave (he can bolster a ruin to provide better cover for an objective sitting unit in Capture and Control, and/or for your dreadnoughts in any game).

so the army looks like this:

HQ - Draigo - 275
Elite - Techmarine: rad grenades, warding stave - 125
Troop - 5 Paladins: psycannon/halberd, psycannon/hammer. stave, mc halberd, halberd - 340.
Troop - 5 Terminators: incinerator/hammer, 4 halberds - 205
Troop - 10 man Strike squad: 2 psycannon, psybolts, hammer, Rhino - 265
Troop - 10 man Strike squad: 2 psycannon, psybolts, hammer, Rhino - 265
Heavy Support - Dreadnought: TL autocannon, psybolts - 135
Heavy Support - Dreadnought: TL autocannon, psybolts - 135
Heavy Support - Land Raider Redeemer: multi-melta - 255

2000 points on the nose.

In Annihilation you offer up 10 kill points but have lots of weapons that can trash enemy light armour and Draigo and paladins are fearsome in assault.

In capture and control, your techmarine, terminators and (Grand Strategy scoring?)dreadnoughts can sit on or near your objective (with at least the terminators hopefully benefitting from the improved cover savbe of a bolstered ruin) whilst Draigo leads the rest in a smoke-screened armoured charge towards the enemy objective.

In Seize Ground you have potentially 6 scoring units (more than enough) all of whih are pretty durable and reasonabky mobile - here you might want to run the Techmarine and Termminators in the Raider and deepstrike Draigo and the paladins).

You'd just need to buy or repaint a techmarine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note that hammer and halberds are the best choice on terminator-armed troops but halberds are poor value on strikes. Converting Dreadnoughts to TL Autocannon can be a bit of a pain but it's the best choice for this list (in a stormraven list a venerable with multi-melta and doomfist is actually pretty good for close support but not so much here). The warding stave may seem expensive but it can be a royal pain for your opponent. Having added them to my plaadin squads I wouldn' be without now - ideally i'd like one in the terminators too but you can't really squeeze it in without compromising too much elsewhere. Psybolts are well worth it on the Strike Squads - 16 S5 AP5 shots plus 4 or 8 S7 rending AP4 shots is nasty.

This should be in the Grey Knights Articles section, I think you should expand on it and submit it there because it is a great breakdown.

To Akaiyou, I understand you went ahead and bought a balanced force like most people do with Grey Knights (including myself) but what you probably should know after six armies is that balanced forces are typically non-competitive. In the future you would probably benefit a lot from posting what you are thinking of ordering first and then getting feedback on what you need to make it competitive. Like...you bought six Rhinos but you have only 2 GK Squads and 2 Terminator squads...doesn't really make sense to me unless you planned on getting more GK to have more Purifiers. Also, pretty much any time someone asks for a "solid competitive list", people are going to suggest units you should add to your force to make one. A couple GK units and a re-painted techmarine is nothing compared to what I've seen reccomended.

The problem is that you are not following what I want and what I actually own

I dont have a techmarine in the inventory mentioned above
And I wanted purifiers and paladins

Also unless the box magically springs out extra models I don't see where you are getting these 10 man strike squads totaling 20 models out of 2 boxes of GK

I understand you are trying to be very helpful with the long post and everything, but upon reading through it i'm just puzzled as it seems you didn't actually read through mine your list doesnt help me out bro.

There's no point in sassing someone who just spent a long time compiling a list and advice for you. He followed what you ordered pretty closely and that is a great list.
If you want to have Purifiers and Paladins/Draigo then you would want to be putting the Purifiers in the Rhinos and the Paladins in the Land Raider and then supporting them with the Psyriflemen dreads. This army would probably max out at 1000-1500 because of a lack of Purifiers as you can only get 2 Rhinos on the field.

**Akaiyou**

Can space marine terminators be easily converted to GK terminators??

I have some terminators that I could use if the terminator box sets bring enough extra wargear for weapons.

Are there any threads on this topic?

**Artemo**

You get extra hand if I recall and I think some spare storm bolters. You definitely get plenty of spare force weapons You'd need to remove the terminators' hands and replace the left one (power fist) with one of the GK fists and then stick a stormbolter to the arm. The other hand (stormbolter) you'd stick one of the force weapons (one-hand halberd or a sword) to. You might want to do something with tehn shoulder pads too. Again, as I recall, you get some spares of those. And you get seals and other stuff to GK-ify the rest of the armour. Not ideal perhaps but I think it could be done.

**Akaiyou**

What about the heads? don't GK termies have different heads to regular termies?

**Artemo**

Oh yes. You get spare heads too. Quite a few in fact And shoulder-shields too.

**sudojoe**

You can also just claim fluff as GK have been known to borrow other chapter's Terminator armor as well in their history

**Akaiyou**

Alrighty then looks i'll do a bit of converting then

@ Reckoner

#1 - I mentioned i had that other stuff from my other armies, i didnt buy 6 rhinos for 2 box sets of purifiers....

I ordered up draigo, 2 sets of GK, and 2 sets of GK terminators.

I also did take the time to make a thread on what to buy for a competitive list prior to this order and I took everyone's advice and decided on a purifier/paladin hybrid since i liked both ideas so much that i coudlnt just choose one. While i understand that i lose some effectiveness for mikxing them but the game is also about playing things we feel we would enjoy right?

#2 - I wasn't being rude to him I just coudlnt use his advice as i obviously dont have the extra stuff he mentioned thus making his post confusing for me to actually put into practice. His 2nd suggestions though were great and hit the mark 100% as far as what I needed to know, and thanks to him I made a note of exactly how to set up my guys when they arrive. Many thanks to him for all that

**Reckoner**

@ Reckoner

#1 - I mentioned i had that other stuff from my other armies, i didnt buy 6 rhinos for 2 box sets of purifiers....

I ordered up draigo, 2 sets of GK, and 2 sets of GK terminators.

I also did take the time to make a thread on what to buy for a competitive list prior to this order and I took everyone's advice and decided on a purifier/paladin hybrid since i liked both ideas so much that i coudlnt just choose one. While i understand that i lose some effectiveness for mikxing them but the game is also about playing things we feel we would enjoy right?

#2 - I wasn't being rude to him I just coudlnt use his advice as i obviously dont have the extra stuff he mentioned thus making his post confusing for me to actually put into practice. His 2nd suggestions though were great and hit the mark 100% as far as what I needed to know, and thanks to him I made a note of exactly how to set up my guys when they arrive. Many thanks to him for all that

Gotcha, sorry mate I guess I interpreted that wrong.

**Akaiyou**

No worries my next question would be for anyone still interested in lending a hand here to help me in deciding on how to convert the extra terminators into GK terminators.

Since i think this will broaden and strengthen my list I dont mind breaking down my ultramarine terminators (i have no TH/SS on them so they arent effective as ultras anyway)

So lets assume I have 10 - 15 terminator bodies extra. With no wargear equipped as i'd be removing the PF arms

Shoudl i leave the storm bolters on them?

And from the 2 boxes of GK terminators that i will def make paladins from which gear do I keep for the paladins and which ones do I pass onto the converted terminators?

from the advice ive heard it seems i should do the following

Paladins
- 2 psycannons
- 6 halberds
- 2 hammers
- 2 swords

Extra Terminators
- 2 incinerators
- 4 halberds
- 6 swords

??

I'm not sure what comes in the GK Terminator boxes so for those that do know...what do you think i should do to max out effectiveness with what's available?

I have 2 assault cannon terminators is there a way to convert those to psycannons? lol otherwise the arms would just simply be removed since i dont think GK Termies use assault cannons

**Artemo**

You get 1 incinerator and 1 psycannon in the terminator box. paladins can and should take 2 heavy weapons per squad and unless you can get some ebay psycannon then you're going to use both heavy weapons on your paladin squads.
Now you could make and run:
5 Paladins: psycannon/halberd, hammer, halberd, stave, sword - 315 points
5 Paladins: psycannon/halberd, hammer, halberd, stave, sword - 315 points
10 terminators: 2 incinerators, psybolts, 6 halberds, 4 swords - 430 points.
You only get two hammers in the box so the terminators would lack hammers (but you'd be using them in more a shooting/anti-infantry role anyway in this case and the Librarian, if within 6" or with the squad could cast Might were they to assault a vehicle.
You'd need to make sure the paladins with halbers used the versions wielded in two hands, freeing the six 'one-handed' versions for the converted terminators. you have enough terminator heads and shields in the box for the conversions. i'm not sure about the hands or stormbolters. the Halberds unfortunately are right-hand weapons so you can't keep the original stormbolters. But you do get 6 in a box I think so you'd have 6 spare for the terminators.

**Reckoner**

You can get the Psycannon bits (arms included) off ebay for a few dollars. I know you don't want to buy anything else but it's probably your easiest bet.

As far as converting another weapon to a psycannon, it's always worth a shot. This thread is about converting a psilencer into a psycannon
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/388639.page#3180495

**Akaiyou**

For the draigo list isn't it better to have 1 large 10 man unit of paladins instead of 2 units of 5?

In the original thread where i asked how to build the draigowing list everyone always listed a 10 man squad for draigo to join with.

I figured i would go 10 paladins, and 10 termies for troops or 10 paladins and 5/5 termies.

Or is 5/5 paladins with 10 termies the better choice?

And yeah im trying to avoid spending more money but i'll try and find some GK players with extra bits or something and trade with them for something else i own and dont use. However that's obviously not a definite so im sticking to what i can count on for now.

Thanks for the heads up on the halberds i'll make sure to make sure to put in the correct ones to avoid a 'mishap' when equipping these guys

**Draigo**

Depends which is better.. Most people who say 10 are walking their squad. The 5 man are putting them in storm ravens.

**Akaiyou**

Well in my case im working on getting a land raider for them, that's pretty much it no storm ravens.
So should I run 10 man paladin then?

**Artemo**

Depends if you're fielding any troops except paladins and, as Draigo says, whether the paladins will be walking or riding. If riding then they need to be in five man (maybe a six man for a Crusader) squads so they can be reserved in the vehicle if the need arises.

Can I ask what your new proposed list is?

**Akaiyou**

Here's what I got so far can't seem to find the points for the raider or for the psyrifleman dreads

HQ:
. . 1 Lord Kaldor Draigo, 275 pts
. . 1 Librarian, 205 pts (Might of Titan; Sanctuary; The Shrouding; Warp Rift)

Elite:
. . 1 Purifier Squad, 189 pts
. . . . 1 Knight of the Flame (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Halberd)
. . . . 2 Purifier (Psycannon)
. . . . 1 Purifier (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Daemonhammer)
. . . . 1 Purifier (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Halberd)
. . . . 1 Rhino
. . 1 Purifier Squad, 189 pts
. . . . 1 Knight of the Flame (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Halberd)
. . . . 2 Purifier (Psycannon)
. . . . 1 Purifier (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Daemonhammer)
. . . . 1 Purifier (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Halberd)
. . . . 1 Rhino

Troops:
. . 1 Paladin Squad, 650 pts (Psybolt Ammunition)
. . . . 1 Paladin (Master-craft Nemesis Weapon(s); Storm Bolter; MC Nemesis Force Halberd)
. . . . 1 Paladin (Master-craft Nemesis Weapon(s); Storm Bolter; MC Nemesis Daemonhammer)
. . . . 1 Paladin (Nemesis Force Sword; Storm Bolter)
. . . . 1 Paladin (Master-craft Ranged Weapon; MC Psycannon; Nemesis Force Halberd)
. . . . 1 Paladin (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Warding Stave)
. . . . 1 Paladin (Psycannon; Nemesis Force Halberd)
. . . . 2 Paladin (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Halberd)
. . . . 1 Paladin (Master-craft Nemesis Weapon(s); MC Nemesis Force Sword; Storm Bolter)
. . . . 1 Paladin (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Daemonhammer)
. . 1 Grey Knight Terminator Squad, 205 pts
. . . . 1 Terminator Justicar (Nemesis Force Sword; Storm Bolter)
. . . . 1 Terminator (Nemesis Force Sword; Incinerator)
. . . . 1 Terminator (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Halberd)
. . . . 1 Terminator (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Halberd)
. . . . 1 Terminator (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Halberd)
. . 1 Grey Knight Terminator Squad, 205 pts
. . . . 1 Terminator Justicar (Nemesis Force Sword; Storm Bolter)
. . . . 1 Terminator (Nemesis Force Sword; Incinerator)
. . . . 1 Terminator (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Halberd)
. . . . 1 Terminator (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Halberd)
. . . . 1 Terminator (Storm Bolter; Nemesis Force Halberd)

Total Roster Cost: 1918

How's this looking? Suggestions?

Also what do you guys think of possibly using the purifiers hammers on the terminators?? purifiers are better off with halberds no? Or would their hammer look odd on a termie?

**Artemo**

I think then at that point I'd basically run everything on foot and use ten man squads as the basis (few kill points in Annihilation, easily combat squadded if desired in Seize Ground). I'll assume that you can pick up a 2 extra psycannon, 2 hammers and 6 halberds on Ebay. If not, tweak accordingly:

Draigo - 275
Librarian: warding stave, Might of Titan, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, The Shrouding, Warp Rift - 210

10 paladins: psycannon/banner, psycannon/hammer, psycannon/halberd, psycannon/mc halberd, warding stave, halberd, 2 x mc halberd, hammer, sword - 690
10 terminators: incinerator/banner, incinerator/halberd, 2 hammers, stave, 6 halberds, psybolt ammo - 475
10 purifiers: 2 psycannon, 2 hammers, stave, 5 halberds - 305

1955

So give the Purifiers a Rhino to allow the option and you have 1995. Give the Librarian Dark Excommunication for those times you meet Avatars or nasty Khorne things and you have 2000. Alternatively don't take the Rhino and give Paladins and Purifiers psybolt ammo and offer a miserly 5KP...

Basic Tactics:
In Annihilation you offer 6 kill points (so basically most armies will have to table you to win which even mega-ID spamming armies will really struggle to do if you use cover wisely.
In Seize Ground if you place your objective(s) so that in a 3 objective game at least 2 are 12" from each other, in a 4 objective game so that 2 or 3 are within 12" of each other and in a five objective game so that 2-4 are so then your big squads can (again if cover is borne in mind) claim/contest two objectives easily and a third by breaking a character off. Or you can combat squad.
Capture and Control will be hardest as you'll have to split your army and you won't be mobile enough to regroup. I'd maybe consider deepstriking Draigo and the paladins near the enemy objective and holding yours with everything else).

**Akaiyou**

Thanks a lot man, and so the purifier hammers arent convertable to the termies?

Also i shoudln't make an apothecary for the paladins?? i was wondering about that

isn't feel no pain good to have on top of the 2+ save against shooty armies with bad AP?

**Artemo**

The apothecary is of some marginal utility for a ten man squad.

Consider getting shot at by poison 4+ Space Fairy spam.

Sure , the Apothecary halves the wound rates.

But the wound rate is very low anyway and you have allocation abuse to fall back on.

2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 fail armour save. So 18 shots to wound. You have 9 paladin models that can suffer such wounds before worrying about removing a model. So that's 162 shots to remove a single paladin (after that of course, the rest fall far more quickly - another 162 sees the squad wiped). An apothecary would double the number of shots needed to a scarcely concievable 322. But really there's just no way you're going to be taking that much splinter fire against your paladins - any cogniscant Space Fairy player will put his lances to work on your paladins and splinter your Purifiers and Terminators (who can't have FNP) to death.

Equally in assaults, it takes a ludicrous number of attacks that FNP can save to seriously hurt a paladin squad. Paladins die to ID fire, model auto-removed attacks and power weapons. Sometimes you'll lose one to normal attacks of course but at +75 points, an Apothecary has to save 3 wounds to break even on his points cost. That really won't happen very often. A friend of mine planned to run 2-3 5 man paladin squads and so built 3 apothecaries. He has never fielded them, to my knowledge, beyond his first game.