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Okay - so reading the rules I see outriders are ktited with handguns, are fast cavalry but the handguns are move or fire - What in the world is the point of fielding fast cavalry if you can't move and shoot? Please tell me I'm missing something with outriders but I have consulted my BRB and there is nothing to indicate the outriders can move and fire.

I believe they can fire lots of shots each (like 5?) if they don't move.

That seems to be the case. It does seem pretty stupid at first.
I know FC can march and fire, but nothing that overrides the move or fire rule.

I guess its cause the handguns have 24" range?
So you move, park them at the enemy's flank, wait a turn, shoot, wait another turn, and park somewhere else.
They won't get charged, because they have to be seen first.

Two reasons.
1) Vanguard. You get a 12" move before the game starts. You start the game just within range and dumping out buckets of dice in firepower.
2) Quick escape. Because you can reform for free, if something threatens you that you can just shoot dead, you can try and slip around it with your 16" march. Yes, you lose a turn of shooting doing this, but it forces your opponent to either ignore you and get repeatedly shot, or just keep chasing, and get repeatedly shot by the rest of your army.

Point for point, handgunners and outriders dish out the same pain. Handgunners show up with a lot more wounds, making them more survivable vs magic/shooting.
Outriders have speed, making them more survivable in combat, due to the ability to avoid it.

Outriders aren't a unit that is effective alone. They have to be part of a larger plan, and supported.
If you castle up in one corner, try outriders along on the far other side, with a steam tank in between. If they move at your main force, you get to shoot all game long.
If they move at the outriders, the steam tank and intercept and deal out the pain. If things don't go well, just use their 16" move to get out of trouble and count the effect your opponent wasted as a benefit.

-Matt

My empire playing friend always uses 3 units of 5.

He deploys then behind his blocks of handgunners to use them as a sort of cover, since the riders are high up they can fire over the heads of the infantry.

It works alright most of the time, and it looks great! But if you're planning on moving your unit around I think pistoliers might be better, they can be extremely annoying of they get behind your units.

I think outriders are stuck in an either-or role. They can either
a) be fast cavalry, and dick with chaos warriors or combat orcs or certain dark elf builds, or they can b) camp somewhere and throw silly numbers of shots out. Pistoliers are more versatile but correspondingly a lot less effective at shooting. The pistol nerf (that they now take range penalties) is a really big deal to a bs3 multi-shotting human. A couple troops of outriders can decimate a unit, where the same number of pistoliers can probably just annoy it.

Malleus wrote:I think outriders are stuck in an either-or role. They can either
a) be fast cavalry, and dick with chaos warriors or combat orcs or certain dark elf builds, or they can b) camp somewhere and throw silly numbers of shots out. Pistoliers are more versatile but correspondingly a lot less effective at shooting. The pistol nerf (that they now take range penalties) is a really big deal to a bs3 multi-shotting human. A couple troops of outriders can decimate a unit, where the same number of pistoliers can probably just annoy it.

In my playing experience, the range penalty is not that much of a big deal. Pistols are march and fire with no penalty. I can happily shoot only once hitting on 5s if that means the opp has a choice to either ignore the pistoliers and start receiving double shots on 5s or disrupt his movement to face them.

They're fast cavalry, their role is to disrupt the enemy advance (and march block, they still have to check ld). The fact that they shoot S4 AP pistols is just a nice bonus, which comes in handy when they face other fast cav.

I generally don't think outriders are worth the price wrt similar point value of crossbows or handgunners (which are core to boot), whereas pistoliers perfectly fulfill a role nothing else in the empire armybook can.

I view Outriders as very similar to a chess piece. You move them to a place where they threaten your opponent's pieces and then your opponent has to decide whether he will adjust his plans or suffer the barrage of fire that follows.

The trick is getting them within short range where they can't be charged.

I do like the idea of placing outriders behind marksman to have a larger gun line - but they are expensive and to think for 5 outriders I can field another cannon or another mortar with points to spare :/

I think Flashman got it spot on, just the potential for outriders to be firing at close range into a unit will make most opponents divert everything and anything that could possibly destroy them towards the outriders.

Good for you, bad for the outriders!

Outriders come equipped with a brace of pistols in addition to their Repeater Handguns. So you can move them into place, fire some covering shots, and then next turn unleash your x3 repeater death salvo.

The army book doesnt mention the brace :( Just a hand weapon, repeater hand gun and light armor. The pistolers get a brace of pistols tho.

The biggest problem with outriders in my view is that they are very fragile. if a unit decides to fire at them or a spell goes their way, they are so toast.

polybus wrote:The biggest problem with outriders in my view is that they are very fragile. if a unit decides to fire at them or a spell goes their way, they are so toast.

If my opponent wants to waste a damage spell against 105 points worth of troops, so be it. 15 shots for 100 points is a good value.

I prefer pistoliers, they are more versatile because they are cheaper, far more agile and better in melee. Pistoliers dont melee often, but unlike many light horse they are effective when they do. This means not only are they good against warmachine crews, they can also outfight most light cavalry because of brace of pistols.

Outriders have greater range and fire volume, this is true, but ideally you want light cavalry in close, march blocking is a pivotal role, and if you really need to get a lot of shooting done Empire are not the arnmy to go without.

As far as pistoliers being better in melee, I cant see how. They get a hand weapon, no shield or spear at str 3. Goblin wolf riders are better at melee.

shickarl wrote:As far as pistoliers being better in melee, I cant see how. They get a hand weapon, no shield or spear at str 3. Goblin wolf riders are better at melee.

Pistoliers and Outriders each get 1 S3 attack in melee, and one from the horse. Pistoliers don't get the +1 for two weapons because they are mounted.

-Matt

Basically, they are a mobile unit of handgunners and not your traditional Fast Cavelry.

You move into position quickly and then unload with a bucket load of shots in the next turn. They have quite alot of damage output for their unit size and they have the same cost effectivness as a unit of Handgunners.


Its actually quite devestating if used properly.

Its a fairly cheap additional shooty unit that can run away really fast if needed.

Another thing to consider is that, while their average damage output is the same as their equivilant points in Handgunners, their potential damage is greater. BS4 cancels out the multi-shot penelty, no move and fire problem, so the only thing is range and cover. Cover shouldn't be an issue with proper setup. so the worst you can expect to hit on is 5s, 4s if you are within short range.

don't forget the outriders BS 4 compared to the BS3 of the pistoliers. With the fact you cant move and fire you only have to worry about long range and multiple shots(usually, I know there are things like the skaven storm banner but under basic conventional wisdom...) The 3 shots a piece plus the S4 AP makes the repeater handguns quite deadly. And hitting on 5's is not so bad. I played 40k orks long enough to know that it's a problem, but not a huge one. If you get on a flank in short range you can devastate enemy elites I think.

Basically outriders use their vanguard to move into a better position to stand firing for the rest of the game. This gives them a significant advantage over handgunners, who are generally unable to fire on the first turn, if the Empire goes first. Outriders are also quite likely to survive if they flee a charge, and quite quick to recover after they've fled. They're also a lot more compact than an equivalent volume of fire from handgunners.

On the other hand, you're paying a lot of points for each wound, and they're lightly armoured as well. This makes them very vulnerable to a spell or volley of fire from enemy missile troops, whereas a points equivalent block of handgunners has enough wounds that they're rarely targetted in such a way.

Malleus wrote:I think outriders are stuck in an either-or role. They can either
a) be fast cavalry, and dick with chaos warriors or combat orcs or certain dark elf builds, or they can b) camp somewhere and throw silly numbers of shots out. Pistoliers are more versatile but correspondingly a lot less effective at shooting. The pistol nerf (that they now take range penalties) is a really big deal to a bs3 multi-shotting human. A couple troops of outriders can decimate a unit, where the same number of pistoliers can probably just annoy it.

The range issue shouldn't impact Pistoliers too much. I mean, if you can't get 1" away on the flank, something is badly wrong.

Aerethan wrote:If my opponent wants to waste a damage spell against 105 points worth of troops, so be it. 15 shots for 100 points is a good value.

Low level magic missile spells will do neglible damage to any infantry or missile troop, but can decimate Outriders. Honestly, it'd be really weird if your opponent had a spell inflicting D6 Str 4 hits, and cast it against your halberdiers or crossbowmen, and not against your Outriders.

Orlanth wrote:I prefer pistoliers, they are more versatile because they are cheaper, far more agile and better in melee. Pistoliers dont melee often, but unlike many light horse they are effective when they do. This means not only are they good against warmachine crews, they can also outfight most light cavalry because of brace of pistols.

Outriders have greater range and fire volume, this is true, but ideally you want light cavalry in close, march blocking is a pivotal role, and if you really need to get a lot of shooting done Empire are not the arnmy to go without.

Cavalry with a brace of pistols don't count as having an extra hand weapon in close combat. Don't know why, but there it's under the rules for brace of pistols. It's an easy rule to miss, I played a few games before it was pointed out to me. As a result, with only one attack each and one for the horse, and the silly rules that limit the number of cavalry you can involve in the fight against war machines, I've found they generally struggle against the T7 of war machines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BossGrizznit wrote:don't forget the outriders BS 4 compared to the BS3 of the pistoliers. With the fact you cant move and fire you only have to worry about long range and multiple shots(usually, I know there are things like the skaven storm banner but under basic conventional wisdom...) The 3 shots a piece plus the S4 AP makes the repeater handguns quite deadly. And hitting on 5's is not so bad. I played 40k orks long enough to know that it's a problem, but not a huge one. If you get on a flank in short range you can devastate enemy elites I think.

Pistoliers and Outriders aren't in competition, they perform massively different roles. Pistoliers are there to get up in the face of the enemy, force enemy units to charge to draw them out of position (or slow them down), force the enemy to make checks to see if they can march, and run down broken enemy units before they can rally. Any damage Pistoliers do is a bonus.

On the other hand, Outriders pretty much sit still and blast away, they're primary role is as part of the gunline. In deciding if you want some of these guys, decide if you need more St4 AP shots, and if you do whether handgunners or outriders are the best option. Don't compare them to pistoliers.

Orlanth wrote:I prefer pistoliers, they are more versatile because they are cheaper, far more agile and better in melee. Pistoliers dont melee often, but unlike many light horse they are effective when they do. This means not only are they good against warmachine crews, they can also outfight most light cavalry because of brace of pistols.

Outriders have greater range and fire volume, this is true, but ideally you want light cavalry in close, march blocking is a pivotal role, and if you really need to get a lot of shooting done Empire are not the arnmy to go without.

Cavalry with a brace of pistols don't count as having an extra hand weapon in close combat. Don't know why, but there it's under the rules for brace of pistols. It's an easy rule to miss, I played a few games before it was pointed out to me. As a result, with only one attack each and one for the horse, and the silly rules that limit the number of cavalry you can involve in the fight against war machines, I've found they generally struggle against the T7 of war machines.

Orlanth wrote:Fortuneately you now only have to shoot the crew and they get soft cover. The cannon, so pistoliers are still good with only one attack, anythuing that can get there is good vs artillerists.
The bad news is when you thiunk of which army relies on artillery most of all.

I'm not sure what you mean. Shooting at war machines is T7...