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How is the humble Whirlwind in standard 40k and in Apocalypse? My friend owes me £110 on forgeworld in return for a 2k guard army. The WW Hyperios looks too cool. Either that our the Praetor Missile Launcher

I personally love them. MUCH more maneuverable than a Thunderfire, and for its points cost, almost always makes its points back or alters the enemy plan pretty well.

In Apoc, the ability to hit almost anywhere on the board with the targeting land speeder is great. Definitely worth the points in either game.

The Whirlwind isn't a bad tank per se, it's a cheap pie plate that you can stick behind some cover and go to town with. The Whirlwind's main issue is that it fills a role that most Space Marine armies don't really need filled (anti-horde). For that, you already have Tactical Squads (who usually don't have anything better to do), missile launcher spam, MM/HF speeders, drop podding dreads with HF, etc. For the same points I prefer the dakka predator, which isn't quite as strong against hordes (especially in cover), but can do double duty against light armor in a pinch. Generally, the Whirlwind will be worth every penny in a few uncommon matchups (horde Orks, foot IG, Tyranids) and close to useless in almost every other situation. I just can never seem to find space in my army list for a tool that is so situational.

I can't speak to the effectiveness of any Forge World variants, but you won't be guaranteed the ability to use Forge World models in every game you play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kustom wrote:I personally love them. MUCH more maneuverable than a Thunderfire, and for its points cost, almost always makes its points back or alters the enemy plan pretty well.

More maneuverable than a TFC? Technically, but neither can move and fire in the same turn. Ordnance weapons can move and fire, but not barrage weapons, and the WW can't fire directly. As a Space Marine player, if I see a WW across the table I don't alter my plans in the slightest because it's not that threatening to me. As I said, it's worth its weight in gold in some matchups, but will struggle against meched armies or MEQ (which form the vast majority of most metas).

Roboute wrote: As a Space Marine player, if I see a WW across the table I don't alter my plans in the slightest because it's not that threatening to me. As I said, it's worth its weight in gold in some matchups, but will struggle against meched armies or MEQ (which form the vast majority of most metas).

I got to say a single S5 Ap4 or S4 AP5 shot ain't that scary, and marines laugh at it. Has low S for artillery, short range for an artillery tank, can't be taken in squadrons to at least get some weight of fire. Considering this slot could be filled by a predator, vindicator, land raider, TFC or even dev's ( ) the whirlwind really doesn't bring enough firepower or durability to the slot.

Why do the coolest looking models always have to be inefficient... It's okay Defiler, Possessed, and Whirlwind, don't cry.

Justus wrote:Why do the coolest looking models always have to be inefficient... It's okay Defiler, Possessed, and Whirlwind, don't cry.

I though 3 defilers 3 dreads & 2 daemon princes and as many 'zerkers that you can fit in made for a fun fairly efficient list.

Jihallah wrote:

Roboute wrote: As a Space Marine player, if I see a WW across the table I don't alter my plans in the slightest because it's not that threatening to me. As I said, it's worth its weight in gold in some matchups, but will struggle against meched armies or MEQ (which form the vast majority of most metas).

I got to say a single S5 Ap4 or S4 AP5 shot ain't that scary, and marines laugh at it. Has low S for artillery, short range for an artillery tank, can't be taken in squadrons to at least get some weight of fire. Considering this slot could be filled by a predator, vindicator, land raider, TFC or even dev's ( ) the whirlwind really doesn't bring enough firepower or durability to the slot.

This is entirely true in regular 40k, hence you wouldn't take one.
But in Apocolypse you can just sit it at the back of the board and pie plate enemy infantry so i'd say worth it. But never in normal 40k.

It really suffers from problem common to all Codex: Space Marines HS options: they can't be had in squadrons.

GK can spam 6 Psyriflemen (3 regular 3 ven), BA can spam 6 Predators, and SW don't need Predators or Whirlwinds because they can spam cheap as dirt Long Fangs that are better than both. Codex: Space Marines simply can't do that in its current incarnation. Allowing Preds and Whirlwinds in squadrons would reflect the huge Ultrasmurf armory.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:It really suffers from problem common to all Codex: Space Marines HS options: they can't be had in squadrons.

GK can spam 6 Psyriflemen (3 regular 3 ven), BA can spam 6 Predators, and SW don't need Predators or Whirlwinds because they can spam cheap as dirt Long Fangs that are better than both. Codex: Space Marines simply can't do that in its current incarnation. Allowing Preds and Whirlwinds in squadrons would reflect the huge Ultrasmurf armory.

I am confused about what you are looking for?

Rifledreads can come in 6? Or you could take 3 rifledreads and three preds?

GK need some ranged attack so do not begrudge them their dreads.
BA have fairly expensive fast choice preds, 3 heavy fast dreads are great but stationary gun platforms would not be BA. Longfangs can not move, I am not doubting their abilities or awesomeness just saying having some infantry models that can not move is not for everyone and is not really comparable to rifledreads.

MFletch wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:It really suffers from problem common to all Codex: Space Marines HS options: they can't be had in squadrons.

GK can spam 6 Psyriflemen (3 regular 3 ven), BA can spam 6 Predators, and SW don't need Predators or Whirlwinds because they can spam cheap as dirt Long Fangs that are better than both. Codex: Space Marines simply can't do that in its current incarnation. Allowing Preds and Whirlwinds in squadrons would reflect the huge Ultrasmurf armory.

I am confused about what you are looking for?

Rifledreads can come in 6? Or you could take 3 rifledreads and three preds?

GK need some ranged attack so do not begrudge them their dreads.
BA have fairly expensive fast choice preds, 3 heavy fast dreads are great but stationary gun platforms would not be BA. Longfangs can not move, I am not doubting their abilities or awesomeness just saying having some infantry models that can not move is not for everyone and is not really comparable to rifledreads.

The first sentence and the last sentence pretty much spell it out for you.

Roboute wrote:More maneuverable than a TFC? Technically, but neither can move and fire in the same turn. Ordnance weapons can move and fire, but not barrage weapons, and the WW can't fire directly. As a Space Marine player, if I see a WW across the table I don't alter my plans in the slightest because it's not that threatening to me. As I said, it's worth its weight in gold in some matchups, but will struggle against meched armies or MEQ (which form the vast majority of most metas).

Who told you the Whirlwind can't fire directly?

Raxmei wrote:Who told you the Whirlwind can't fire directly?

Who told you that it can? It's listed as a Barrage weapon with a range of 12-48", and therefore uses the rules for Barrage weapons, which means it can't fire on the move. Why would you be able to fire it differently if the rules don't say you can? Look at the IG codex - in the ordnance section, you have Basilisks and Colossi, both of which are Barrage weapons. The Basilisk has a specific disclaimer saying you can fire it directly, in which case the 36" minimum range is ignored and the weapon is not a Barrage weapon. The Colossus has no such disclaimer, and thus cannot fire directly. Barrage weapons subtract the firer's BS when in LOS of the target, just like direct firing blasts, but that isn't the same as firing directly, they are still barrage weapons and therefore cannot move and fire in the same turn.

...not having a IG codex at hand and shaped net so I can't double check... Doesn't one of the tanks have a disclaimer saying it can't fire directly? I though barrage meant you could shoot it directly OR fire it as a barrage, with the slightly different scatter rules and ignoring cover?

I mean, a whirlwind is S5 ap4 and S4 AP5 ignoring cover. What is the point of the incendiary rounds that ignore cover...if it already ignores cover due to being a barrage weapon? So I might be wrong here, but can someone check that? It just doesn't make sense to me, that you'd lose both the AP and the Strength of a normal round that ignores cover so you could fire a round that...ignores cover?

So yeah, I'm pretty sure barrage can fire barrage or direct, unless it says you can't fire direct. Will double check this soonish.

Jihallah wrote:...not having a IG codex at hand and shaped net so I can't double check... Doesn't one of the tanks have a disclaimer saying it can't fire directly? I though barrage meant you could shoot it directly OR fire it as a barrage, with the slightly different scatter rules and ignoring cover?

I mean, a whirlwind is S5 ap4 and S4 AP5 ignoring cover. What is the point of the incendiary rounds that ignore cover...if it already ignores cover due to being a barrage weapon? So I might be wrong here, but can someone check that? It just doesn't make sense to me, that you'd lose both the AP and the Strength of a normal round that ignores cover so you could fire a round that...ignores cover?

So yeah, I'm pretty sure barrage can fire barrage or direct, unless it says you can't fire direct. Will double check this soonish.

Please do, as I don't have my codex on hand either and I could have switched the two up. That said, barrage rounds don't ignore cover, they just use the blast's center hole to determine cover rather than the LOS of the firer. Models in area terrain always get a cover save against barrage weapons. So the WW's incendiary rounds actually can be quite useful. That's also why the Colossus's niche is useful - AP 3 is a lot better when those MEQ's are never going to be getting cover saves, ever.

With regard to whether barrage weapons get the choice to fire directly, can an IG HWS with mortars fire directly? Because that would make no sense to me, and it's essentially the same situation. Regardless, I have neither the codex nor the rulebook at hand, so I might be completely off base there.

Its in the brb on pg 58 that if its an ordnance barrage weapon it can fire directly or indirectly. The distinction that was mentioned in the imperial guard codex was it said certain vehicles, CANNOT fire directly. So since the Whirlwind weapons are ordnance barrage then they can fire directly.

Roboute wrote:The Whirlwind isn't a bad tank per se, it's a cheap pie plate that you can stick behind some cover and go to town with. The Whirlwind's main issue is that it fills a role that most Space Marine armies don't really need filled (anti-horde). For that, you already have Tactical Squads (who usually don't have anything better to do), missile launcher spam, MM/HF speeders, drop podding dreads with HF, etc. For the same points I prefer the dakka predator, which isn't quite as strong against hordes (especially in cover), but can do double duty against light armor in a pinch. Generally, the Whirlwind will be worth every penny in a few uncommon matchups (horde Orks, foot IG, Tyranids) and close to useless in almost every other situation. I just can never seem to find space in my army list for a tool that is so situational.

Someone should really put this in a beginners guide or something. It sums up everything everyone has ever said about the WW.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Its in the brb on pg 58 that if its an ordnance barrage weapon it can fire directly or indirectly. The distinction that was mentioned in the imperial guard codex was it said certain vehicles, CANNOT fire directly. So since the Whirlwind weapons are ordnance barrage then they can fire directly.

I stand corrected then, with a penalty of -1 internetz.