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In your opinion, when is a full command viable?

Personally, I have one in every unit until it gets to a point when I cannot have full commands any more...

You don't always need them really. The only one that I would say every combat unit absolutely must have is a musician, swift reforms are just way too powerful to not take full advantage of them.

Champions are usually good, especially in mage bunkers- being able to pull someone across the unit out of base contact with the mage is very very useful.

I usually only have standard bearers if they're going to have a magic banner- but this is mainly for 2 reasons- first of all, I play mainly on the UK tournament circuit (or practice games) where the scenarios are pretty rare. Secondly, as a Dark Elf/Wood Elf player, if I put myself in a position in a combat where that single pip of combat res matters then I'm doing something wrong

If the plan is to fight head to head with anything with that unit, I would assume it needs at least a mus+standard bearer

Musicians are a must have on any unit, no exceptions (IMO). Considering they cost half the points of banners and champions, and all the bonuses they provide, it would be silly not to take one.

Banners are important to take, especially due to the 8th ed blood and glory mission (assuming you play rulebook missions normally). The +1 combat res is very nice as well. Take banners on large units, but don't bother with small units (for example with 5 empire Knights, I would just take a musician). Taking banners on small easy to kill units will give away free VPs for captured banners.


Champions are a nice bonus, but not always required. You can get away with just a banner and musician on most units. Take champions if the points are available, because they do have some benefits:

- Extra attack that can not be obtained otherwise (for example a unit of 50 in a horde will get the same attacks as a unit of 100 in a horde, but paying for the champion gives you a total of 31 attacks instead of 30.)

- Access to special wargear on the unit

- Take undesirable challenges when you have important characters in the unit.

- Sacrifice them to uber combat characters for a turn, soaking up wounds that would otherwise go on the unit

- Strong champions can sometimes kill weak characters, getting you the underdog VP bonus.

-

I also take full com if I can afford it as challenging out a uber character is so helpful

I always take full commands on any infantry unit larger than 15(sometimes 10 but not usually).

For cavalry a musician is the only thing worth taking unless you need a magic banner of some sort or want an extra attack and don't own another model to take instead.

For archers I only take a musician(then again in my HE I only run archers in units of 10 anyway).

Dark Elves Repeater Crossbowmen should always have shields and full command as they are the most survivable infantry that DE have access to.

Except for any unit with a Cauldron blessing?

If you're taking Xbows and they're becoming your most survivable combat unit, you're doing something wrong I'm afraid. Dark Elves are not supposed to win combats through a war of attrition, they should be winning combats by reducing the attacks coming back at them to such a low level that the opponent simply cannot do enough to damage.

I feel command is rarely worth the extra bodies that could be bought with the points. However there are a few units that benifit greatly from one or more command models.
Muso is crucial to any unit that has a tactical advantage to fleeing, such as any fast cav or small redirectors who's primary purpose is to flee/die to get an opponent out of position. Alternativly, large units also benifit from the ability to swift reform, and ensure that if your large/expensive block breaks, it will probably rally. Musician is the best value by far, and the first to be included IMO.
Banners should be on any unit that is going toe to toe with an opponents blocks: so never on sacrifical units or small supporting elite units, rarely on cavalry or monstrous infantry unless you are running a solid block of 9+, almost always on blocks of infantry that are forming your main lines.
Ranged champions (+1bs) are NEVER worth it.
Melée Champions (+1A) are in the same boat as banners, they add a little extra oompf when nothing else is available, and can heroicly challange to keep lords on monsters from wrecking your block/heros for a turn. Most units don't need one, as he is often as expensive as another rank and file... But if you have extra points and a unit has a banner/muso already, odds are a champ couldn't hurt.

Musician for everyone.
Standards for almost everyone. Yeah, I know my 16 dark elf crossbowmen aren't supposed to be in combat, and neither are my dark riders.

But what I've found is that by having the banner, it does give me a very solid edge against my opponents supporting units.
I don't need to shoot those 6 marauder cav; I can take them in melee. Instead I can keep plinking away at those chaos warriors. Without the banner, taking a charge from fast cav is a lot more risky.

At ~10 for the banner, and 25 more should I lose it, I'd say it does me as much good as harm. But it does look bitchen.

-Matt

tmarichards wrote:Except for any unit with a Cauldron blessing?

If you're taking Xbows and they're becoming your most survivable combat unit, you're doing something wrong I'm afraid. Dark Elves are not supposed to win combats through a war of attrition, they should be winning combats by reducing the attacks coming back at them to such a low level that the opponent simply cannot do enough to damage.

I meant most survivable as is, no buffs. I agree that Elves shouldn't try attrition as they just won't pull it off.

tmarichards wrote:Except for any unit with a Cauldron blessing?

If you're taking Xbows and they're becoming your most survivable combat unit, you're doing something wrong I'm afraid. Dark Elves are not supposed to win combats through a war of attrition, they should be winning combats by reducing the attacks coming back at them to such a low level that the opponent simply cannot do enough to damage.

What about crossbows with a cauldron blessing?

What he is referring to is the little detail that, while all DE infantry has a 5+ armor save, Xbows are unique in our book in getting a parry save as well. That means they save more wounds than any other infantry by themselves.

Sure, the cauldron ward is nice, but there are often more vulnerable targets that need it more. That Xbows can do without it just adds to their value.

Xbows with a Cauldron blessing have only a 5+ save and 5+ ward, so they actually lose their parry saves

To be honest, the biggest problem I find with xbows is not their combat prowess- they're great to run into a small expensive unit or flank with a cheeky Mindrazor, but the main reason that they are taken is for their shooting- and they just don't do it well enough. I've tried running 2x20, and then 2x10, and I now run around 12-14. The only reason they ever end up in my lists are because once I've got my warrior bunker and Corsair unit, I have around 120 points to fill before I reach my minimum core.

Xbows are best used as a flanking unit to help clear away chaff or pick away a few units here and there, but there are far far better ways to spend the points than on them. They're simply not good enough.

The reason their shooting is lackluster is because they really aren't a shooting unit. They are a close-combat unit with a strong secondary shooting function. After all, they have the exact same stats as spearmen and corsairs.

20-30 of them, with FC and shields, spend the first couple turns deployed wide to maximize firepower. They blow away any enemy maneuver control units that get too close (and if they don't get close, they aren't doing their job!), pick off warmachine-hunters and the like, or maybe shave a rank or two off an enemy block. THEN, they reform into 5-wide for maximum ranks and charge into the fray. Now they contribute ranks, a few kills, a second round of charge bonus, maybe even flank bonus and rank disruption, on top of killing a couple enemy models.

And their 5+/6++ on their own allows you to give the 5++ caludron ward to something else more expensive, like the 5+/- Black Guard or Corsairs.

DE don't win by smashing the other side force-on-force; they are too delicate for that. They win by maneuver and unit synergy.

I don't personally run any corsairs. I run 25 spears and 2 units of 20 RXB's as 10x2 until something gets close enough to charge then it's 5x4.

80 shots per turn is nothing to cry about, and I find that even 1 unit in smaller games is a decent threat against most average T units.

My VC's always run full commands on the infantry units simple because;
a) Champions allow my critial characters to avoid challenges. Then they can come back for more!
b) My sub-par & over-costed skeletons desperately need all the combat res they can get, plus I get cheapo magic banners!
c) Musicians are a must in 8th ed thanks to swift re-form.

Now, my special & rare units kinda depends. In smaller pts games where i need to scrimp & save on pts as much as possible to ensure I get everything I need, adding a musician to say a unit of grave guard who are already flanked to either side by skeletons isn't so mandetory. Or else if I'm running a unit of 6 black knights to go war machine hunting, I'll skip on the unit champ as that's already half the cost of the Banner of Hellish Vigor which keeps them from needing a 'vampire' babysitter...

Basically I feel that full command or not is more releated to unit's given task and the army it's from, rather than being a simple yes/no answer.

This question can only be answered on a unit by unit basis.


Chaos Warriors: Everyone gets taken. Champion for the extra attack, Musicion for the swift reform and win ties, Banner for the magic banner.

Chaos Knights: Musicion always, Banner for the magic banner, Champion only if I can afford it.

Ogre Bulls: Musicion and Banner always. Champion only if I have the points or have a character that needs to hide.

Ironguts: as above.

Mournfangs: Banner and Musicion always, never a champion. This ensures the banner(which is the Dragonhide banner) will be removed last so I keep its benifit longer.


On any largeish block of regular infantry you might as well go for Full Command, but on small blocks or on expensive units it is sometimes benificial to forgo the Champion.