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Which of these do you guys think would be more competitive to play in a 1,000 pt tourney

1000 Pts - Codex: Orks Roster - Dakka

HQ:
. . 1 Big Mek, 90 pts (Bosspole; Kustom Force Field)

Elite:
. . 15 Lootas, 225 pts

Troops:
. . 19 Boyz, 170 pts (Shootas; Big Shoota x2)
. . . . 1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Slugga; Power Klaw)
. . 19 Boyz, 170 pts (Shootas; Big Shoota x2)
. . . . 1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Slugga; Power Klaw)
. . 19 Boyz, 170 pts (Shootas; Big Shoota x2)
. . . . 1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Slugga; Power Klaw)
. . 19 Boyz, 170 pts (Shootas; Big Shoota x2)
. . . . 1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Slugga; Power Klaw)

Total Roster Cost: 995


1000 Pts - Codex: Orks Roster - GorkaMorka

HQ:
. . 1 Big Mek, 110 pts ('Eavy Armour; Kustom Force Field; Burna)

Elite:
. . 5 Kommandos, 135 pts
. . . . 1 Boss Snikrot
. . 4 Kommandos, 90 pts
. . . . 1 Kommando Nob (Bosspole; Slugga; Power Klaw)
. . 4 Kommandos, 90 pts
. . . . 1 Kommando Nob (Bosspole; Slugga; Power Klaw)

Troops:
. . 9 Boyz, 145 pts (Shootas)
. . . . 1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Slugga; Power Klaw)
. . . . 1 Trukk (Grot Rigger; Red Paint Job)
. . 9 Boyz, 145 pts (Shootas)
. . . . 1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Slugga; Power Klaw)
. . . . 1 Trukk (Grot Rigger; Red Paint Job)
. . 9 Boyz, 145 pts (Shootas)
. . . . 1 Boyz Nob (Bosspole; Slugga; Power Klaw)
. . . . 1 Trukk (Grot Rigger; Red Paint Job)

Fast Attack:
. . 1 Deffkoptas, 70 pts (Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha x1; Buzzsaw x1)
. . 1 Deffkoptas, 70 pts (Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha x1; Buzzsaw x1)

Total Roster Cost: 1000



1000 Pts - Codex: Orks Roster - Kult of Speed

HQ:
. . 1 Warboss, 90 pts (Attack Squig; Slugga; Big Choppa; )
. . 1 Warboss, 90 pts (Attack Squig; Slugga; Big Choppa; )

Troops:
. . 1 Nobz, 315 pts (Cybork Body)
. . . . 1 Painboy
. . . . 1 Nobz (Slugga; Big Choppa)
. . . . 1 Nobz (Slugga; Power Klaw)
. . . . 1 Nobz (Bosspole; Slugga; Big Choppa)
. . . . 1 Nobz (Slugga; Power Klaw)
. . . . 1 Nobz (Waaagh! Banner; Slugga; Big Choppa)
. . . . 1 Trukk (Grot Rigger; Red Paint Job)
. . 1 Nobz, 315 pts (Cybork Body)
. . . . 1 Painboy
. . . . 1 Nobz (Slugga; Big Choppa)
. . . . 1 Nobz (Slugga; Power Klaw)
. . . . 1 Nobz (Bosspole; Slugga; Big Choppa)
. . . . 1 Nobz (Slugga; Power Klaw)
. . . . 1 Nobz (Waaagh! Banner; Slugga; Big Choppa)
. . . . 1 Trukk (Grot Rigger; Red Paint Job)

Fast Attack:
. . 5 Warbikers, 190 pts
. . . . 1 Biker Nob (Bosspole; Slugga; Power Klaw)

Total Roster Cost: 1000

Off the top of my head, you're probably better off with the Kult of Speed, purely for the allocation shenanigans - saying that, I wouldn't hold me to that if I were you.

lool alright then. Thank you

Second is the best, but combinbe all the kommandos into one unit. 5 orks are not going to last to do anything. The first one isn't ba either. I just don't like the green tide army. Kinda boring. IMHO

I like the dakka list, but i would split the Lootas in 3groups of 5 instead. And the last 5points can give the Mek 'eavy armour, its bad but you are not using the points anyway.

Thanks fellas, in response to your comments.

I plan on running one of these at the next 1,000 pt tourney

combining the kommando units is not a bad idea at all since im using snikrot, however i lack anti vehicle power so thats why i set it up this way, to keep the opponent on his toes with possible attacks from all sides outflanking.

In this vehicle heavy 5th ed i think this is a necessary evil even if i lose a bit in KP. Also nothing hurts an army more than having that one key unit in reserve not show up until turn 5. So by having 3 of them i am giving me an almost guarantee of getting at least one of them on turn 2 to help out.

On the dakkalist splitting up the lootas makes them way more innefective with much lower chances of actually doing any good damage and furthermore allowing my opponent more KPs with no particular advantage.

Lootas are terrible in small squads. If i had extra points i would maybe do 2 units of 8 but that would be the minimum size i would consider anywhere near effective for a loota mob.

Ok I get the Idea. The probklem with your logic is that 5 boys will not do enough damage to even try to do this. They are going last against most armies in CC. Chance to die there. If they come out with nothing to charge they die. I personally am not a fan of kommados especially at this points level. They are just to pricey for what they can and have a potential to do.

As far as the Lootas go. I think 5 man are alittle small as well. I would like to see a couple of different squads in there though. One big squd is just over kill on one thing a turn. That means 5 shoots at the least. Are they going to do enough in 5 turns? That is what you have to think about. Myabe take out one boys squad and make 2 squad of 10 lootas. Take the other points and add a couple of big guns bateries w some kannons. The added AT weapons will help you out tremendously.

Maybe something like this.

Mek: KFF

Lootas x9
Lootas x9

Shootas x20: BShoota
-Nob: PK, BP, BShoota
Shootas x20: BShoota
-Nob: PK, BP, BShoota
Shootas x20: BShoota
-Nob: PK, BP, BShoota

Big guns x3: Kannons
-2 extra crew
Big guns x3: Kannons
-2 extra crew

997 pts.

The kommandos are to target vehicles thats why i made the vehicle argument. The boys are really just there because i can't take the Nob with PK by himself lol

and snikrot unit gives me the ability to threaten any edge.

for the dakka list i like your edit and would go with that unfortunately i dont have big guns or extra lootas so for what I can field I think i have the best options already in there for that list.

As for a mob of 15 lootas being overkill...that depends, do you want a guaranteed kill or just fire support to soften up targets before a charge?

This is a very shooty list of Orks so I am going on the assumption that i'll be in firefights most of the time with possibility for strong assaults in which case the larger mob makes more sense specially with taking out transports effectively so that the rest of the army can shoot at the guys inside where otherwise they would be pretty useless.

At least that's my reasoning. If those werent shootas and i would be running up the field the whole time then I would think 2 units of lootas would do me better in softening up key targets until the bulk of my army gets to their lines. But that's not the case here

Well again kommandos will not always be able to target anything if they outflank. I know if I knew you had outflankers I would stay away from edge. It is only a 1k army so there is alot of space on the table to evade.

As for the Lootas, I am not sying not to take 15. I in fact use 15 man squads. I use 2 however. I'm just saying one squad of 15 isn't really going to help you, but so much. You have one target. Yes that target is going to die. Thats it though one target. Thats all I am saying.

Now how I would use my list. I would simple sit there maybe move up with the boys first turn an stay in the center of the board. Use the lootas and kannons to open up transports so the shootas can unload on them. At 1k you are going to be able to pretty much out shoot most armies. You should also out number most armies as well. You do have a 18" range with your boys so you don't have to get super close. The you have the BShootas that will out range most armies small arms weapons anyways.

I don't know, that is just my way of thinking anyways. You have to do what you are comfortable with and models you have.

Just my thoughts.
Cheers!

I completely agree the kommandos wont ALWAYS have a target when they show up. But the point is to threaten them as I mentioned above.

There's still 3 trukks riding up the middle packing PKs its not like the opponent will be better off running down the middle. And considering that ive given myself a good chance of getting 1 kommando unit by turn 2, the opponent will NOT have moved too far away in just 2 turns when there's 3 speeding trukks with 4+ cover rushing him

In my experience very few armies will actually try to move down the middle to face off against speeding trukks full of boys with a PK. and if im rushing them down the middle odds are the opponent will try to evade to the sides...where my kommandos have a chance or stay at the back lines where snikrot has a chance.

The list pretty much is meant to be build around the kommandos there and i'm just aiming it at maximizing their effectiveness.

As for the lootas thing like i said earlier if i HAD the kannons and extra lootas i would def go with your suggestions as you def have a much better set up than i do overall IMO. But for what I actually own I think i have a pretty solid set up as well.

Ok so what are you going to do about transports? Yes the Pk will kill them, but thats it. The squad will get shot up next turn a you have no way of attcking those that are inside the transport. Yes you have a couple of deffkoptas but those will probably be dead after first turn. I just don't think you have the staying power that is all.

What happens if they destroy your trukks?

I for one would not be scared of 5 boys outflanking at me even with a PK attached. They will die before they even get to do anything. Yes snikrot is a bit different but he is alos only with 5 other boys. Not very intimidating IMHO. Weither or not I have stuff within charge range. I just don't care about 5-6 Orks, they just don't threaten anything. Again IMHO.

You might want to try this out before you are set in stone.

Name 5 armies that can destroy 3 trukks protected by KFF at 1,000 pts.

I dont think many armies can do it at that point value...trukks in small games with KFF are a pretty safe bet (as good as any)

If we just go entirely by 'what if' scenarios then ANYTHING is possible. It's also possible that 'what if the enemy rolls so badly that nothing at all dies in my army the whole game'

Just saying im going for tourney play i expect 3 to 4 tanks at 1,000 pts on average.

While i admittedly havent play tested lootas or SAG enough. I use the kommandos all the time thats one unit that I can proudly say I actually do know how to use effectively.

If the point limit were higher i would use my standard 12 man kommando units, but at 1k points and lacking any other form of vehicle suppression this is a great alternative. Much better than 1 large mob that could potentially end up on the wrong side of the table.

And if im taking snikrot with the unit i would lose the very valuable PK

I just dont see your alternative as being as good due to those reasons. You are too concerned on the damage that the boys will do IMHO where the kommandos arent there to engage uber CC untis.

4 choppa sluggas = 16 attacks on the charge
1 Nob with PK = 4 power weapon attacks on the charge

This is enough to take out any AV 10 rear armor vehicle in the game and enough to mop the floor with none CC specialized units

against CC specialized units i slam my boys in the trukks in multiple assault.

Its only 1k man...the big deathstar units wont probably be present and if they are they are usually really heavy point commitment for the player using it.

Ok, the problem is with those 4 boys 3 will die before they get to swing. Even against non CC units. A good roll all might die. But that is here nor there.

I understand you want to make sure you get squad out on turn 2. Thats all well and good. I am just trying to tell you that no one that I know would be scared of a unit of 5 boys. Especially that are coming from a board edge at random and only moving 6". At this point level I will straight up be in the middle of the board not worring about your outflankers as they will come in piece meal and come in randomly.

As far as the armies killing your trukks. Orks, Necrons, Marines, Dark Eldar and Tau. I know my 1k list would give you a really tough time.

Mek:KFF, EA, CBB

Lootas x10
Lootas x10

Shootas x25: Bshoota
-Nob: PK, BP, BShoota
Dread: 2x Bshootas, Riggers, AP's

Kans x3: Rokkits
Kans x3: Rokkits

Enough fire power to kill all your trukks first turn and then its a shooting gallery for me. You don't have enough fire pwoer to kill my walkers. Your kommandos mean little to me. Yes snikrot will charge my lootas and I will lose a couple for sure. I will probably kill your squad back as the are still ork and I double your numbers. If I don't your squad gets shot by other squad of lootas or my shoota boys. The squad that are outflanking will not be able to deal with my kans as they are what covers my flanks.

I am sorry I m not trying to make you not take it. I applaud you for trying something different. I am just trying to show you that it reaally isn't a good idea. You want a competitve army for a tourney. If it was just for a friendly game I would say go for it all day. You are taking Orks that are almost double of what other Orks are and handing them to the enemy.

I am only trying to help and give my point of view, that is all.

You missed this very important point i made

This is enough to take out any AV 10 rear armor vehicle in the game and enough to mop the floor with none CC specialized units

As i said they are meant to go for units that they CAN kill.

I think you are overstimating your army a bit, yes you are def putting out more firepower than me. But a game of 40k is never just based on numbers alone.

Terrain factors in big time in every game. You won't be shooting through an open field will you?

I play 5 diff armies, soon to be 6 when those GK finally arrive at my door step, i build up a lot of 1k lists and know that it's a point sink for most armies to bring out the heavy stuff at 1k. Necrons are now improved at 1k in this new codex (I play necrons) but they def dont run as well at low point games they wont have all this AV weaponry unless it's a court of lightning crypteks and even then they'd have to be split up into smaller weaker units to reliably kill 3 trukks with 4+ cover

I also play marines, whom can do anti tank better than necrons in lower point games but usually not enough to drop 3 trukks with cover saves turn 1. It would have to be a very anti vehicle dedicated space marine army.

i dont play dark eldar, but i know venom/blaster spam isn't THAT cheap. (dark eldar were in high consideration for my 6th army) they'll prob bring like 4 or 5 venoms and a handful of blasters still not enough to drop all 3 trukks turn 1.

My regular opponent plays Tau, i have fought that army almost every week for the past 5 years, they are too expensive to kill my trukks turn 1. No tau player in his right mind deploys in the front lines with his troops so i'll be getting shot at by possible hammerheads/broadsides/skyrays some combination of those unfortunately for them most of their guns are single shot which is why the trukks will survive. The only thing that truly is capable of accomplishin the feat is if the opponent brings a lot of seeker missiles and pathfinders + skyray so that the trukks get marked and barraged in that case then yes Tau would succeed. But again those are expensive to field at 1k

Now back to the Orks, i concede you seem much more experienced than me with Orks (ive only been playing them since Assault on Black Reach was released a year or two ago, and they came "free" in it so i decided to just start up the army) But there are a few things I do know as a 40k player in general

From 10 lootas your odds are to get 20 shots, 7 hits, 3.5 that glance or better and then i cover save half of those so you have 1.75 total on damage chart. Still have to hope to a 4+ if ur goal is to wreck the trukk

With luck on your side you will have wrecked 2 trukks on turn 1. The kans wont reach if they are guarding ur flanks as you said, with their 24" range.

All im saying is as much of a noob ork player that i am...I know that in small point games i never seen somone drop all 3 of my trukks with KFF in turn 1. In higher point games hell yes, but not in 1k.

In objective games you would be hard pressed to win with 2 troops only and a largely slow army with poor range aside from the Lootas. I dont necessarily need to charge at you, i could just move away from your 48" loota range until snikrot shows up and deals with them for me at which point you'll have to move or lose as kans have much less of a chance of destroying the trukks than the lootas did.

IF i manage to drag you to the sidelines with this strategy then you are already bait for my kommandos so i assume you'll stick wth your strategy of 'keep the middle' right? fair enough my kommandos show up hide out in some good 4+ cover terrain and wait.

At the end of the day you only have 2 troops. I have 3.
And i have mobility.
Missions
In seize ground I can take more objectives than you.
In capture and control i can simply place my objective in terrain aaaall the way in a corner and reserve my entire army outflanking with 5 units and moving on to the table eith the 3 trukks...
In kill points you have the advantage so im forced to reserve and play guerilla tactics against you which my army is actually specialized in.
Deployments
pitched battle is a positional battle for deployment whoever goes first really has the advantage to dictate the fight, however my mobility will be the winning ticket as your strategy will be to avoid the sidelines (and yet you said that those kommandos dont scare anyone....)
spearhead is clearly my advantage as i can maneuver way easier and outflankers can come right at your back. And i doubt you'll set up those lootas right at the front of ur army where my guys in trukks can get to them turn 1
dawn of war - also my advantage as your lootas will have to walk on and not be able to shoot turn 1, where as i can have a unit on the field in it's trukk protected by night fighting.

Mind you I think your army overall is better than mine competitively. I just think you are overstimating yourself and not seeing the advantages of mine at all, or considering all the things that make a game of 40k, like terrain/deployment/mission types.

If the game would be set on an open field everyone deployed in the middle and you goign first, then im screwed. But thats just not realistic.

Also the deffkoptas CAN reliably destroy your Dread turn 1 and then you'd have just 1 troop choice all game.
TL rokkit vs your AV 10 in the back + 3 S7 initiateve 3 attacks vs your AV12 are decent odds. better yet if i aim for it with both of them to make sure you dont have enough troops to hold the game.

And if any of my kommandos assault your lootas, its game over for the lootas they wont kill many kommandos with their return attacks. One thing ive def learned from orks is that if CC dedicated units get the charge on ya...you are toast.

my S4 and initie 3 vs your S3 initiative 2. It's not a fair fight, specially when im getting 16 attacks on you before you can strike at me best case scenario for you would be to be wiped out so you can shoot my unit after with another unit of yours. If you actually managed to cling on and not die then thats a bonus for me as I get to survive 1 more turn without taking too much damage.

Only way to circumvent this would be to deploy your units in difficult terrain so i can hit simultaneously (furious charge would still spike me up to initiative 2) and i still have the advantage in strength. Every ork player knows that S3 vs T4 is a poor match up when you hit on 4s.

Ok I was being friendly at giving my point of view. I was not attacking your tactics or ability. I was however telling your to beware of what you plan.

Now as far as it goes I have been playing for 12 years. I have played at one point all the armies available except for SoB. I am also aware that terrain/deployement and mission comes in to factor. The problem is you are telling me what I would do in a situation. That is not always neccesary true. You might think I would do something and do the opposite. But that is really here nor there. The thing is can you adapt ond overcome those situations?

As far as shooting all of your trukks. I don't care about mathammer. I don't follow it, I don't believe in it and I don't care! You could tell me that my Lootas are going to miss every shot. I will still use them and use them to the best of there ability. As far as the lootaas not being able to shoot at you they do have a 48" range which is the length of the table. Sure you can back into a corner but if you are doing that then that is fine I will play for that draw. It doesn't matter if I win. It does matter that I played the best game with what I had.

Now lets get into the armies. First I want to talk about Tau. Lets see I would take about 50 Fire warriors against you and some Suits. I think that is more then enough fire power to put a dent in those trukks. After all they do have a 30" range so can be back and still shoot you.

DEldar I don't need to use venom blaster spam. I have enough firepower in just the vehicle alone. Not my strong point mind you but more then enough ways to get the firepower out there. Not to mention they can out CC Orks.

Marines are really an easy choice here. Tac squads would have no problem punching the trukks apart. Enough long range fire from them and anything that is there for support. Tanks, Dreads and Speeders to name a few.

Don't even get me started with GK's. They are the bane to Orks. High str weapons with multiple shoots. Crazy psychic powers to just wipe orks off the board. Higher Int. to kill Orks before they fight. Multiple shot str 5 weapons are more then enough to stop a trukk as well.

Now getting to beating my list. I would love to know how you plan on getting to the rear of my Dread? Then being able to charge it as well. You will not be able to kill it in CC as I will be going first as I am Int 2. You however will be 1 because of the PK. I would also like to know how you plan on killing all of my boys? They will be behind all of walkers that you have to get through first. Getting my 4+ cover. Like you said I would probably lose a squad of lootas to Snikrot. That is fine. They would have done there job at that point anyways. The Dread can't even hold an objective as he is a vehicle. But what do I know?

As far as missions goes. I prefer objective missions. They make the other person thank to much and end up losing. I have my plan and it never changes. Spearhead is a great mission for my list I can tell you that. So I would enjoy seeing you on the other side within range to "get to me turn one."

Look we both have our tactics, but I think you are also overestimating the stupidity of your opponents. But hey feel free to do with what you will. It is not my place to tell you otherwise. I am just a vesal to get information from. What you do with that information is totally up to you.

But please tell me how it goes so I can say "I told you so".

Cheers!

I wasn't telling you what you would do in a situation I was quoting you...you've been saying this whole time you would plot yourself in the middle the moment you see my army. So my discussion took this strategy of yours into account since you seem to have so much faith in it.

And im not going to be playing for a draw, i would simply play to win the best way possible that i can versus a clearly superior force. And that is to stay out of your range...48" from short table edge to short table edge...there's however a 72" long table edge as well which I would use to my advantage to avoid your fire until i can get those kommandos to deal with the lootas. It's simple strategy of the most basic nature once the lootas are gone I have the advantage.

As i said, i've fought tau like a 1,000 times I usually beat them no matter who's playing them just because I played against them so much that i know them extremely well as if they were my own army. And Tau players do NOT deploy at the fore front with their fire warriors because it obviously doenst maximize the use of their superior range. you can take 50 fire warriors but that would NOT be a competitive list that anyone would bring to a tournament, and you would be the only tau player to ever plant 50 fire warriors all the way at the front that i have ever seen.

Already mentioned DE venom spam with blasters, which is a common competitive list but exactly how many shots are coming in....at 1k pts these are not instant hits man, I tried to make a venom spam list myself when i wanted DE for my 6th army and its not quite so easy. Perhaps if they brought 3 ravagers at 1k pts, but that's unlikely and even then 1 ravager alone with 3 shots, gets 2 hits, 83% chance to glance or better and i negate 50% of what makes it through and this is assuming there's clear LOS on an open field.

Marines usually try to get razorspam with meltas, and vanilla marines cant even do that in small units. At 1k point you wont be seeing many dreads/speeders in a competitive marine list either. I concede however that Long Fangs would ruin my day, or psyriflemen from GK. Other marine armies would be hard pressed in their competitive builds to knock down all 3 trukks in 1 go

Big Mek can make a Dread a troop choice wasn't that FAQ'd to make it scoring? If not and you ONLY have 1 troop choice for objectives then you are a a way bigger disadvantage than I originally thought. How do you ever win competitive games with that list where there's objectives???

Deffkoptas can easily manuever behind your dread/kans it's called a scout move. If im going first i turbo=boost 24" and then move another 12" turn 1 i can literally cross the field and assault your lootas too if i wished on turn 1.

So if i send both of them after your dread, that should be a dead dread at the expense of a dead deffkopta perhaps. I should be able to easily maneuver around it shot 2 rokkits at it's bakc and assault it...you only have 3 attacks at WS 4, you are unlikely to kill both my guys and im likely to have damaged you in some way with my shots. I can always pray for 2 armament destroyed results lol or immobilised in which case i dont even need to assault it 2 big shootas are nothing to worry about for my list.

Your shoota boys will find themselves at the wrong end of my trukk boys's choppas. i will be getting the charge, i can tank shock you out of cover and when i assault i will wipe all those boys clean since i'm getting furious charge bonus. This can happen by turn 4 for all i care as i wait for the kommandos or koptas to remove the pesky lootas

the other kommandos can heavily damage those killa kan squads too. you get 6 attacks on the kans with WS 2, you wont kill any of my kommando squads before the PK opens a Kan of whoop ass pun intended. You will win the combat with combat resolution no doubt, but not by much and you'll still have to stay locked.

6 attacks from your cans WS 2 S10, that's 3 dead kommandos.

4 attacks from my PK WS 4 S9, thats 3 highly likely damage results, potentially 3 dead kans but let's give you the benefit of the doubt. and say that only 2 of my attacks make it through. You win combat by just 1, i have bosspole I wont break away we stay locked in combat and you've lost 2 kans even if you only lose one or only take armament destroyed results it's a win for me.

Like i said you are really overestimating your units...your army is not that great at CC bro, I can concede that you clearly out shoot mine, why is it so hard to see the fact that I out CC yours?

.I have the advantage in spearhead liek i said, you have to deploy in a box and the table edges are set up so outflankers hit your rear instead of your sides. My advantage comes because of the long table edge giving me a much easier chance to stay out of the 48" range of your guns. As i siad i fight against tau all the time, and i use this against them all the time when in spearhead often reserving my army to come from the adjacent edge to cut the distance and prevent them from shooting me.

And im not overstimating my opponent's stupidity im quoting YOUR tactics that you keep mentioning.

Your whole game plan as you've said it is to surround yourself with kans right in the middle of the map. This is how you insist you will deal with my kommandos am i making this up?? Because apparently they don't scare ANYONE as a threat to their lists.

That's what im disputing here, that this is not true that they ARE a real threat and have high chances of coming in turn 2. And that plotting your whole army in the middle of the map is not the best idea inthe world and only shows if anything that you ARE infact concerned about the kommandos otherwise why deploy like that??

It seems to me that you insist that your army would annihilate mine just because yours is a bit better overall. And im trying to show you how your arrogance in believing this (perhaps it's your Orky nature) can turn out to back fire on you by showing you that it's quite easy for me to counter your stated strategy and quickly turn the tables on you in many different scenarios.

Against a competitive range of enemies i 100% agree your list should perform better than mine. Except i dont like that you ONLY have 1 troop choice for objectives thats waaaaaay too much faith on your shootas.

But on a 1 on 1 my army versus yours I am certain that I would win it as long as I can deal with the lootas first. And it seems to me that you obviously dont even expect the koptas to be a problem so i would easily surprise you

Hell i can even have the koptas charge in turn 1 and shoot/assult your lootas all the way at the back where ever they are hiding. And enjoy seeing their 20 attacks hit 10, and then try to wound me on 6s...remember im T5 you are S3. Those lootas will get 1 or 2 wounds on me and i have a 4+ save.

Mathematically 1 deffkopta with buzzsaw and TL rokkit > 10 lootas.

I will win the combat and possibly wipe your lootas the only reason i never suggested this before is because im on the assumption that the lootas will have a wall of shootas infront of them so i would have no place to 'land' my koptas but if i do, they are done for. And my trukks can safely travel right down the middle to see how good those kans can shoot....

Just food for thought.

Note: We can always run both of these lists on vassal so you can see for yourself that my list isnt quite the walkover list you make it out to be

Ok you bring up some good points even though they are flawed. I would run my list up the middle against any army. Not just yours. Its built like that. You will not be able to get into CC with my lootas or my boys first turn as they will be protected. That is what the walkers are for protection. You seem to think I need my lootas to win. They are they to provide support. If they do that by being a big target well good on them. If you want to spend the whole game trying to kill them then I win. If you ignore them I win.

If you haven't figure out I don't care about stats or net lilsts.

When I played my Tau I had 72 fire warriors in it. I didn't use Markerlights, I didn't use devilfish I just shot you to pieces. It worked really well. However it was very boring as I didn't do much moving. So I do think Fire warrrios are more trouble some then people think. I did have some suits for AT and some broadsides but that was it.

You talk as your will out class me in CC. I am sure you are right. I don't useally get into CC with my Orks. I play a shooty Ork army and feel that I don't need to get into CC to win. I will however if I need to. But yes you are right you are built more for CC so I would hope that you would outclass me in CC. If not then you might be doing something wrong. But you also put to much trust in your PK's. I am not so sure they will do what you think they will. But again I don't care about Mathammer. Especially playing as Orks.

As far as only having 1 scoring troop. Well it hasn't failed me yet and I don't see it failing anytime soon. Yes it is a risk. I am ok with that. Just like you are taking a risk and taking 5 boys in a squad. As foolish as we both might be.

You are also pretty much thinking you are getting first turn in all of your scenerios. The koptas can't assault if there dead. Your boys can't move fast if trukks are blow up. But yes I do have to worry if you get first turn. That is the thing with me I can adapt and overcome. Can you adate if I by chance blow up all of your trukks first turn? What will you do then? What happens if both those koptas blow up as well? Your list has that probelm its really a one trick pony. Its trukks zooming to get up there fast. Its koptas to suicide and kill a Tank/Transport. Its outflanking with small Ork squads to drop off PK's. All your units are designed to do something. Nothing really supports each other. You think they do buit honestly they really don't. My list has got support from every unit. The Kans support the boys, which in turn support the Kans, which support the Lootas, which in turn support the Kans. Thats just my thought on the matter.

I am not sure what this Vassal is, but Ok?

Anyways good luck to you.

lol you played with 72 fire warriors? that's awesome in of itself i would've loved to see that.

makes me sad that there's not more players liek that around, i run lists like that here and there...

and yes i do enjoy taking a risk or two with my lists, gotta spice things up or just play what you feel like playing some times.

im not big on net listing, however i do like to be informed. and well informed i do try to stay

I don't think i will get 1st turn in every scenario either i'm simply confident that i will decide the terms of the battle after deployment due to my superior mobility. It's a no-brainer, as someone that often runs slow armies, i know whoever is most mobile will usually dictate the pace .

Luck is fickle it can tip it's hat to either of us I dont dispute that however there are odds, and i can only use that to judge and make decisions on. Not sure if i had said this before but I often reserve my army when the opponent has the advantage, if you are going first I will be keeping my army in reserve and then you can't kill anything. I do this all the time vs tau since they easily outrange me and always works out well guerilla tactics tend to work well and shooty armies unlike cc armies depend on getting in as many turns of shooting as possible to maximize damage. CC armies simply need to get there

And i think you have my list wrong, my list and i think i said this earlier is meant to be based around the kommandos, everything is there to support the kommnandos. It's a hammer and anvil strategy. pressing the enemy from one flank in order to crush them from the opposite flank. I think my army functions perfectly towards that goal.

Vassal is a program that lets us play 40k through the computer takes a bit of getting used to but its THE best way of playing tabletop across the globe without actually having to travel.

Ok so you would reserve everything to not get shot at. Not a very good plan IMHO. You will then come in piece meal and then get shot. You are better off just picking a flank and charging it. Using terrain and the KFF like its intended. Also when you do reserve your trukks you only effectivly gain a 6" move on the turn they come in. They can only turbo boost 18" after all. That is just the wrong thing to do and I am surprised you win with this tactic. How does that help you kommandos out also? Your kommandos might come out and none of your trukks do so now you have 15 orks on the field against a 1k army. Or even if a trukk or 2 comes out they still can't support the kommandos like you wish as they are still effectivly in your deployment zone.

Ok the army is built around the Kommandos. All 15 of them? You have 30 boys and 2 Koptas to support units that may or may not come on the field the turn you want them to. I am just baffled at this. Kommandos are the ones that useally do the supporting. Which brings my to my point, 5 kommandos does not support anything. But hey thats a difference of opinions.

Mobility does have a big part in games for sure. But if I can exploit your mobility or destroy your mobility then you are going to be at a loss. Lossing an advantage losses you the game.(at least for the most part) It would be tough to take away my advantage with your list.

Agree to diagree I guess.

The point to reserving is to give the kommandos time to show up and pick off the lootas then your ranged weaponry wont be a big threat to me.

And you may have dawn of war deployment mixed up with reserves rules. When a unit arrives from reserve it is allowed to move in normally from the table edge this does include turbo-boosting in thus the trukks dont need to only move in 6" they can come in at full speed.

This is how the list 'adapts' to disadvantageous situations. In either case i cant charge to your lines whilst the lootas remain at large so that from my end will be priority #1.

5 kommadnos do not support anything...but as you said "All 15 of them?" I have more than 5 don't I? It's a hammer and anvil strategy keep that in mind, doesnt matter which one baits as long as the other one hammers.

It's like arguing what comes first the chicken or the egg.

I agree with your point 100% correct, if you kill my mobility I lose my advantage over you and thus I lose the game, my list cannot deal with your shooting on foot.

Thats why you've seen me bring up this whole time that my priority is your lootas, thats your best shooting and the most dangerous to my mobility. The rest can be dealt with head on.

And the anvil and hammer strategy works for not just me but many other players with not just orks. This is a great tactic, catch their attention and strike from their rear

You totally missed the point I was trying to make with you only moving 6". The point I was trying to make is you will only net 6' of movement for the table edge instead of deploying and netting 30" form the table edge. As i said before hen you come on you can only move up to 18" with a turbo boost. Which is 6" past your deployment. So you see you are actually not really gaining anything. Also not to mention you lose a turn of play.

You are not going to get all 15 out at once most of the time. so in fact you will not be able to handle eveything.

I understand hammer and anvil tactics. But I would like to jnow what is the hammer in your force? I don't see and anvil and I don't hammer. I see the making of ech. Niether really works for either. IMHO anyways.

Dawn of war creates other problems for sure. But The lootas are still orks and they still can handle themselves in CC if I need to. My army can be versitle if need be. I just don't see that with your army.

Orks suck when they dont get the charge in CC, even choppa & slugga boyz get wasted when charged.

I have learned that the hard way...had an autarch wipe out a full mob of boyz once...-shudders-

Whatever I assualt the lootas with from my army list will wipe the lootas out without much of a fight from the lootas. And i dont need all 15 kommandos to come in at once I just need to handicap your lootas enough so that you cant blow up 2 of my trukks right away, then i can rush in.

And now i understand what you mean bout the 6" passed, im still on vehicles 6" passed on 1 turn is nothing to concern myself with since i get another move next turn and by then ur lootas will be crippled so i dont have to worry about being shot down as much. Thats the whole point

the kommandos are the anvil the rest of the army is the hammer. I learned the tactic from the-waagh.com normally i would've just had a regular large army of orks with 1 kommando unit. But i find this gorkamorka tactic is so much more fun to play in this way that earns it some points.

i love it!

player A - which list is better and why?
player B - i think this <insert list here> is better
player A - but i like the other one, i think its better, and here is why
Player B - you asked and i answered <giving feedback as requested>
Player A - your wrong

sorry, not trying to be a butthead, but that exchange cracked me up.

as far as the list goes. my 1000 point list in marines would easily kill three truks, especially if they are all within 6" of each other, as i dont have to do a lot of re-positioning and can probably sit and shoot to take them out, and so would any GK list that fields more than one or two psycannons, ESPECIALLY if they are mounted. also in 1k points, dreads with psyammo are very popular, (as are rifleman dreads for meq armies) and they will de-mech you regardless of your KFF. its just too many hits to stop reliably.

Kommandos are cute, but if you come in off the edge you might not immediately be in range to do anything, and squads of five are just one psycannon from running away. Also, at this points level, mobility will be very important, and rhinos holding troops will be common. dont expect your opponents to be there on turn two when you get to come in.

in fact, they probably wont be.

truks are normally a weaker unit choice for the lower points games for orks. traditional wisdom states that at 1000 points, you take a can wall and slog it across the table. my 1k ork lists looks like this.

5 lootas
5 lootas
20 man shoota boyz
20 man shoota boyz
3 kans
3 kans (all with rokkit launchas)
mek w/kff
and the rest gets filled out with some kind of disruption unit that reliably can do its job. normally defkoptas with buzz saws do this job nicely, but have been known to go with nob bikers, although they are tremendoulsy expensive.

i also kit up my boyz squads to include a nob with klaw and a couple of rokkit launchas, so i can still get shots at armor and help de-meching before i get close.

failing that, i will often take just more boyz over the koptas because of how strong that makes your mobs. that's just me though, i don't have all the answers.

I like the first one. Green tide is (IMO) the most competitive army for orks. Cult of Speed is more fun (and agian IMO) is around semi-competitive. I just like playing green tide though. So there is a tiiiiiiiiny bit of favouritism there .

Though I am trying some new Armored Krumpeny lists. I really enjoy playing with them. Lots of a fun and LOTS of ramshackle!

as an additional breakdown, here are my thoughts on your three armies:

Cult of speed dies badly to GK's which you have to plan on playing against. all those force weapons means you just die horribly to their insta-kill functionality. i wouldnt run it at all. its like nob bikers. too much STR 8 spam.

Dakka has no way in it to punch armor outside of the combat step. all i have to do is stay in a rhino and stay 12" inches away and you cant return meaningful fire. in fact, you really cant return any kind of shot that would even affect AV11 outside of getting lucky on rolling a six to glance it with a big shoota.

GorkaMorka is funny, and could work, if i was going to run one of these lists it would be that, but kommandos would have to go. probably replace those with more boys in truks and mabey something that can shoot and actually hit a tank. maybe more deff koptas or something....i dont like relying on outlfank to get units into hand to hand, especially in smaller point games where they have a bigger ammount of space to move in. the points could be used to get a few more deff koptas and bolster the boys squads.

Not to jump in in the middle of an argument, but i was just wondering why you think that the lootas are going to be able to be reached by your commandos on turn 3. Also i have had squads of 5 lootas beat 5 space marines on a consistent basis, and honestly I would agree that 5 orks would get burnt before they even got to the power claw turn when faced with 15 orks. I mean look at the math, yes your non PK orks will go first with what 16 attacks? Correct me if im wrong i never know if i have those attacks correct, but it goes 2 base, 1 for charge 1 for 2 cc weps. from how ive always played. then you have the same weapon skill, that's 8 attacks landing on average, with 4 of them being wounds. Ill even give you that orks never get the 6+ save so 4 lootas die. Then applying the same math the lootas have 22 attacks to answer with (just 2 per ork), so with the same math as before that's 11 hits and 5 wounds. Ill give you one save, so then the PK goes and kills some more, but hes going to die next assault phase before he returns attacks.

Long story short, i would take those odds any day against the kommandos. Honestly i would just turn and shoot your kommandos once they come on the table, lootas could easily wipe a squad of 5 orks in one shooting phase, let alone the face that once you take 2 wounds thats a leadership test that you have to make....

Im not trying to knock your strategy, i would like to try it myself, but not in a tournament is the only thing. It would be fun in just a pick up game for sure! and feel free to shoot me down if Im being a noob and completely missing some aspect.

22 attacks, 11 hits....

Now if you really play orks as often as you say you do...you'd know that when orks get charged they run into this little issue called

Strength 3....

Against Toughness 4....

You wound on 5s

So no thats not 5 wounds...it's actually 2 or 3 wounds.

So lets say just like in YOUR example that 6+ doesnt help, and 3 of my orks die.

Then i get my PK attacks, and kill 2 more lootas.

Now those lootas are NO LONGER fearless, and lost combat by 3.

What are the odds that they don't get swept ? VERY VERY VERY LOW

better pray to the dice Gods for snake eyes! Otherwise buh bye lootas.

Every ork player worth his salt knows that orks are strong on the charge. When charged by other semi-proficient cc units Orks crumble. SPECIALLY shooty orks of all things.

This is the CORRECT math hammer. I know it not just from math hammer but lots and lots of play experience where ive had even large mobs of my boys totally get destroyed by a couple of T4 or T5 units assaulting them.

It's a shame but this is common knowledge.

Your right, it is a shame...

Can I ask why you have no boarding planks on the Trukks? Is your mentality that with open topped your really not planning on the trukks lasting long enough to bother getting back into?

Sc077y wrote:i love it!

player A - which list is better and why?
player B - i think this <insert list here> is better
player A - but i like the other one, i think its better, and here is why
Player B - you asked and i answered <giving feedback as requested>
Player A - your wrong

sorry, not trying to be a butthead, but that exchange cracked me up.

as far as the list goes. my 1000 point list in marines would easily kill three truks, especially if they are all within 6" of each other, as i dont have to do a lot of re-positioning and can probably sit and shoot to take them out, and so would any GK list that fields more than one or two psycannons, ESPECIALLY if they are mounted. also in 1k points, dreads with psyammo are very popular, (as are rifleman dreads for meq armies) and they will de-mech you regardless of your KFF. its just too many hits to stop reliably.

Kommandos are cute, but if you come in off the edge you might not immediately be in range to do anything, and squads of five are just one psycannon from running away. Also, at this points level, mobility will be very important, and rhinos holding troops will be common. dont expect your opponents to be there on turn two when you get to come in.

in fact, they probably wont be.

truks are normally a weaker unit choice for the lower points games for orks. traditional wisdom states that at 1000 points, you take a can wall and slog it across the table. my 1k ork lists looks like this.

5 lootas
5 lootas
20 man shoota boyz
20 man shoota boyz
3 kans
3 kans (all with rokkit launchas)
mek w/kff
and the rest gets filled out with some kind of disruption unit that reliably can do its job. normally defkoptas with buzz saws do this job nicely, but have been known to go with nob bikers, although they are tremendoulsy expensive.

i also kit up my boyz squads to include a nob with klaw and a couple of rokkit launchas, so i can still get shots at armor and help de-meching before i get close.

failing that, i will often take just more boyz over the koptas because of how strong that makes your mobs. that's just me though, i don't have all the answers.

- Ok if you are going to try to be funny at least get the facts correct -smh-

Or just don't skim the thread if you plan on making a quotation

player A - which list is better to take to my next 1k pt tourney? (I never asked to be told why, or advice on how to improve it for anyone that can properly read)
player B - i think this <insert list here> is better, but change kommandos into 1 large mob
player A - I like it the way it is, its a bigger threat this way. Thanks
Player B - No! You are wrong, the suggestion I offered is clearly the best way. Here's another off-topic suggestion
Player A - Mmm..ok that is a great army list you are suggesting...that I don't have. If i had it i would go with it, but alas I don't, so thats why i asked for opinions on which to take that I do have!
Player B - Well as your list currently is, it doesn't cause concern to anyone, your trukks will all 100% gauranteed die turn 1 and you will fail horribly no ands ifs or buts about it. Here's my personal list that will mop the floor with yours
Player A - Eerr...I don't think so and this, this, this and this is why.

If you would actually READ carefully through the thread...you would see this is exactly how it played out. And again...I NEVER asked for advice or suggestions on what to change on the lists. The question was 'which one should i take to the tourney'

ParatrooperSimon wrote:I like the first one. Green tide is (IMO) the most competitive army for orks. Cult of Speed is more fun (and agian IMO) is around semi-competitive. I just like playing green tide though. So there is a tiiiiiiiiny bit of favouritism there .

Though I am trying some new Armored Krumpeny lists. I really enjoy playing with them. Lots of a fun and LOTS of ramshackle!

Thanks! You actually answered the question I posed and didn't go off-topic or took a dump on my list building ideas

Sc077y wrote:as an additional breakdown, here are my thoughts on your three armies:

Cult of speed dies badly to GK's which you have to plan on playing against. all those force weapons means you just die horribly to their insta-kill functionality. i wouldnt run it at all. its like nob bikers. too much STR 8 spam.

Dakka has no way in it to punch armor outside of the combat step. all i have to do is stay in a rhino and stay 12" inches away and you cant return meaningful fire. in fact, you really cant return any kind of shot that would even affect AV11 outside of getting lucky on rolling a six to glance it with a big shoota.

GorkaMorka is funny, and could work, if i was going to run one of these lists it would be that, but kommandos would have to go. probably replace those with more boys in truks and mabey something that can shoot and actually hit a tank. maybe more deff koptas or something....i dont like relying on outlfank to get units into hand to hand, especially in smaller point games where they have a bigger ammount of space to move in. the points could be used to get a few more deff koptas and bolster the boys squads.

Ok not too bad of a reply, I agree Nobz die horribly to GK. But then again what really doesn't ?? If i can perform well against the majority of opponents then that's good enough. There's always going to be 1 or 2 armies out there that whatever army list you bring will be a poor match up against. Just gotta accept it and keep it moving. Force a draw if you have to.

A rhino that is constantly moving 12" away from me is a rhino that is not holding objectives or shooting at me, nor are the troops inside. Thus that's a win for me.

I'm keeping the kommandos they are the center piece of that list, but I do see your point there. More deffkoptas arent good they work better as single units tho. I'm not relying on outflanking to get units into cc im relying on the pressure of being attacked from all sides to force the opponent to make tougher strategic decisions. Thus why the kommandos are essential. At least thats how i intend this list to play out anyway

Thanks for your input

BlkTom wrote:Your right, it is a shame...

Can I ask why you have no boarding planks on the Trukks? Is your mentality that with open topped your really not planning on the trukks lasting long enough to bother getting back into?

Yeah pretty much. I don't think the trukks can be destroyed easily all 3 in 1 turn specially if i use my brain in the slightest. But i am positive that they will surely be dead with subsequent shooting from anti vehicle dedicated units. So I spend just enough points to have the trukks do their job and then let them die a glorious orky death while i go on to assault things.

Plus im not a big fan of boarding planks anyway IMO the key upgrades are the ram, grot rig and red paint. The other stuff are just cool situational upgrades from my point of view/playstyle

Ahh... I am not sold on the Riggers on a Trukk myself, as I feel they are to fragile to bother to repair. I do like Red Paint job myself.

The only problem is that trukk mobs are just to small to my liking for moral purposes. I do love putting my meganobs in them though!

I think I will vote for Dakka though, as I assume your Big Mek is staying with the Lootas. I would be tempted to kit him out for close combat to give the unit a chance (2 Lootas= Klaw & Armor), but I can understand having 15 boyz too.

Roll Green Tide Roll!