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There has been some confusion in our area on the procedure of how this attack works against vehicles.

A- scarabs attack cause a minus X armor effect and the attack stops there. Though the armor value is reduced for the rest of game.

B- scarabs attack cause a minus X armor, and then rolls for armor penetration.

Which is correct?

Thanks, RB

B. There's no rule telling you that ES replaces a normal strike, and no rule telling you to stop the attack resolution after applying ES.

B.

There is no possible way, ever, to read it as A. At no point is there EVER ANY indication anywhere that the ES abilty removes their normal roll for penetration.

I would say B, but make sure you discuss it before the game with the opponent.

runmymouth wrote:I would say B, but make sure you discuss it before the game with the opponent.

Why? Am I supposed to discuss with my opponent that BS4 means that I hit on a 3+ on a D6, and not taking a deck of cards, drawing a card, and hitting on a Jack or a 7? There is no way to read it as A.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

runmymouth wrote:I would say B, but make sure you discuss it before the game with the opponent.

Why? Am I supposed to discuss with my opponent that BS4 means that I hit on a 3+ on a D6, and not taking a deck of cards, drawing a card, and hitting on a Jack or a 7? There is no way to read it as A.

Judging by how many times this question has come up, there are still a sizable number of people reading it as "A". Of course "B" is correct by RAW, but you're going to have a lot easier time convincing someone of that before a game than moments after you charged their Landraider.

"B" for another voice from the peanut gallery, and that is the call for the rest of the players at my FLGS.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Why? Am I supposed to discuss with my opponent that BS4 means that I hit on a 3+ on a D6, and not taking a deck of cards, drawing a card, and hitting on a Jack or a 7? There is no way to read it as A.

Whoa, BS4 means you hit on a Jack, 7 or any spade. Jokers are wild, but you might what you check with your TO.

B.

The house always hits on A, 7, not J, 7 and the spade thing is another game entirely...

In the codex the ctan can get a special rule called" entropic touch." it states : the shards close combat attacks have the entropic touch special rule. So if it was A) that would mean that not even a ctan would be able to destroy the vehicle, only take it's armour down which would make the ability useless. Entropic strike is a special rule that goes WITH the attacks being made. Basically, you hit and pen a vehicle as normal, you just get an extra ability to make it weaker for you to destroy it. Besides the rule isn't OP for scarabs, they die pretty easilly and are a good support unit. It's never a good idea to soley rely your list on them.

So do the scarabs roll for penetration after applying the AV reduction or before, and what in the wording leads you to this conclusion?

They do. The Entropic Strike is an additional effect of a Scarab's attack, it does not replace the Scarab's attack. The only similar thing which comes to mind is a Thunder Hammer stunning someone. The stunning is an effect applied by the attack, it does not replace the attack.

Since ES is rolled as soon as you hit, it is rolled before armour penetration attempts. The Scarabs attack with Str 3, as a result of hitting they get to test for ES and apply the AV drop. Then they roll for armour penetration on the new AV with their Str 3.

Dytalus wrote:They do. The Entropic Strike is an additional effect of a Scarab's attack, it does not replace the Scarab's attack. The only similar thing which comes to mind is a Thunder Hammer stunning someone. The stunning is an effect applied by the attack, it does not replace the attack.

Since ES is rolled as soon as you hit, it is rolled before armour penetration attempts. The Scarabs attack with Str 3, as a result of hitting they get to test for ES and apply the AV drop. Then they roll for armour penetration on the new AV with their Str 3.

What, in the writing, leads you to this conclusion? Do the rules specifically say "before armor penetration rolls are made"?

Let's face it: it's completely ambiguous. Since you roll for penetration "immediately" after rolling to hit anyway, the rule is essentially broken and, like everything that Ward touches, needs an FAQ.

It inserts a step, in EXACTLY the same way that you roll FNP immediately after suffering a wound, yet you immediately remove casualties after failing saves. Apparently people can work out how to use specific > general for FNP, but not for ES

The rule is NOT ambiguous

nosferatu1001 wrote:It inserts a step, in EXACTLY the same way that you roll FNP immediately after suffering a wound, yet you immediately remove casualties after failing saves. Apparently people can work out how to use specific > general for FNP, but not for ES

The rule is NOT ambiguous

Where does it say that it inserts a step? Are you getting this from the Nosferatu Journal?

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Dytalus wrote:They do. The Entropic Strike is an additional effect of a Scarab's attack, it does not replace the Scarab's attack. The only similar thing which comes to mind is a Thunder Hammer stunning someone. The stunning is an effect applied by the attack, it does not replace the attack.

Since ES is rolled as soon as you hit, it is rolled before armour penetration attempts. The Scarabs attack with Str 3, as a result of hitting they get to test for ES and apply the AV drop. Then they roll for armour penetration on the new AV with their Str 3.

What, in the writing, leads you to this conclusion? Do the rules specifically say "before armor penetration rolls are made"?

Let's face it: it's completely ambiguous. Since you roll for penetration "immediately" after rolling to hit anyway, the rule is essentially broken and, like everything that Ward touches, needs an FAQ.

I'm not sure how it's ambiguous. You apply the effects of Entropic Strike after hitting. Hitting comes before the roll to pen. Therefore you hit, resolve ES, then roll to pen - since you have permission to roll for penetration (you hit) and no rule stopping you from rolling to pen.

Nuggz - so, in your book FNP is also ambiguous? Or is the concept of specific vs general somehting youre unfamiliar with, and need some education on?

Yea seriously, it's not that complicated. You roll to hit, entropic strike is a special rule that goes with hitting, then roll for armor pen. Anyone that thinks it's ambiguous is just butthurt that it can ruin their mech armies. It's far from broken, allmost everything can kill scarabs with ease. they drop like flies(or scarabs?) in cc and pretty much every standard weapon can deny their armour. Honestly I don't see why this topic is still going.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nuggz - so, in your book FNP is also ambiguous? Or is the concept of specific vs general somehting youre unfamiliar with, and need some education on?

No education is needed. When I want to learn how to play, I read the rulebooks, not the Nosferatu Journal.

This has absolutely nothing to do with FNP, as FNP isn't applied in an instance where there is a subsequent roll required. Attacker rolls to hit and rolls to wound. Controlling player rolls to save and, if it is failed, rolls FNP. This has nothing to do with Entropic Strike, which essentially inserts a phase in between the normal rolling to hit and rolling for penetration. It gives you no indication when this occurs other than "immediately". It's poorly written and needs an FAQ. I'm not suggesting that it works any which way, only that it is poorly written.

Nope, youre still unable to read the actual rules it seems

OK, apparently the reference to "immediately" was lost on you there.

Can you get the fact both require a subsequent action to be take "immediately"? I know this is a stretch for you, but stick with it - both events (to-hit, unsaved wound) require something to be immediately applied afterwards

FNP, in order to work, must happen before this immediately action - inserting a step. Classic case of specific > general - unless youre still unsure on how the rules work, which you seem to be

Entropic Strike occurs immediately after a successful hit. This MUST occur immediately, as it is more specific than the rules for AP which are the same for EVERY model - do I need to explain why? - otherwise you have broken the ES rule. This it MUST occur before the roll for AP

So no, as long as you are the slightest bit aware of the way the rules are constructed this isnt ambiguous.

Oh, those references to the "nosferatu journal"? Mine says "BRB" - or were you trying to be funny, or insulting? Difficult to tell with you