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Here is my dilemma..

I run Shrike so i trade in "Combat Tactics" for "Fleet", the obvious thing to do is to take Assault Termies which I have and I can see the advantage of this. But hold on, Fleet, Relentless tactical terminators? This looks like a viable option giving me, a Cyclone (30pts more) and still 5 Stormbolters, and 3 PF's and a PW. I am tempted to take a tactical terminator unit of 5 with either a Cyclone or a HF.

Tac termies do not belong in a Shrike list, ever.

The main reason to take Shrike is for army wide Fleet. By taking Tac termies, you just undid the very reason for taking Shike, as those termies will now be shooting, not running.

In a Shrike list that has termies, you take pure TH/SS termies, and you either :
A: infiltrate them with Shrike and have fleeting Hamernators in your opponents face. or...
B: Put them in a LRC with a Nullzone libbly. This gives you a 12" move, a 3.9" disemark (due to the size of termie bases), a 1-6" run, and a 6"assault. This gives you almost a 28" threat range with Nullzone Hammernators.

The problem is that if you use their shooting ability then you are not taking advantage of fleet... And vice versa.

NO Shrike is a fast mover Termies are Slow and hold up everything else in order to have fun.

mwnciboo wrote:Here is my dilemma..
But hold on, Fleet, Relentless tactical terminators?

Go re-read fleet and relentless then come back and explain why it's a bad idea. I'll give you a hint, it has something to do with them being mutually exclusive.

-Myst

Personnally, I don't like Terminators as they can't run down opponents in HTH. Look at honor guard + librarian for hard hitting. Possibly add some infiltrating scouts to disrupt enemy fire plans. Add in some ironclads and go to town.

Mysticaria wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:Here is my dilemma..
But hold on, Fleet, Relentless tactical terminators?

Go re-read fleet and relentless then come back and explain why it's a bad idea. I'll give you a hint, it has something to do with them being mutually exclusive.

-Myst

Hold on a second, Fleet replaces Combat Tactics, Relentless allows them to move and fire heavy weapons and assault. However if they have Fleet for Combat tactics, i have the option of running, so move, run, assault or alternatively move, shoot, assault. This effectively means I have the option to fore-go shooting for a longer assault reach in a given turn, which means I may be in reach of Tank or weaker troop unit that my squad would be better off assaulting than shooting. This means Tactical termies have the option to move, shoot and assault to 6" or alternatively move 6", run D6 Assault 6", which actually more options than Assault termies. Do you follow my reasoning?

I see your logic, but in effect what you are doing is paying points for missiles (or other heavy weapons) that you aren't going to use. Shrike doesn't actually add anything here, and in fact he costs the unit some shooting. The only time Shrike is better than not having shrike is when you end your move 7-8" away from the enemy and are forced to run instead of shoot. Most times, tactical terminators want to shoot. They want to shoot, shoot, shoot, and then assault to mop up the enemy. They want to use rhinos and vindicators to prevent getting charged, and don't need fleet to make their charges when it finally comes time. Very very rare would be the case when you would ever want to fleet-assault instead of shoot-assault.... maybe against an ironclad dread, land raider that got immobalized, or something like that???

This is a link to another forum but maybe it will help: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=229230&st=0&start=0

-Myst

Eh...I see what you're saying but you're optioning in favor of a Storm Bolter and away from the use of a Thunder Hammer. Very meh tradeoff...

How about....
Shrike 195
Lib in termy armour(with gate)140
10 assault termies 400
5 shooty termies with assault cannon 230
10 scouts with Telion 200
5 sniper scouts 90
command squad with stuff in drop pod 250
for just over 1500pts.

No, I wouldn't infiltrate with shooty termies. Dev. squads I would consider however.

Why would you pay a ton of points for shooting power and sacrifice a 3++ when you are ALSO paying a ton of points to run INSTEAD of shooting?

Wow.....Thats alot of CC. I like it, i am running Iron Clads, jump pack assault squads and Tac squads in Drop pods.

Two CC characters is alot of points, maybe a Chaplain instead as the Libby gets no inv. Not many troops, but i actually like the non-meta fluffy list, I hate "insert name" here lists, like DoA or SW Thunderwolf lists.

@ph34r last time I checked a SS couldn't fire a pair of Frag or Krak missiles, or a Flamer Template, or 4 x Rending shots. 3+ inv is great, but it depends on the situation, if 40k was a simple formula there would be no point fighting. I am specifically trying to find more options with my squads, Hammernators are great at what they do "Smash stuff" but I have found when using them it would be useful if I could on occassion shoot, especially against fast moving skimmers etc, that avoid CC and annihilate my squad with weight of fire. It's this flexibility, that appeals, they can put out some hurt with PF's and HEavy Weapons and Assault weapons like Storm Bolters. They are not as good as Hammernators at assault, but they are better in other respects. The 3+ inv is the only thing that keeps me looking back towards Assault termies. decisions decisions...

MFletch wrote:How about....
Shrike 195
Lib in termy armour(with gate)140
10 assault termies 400
5 shooty termies with assault cannon 230
10 scouts with Telion 200
5 sniper scouts 90
command squad with stuff in drop pod 250
for just over 1500pts.

No, I wouldn't infiltrate with shooty termies. Dev. squads I would consider however.

Horrible list...I usually don't use that word, but it is ...horrible.

You have 1 assault cannon for anti-tank duties. ONE! And, you have no other AT ranged weapons.
You will never be able to beat a mech list without a lot more ranged anti tank, or fast CC units. Even with fleet and gate you will not catch them, since Gate is DSing and you can't assault after DS.

Even if you fill out the list with more support at higher lvls, Tac Termies never belong in a Shrike list, and command sqauds are horrbile for Shrike...espcially in a a pod where they drop in and die. Much better to drop in MM Dreads to negate transports/tanks turn one making it easier for all of the CC in a Shrike list to engage the enemy.

Scouts, TH/SS Termies, Scout Bikes, Assault Squads, (maybe podding dreads), backed up by some ranged firepower is the way to go with Shrike. You want units that can take advantage of Fleet and/or that bring lots of alpha-strike and first turn assault capability, otherwise you are wasting Shrike and should be using another HQ.