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Hey everybody, I am looking at starting guard (just finished reading the Guants Ghosts omnibus's and am stoked on IG). I was thinking of making the Fortis Binars third and wanted to make a Hammer list. Lots of infantry with almost as much artillery support. Here's the list that I was thinking, suggestions for the list and tactics welcome. I know the Guard are not the most competitive race in a galaxy filled with matt ward minions. But I want to make these guys as competitive as possible, while still making them fun to play. So any ways...

Please repost your list without the points value of individual models, wargear, etc. Thanks! ~Manchu

So pretty much my strategy would be to advance on objectives with support from lascannons, mortars, Basilisks and snipers. Once at the objective I would gun line any one advanceing. Either that or just overwhelm them with masses of infantry and Pound them with artillery. I have a lost of meltas to deal with Armor and MEQ . I think this is good because I can out horde horde's, have enough anti tank to take out tank forces and can overwhelm MEQ . Things I was thinking of are getting rid of all those vox's as that would save me a lot of points. Suggestions are welcome because I have never played Guard and in fact have never played against Guard. Thanks,

I believe that you are not supposed to post individual but total costs of your units.

It looks pretty solid to me.

To be honest, I think you can do better. With 1 HQ, you're kind of wasting points taking ANY voxes. I used to use them all the time, but the reroll isn't worth it on LD8, and you can't take them where you actually need them: HWS. Beyond that, their utility just really isn't worth the investment.

Moving on, how are you blobbing these squads? I assume you're not running each one as a separate 10 man squad, right? If you're blobbing them, you NEED Commissars. Full stop. End of story. Without LD9 and stubborn, I won't be able to take it seriously.

Next up: You're wasting the only BS4 you have in the army by not filling it up with special weapons. What's the CCS going to be doing? Is it following the horde up to objective points or is it sitting back babysitting the HWS? If it's babysitting, it needs a standard and a heavy weapon (and _maybe_ a melta, just in case something gets too close).

You have a lot of flamers. Honestly, I find them not very useful in footslogging IG. By the time you get close enough to flame something, it's probably assaulted through to you. My advice is to lose the SWS with melta and put them on your infantry squads. SWS will run the first time they take wounds. Take some Grenade Launchers on your PCS. Have the PCS stand behind your men firing the 24" guns over their heads.

I'd lose the snipers also. The best sniper in the IG army is the Ratling, and they're pretty bad even still. Snipers and Mortars don't make sense in the same squad, as they perform different roles anyway.

Also, my above comment about confusing roles applies to the basilisks. Lose the stubbers from them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Between the Stubbers and the Vox Casters, you can save 90 points. If you pick up Jerran Kell, you will have a Company Standard and all of your LD checks made from the CCS (so, all of your BID orders to Lascannon HWS) will be made at LD 9. As many HWS as you're using, he's probably worth it for once.

What point value is this at?

OK so i drop the stubbers, drop all the vox's (I thought they extended the range of command but they dont which IMHO does not make any sense), drop the snipers in the platoon command and the SWS w/ snipers. That frees up 150 points. What exactly is blobbing? Also I will keep the two flamers because it's only 2 and they can be very effective in the right situation I have learned. Although that right situation is uncommon I think that for only five points each its worth it. Packing all these melta's will really take out tanks, especially with one mobile anti tank squad. IMHO melta's are the best anti tank weapon because not only are they not heavy weapons like lascannons but they also are incredible if you can get within 6'' which isn't too much of a hassle if I'm playing Jungle or Urban, both of which there will be a lot of in an upcoming campaign. But if you have any resolute opinions on the stuff I am keeping feel free to comment. Also what should I spend that last 155 points on? Thanks for the helpful suggestions, Its really helpful.

Read the first post stickied up there by Dakka Dakka please, then change your post. No one wants to see Dakka Dakka get in trouble or shut down.


First off, your list is illegal. Your second PCS has a HWT, 2x Special weapons and a Vox. Your also 1550pts instead of 1500pts (going off of your listed totals from each group).

Otherwise, welcome to IG. IG /is/ really competitive and can win with multiple lists. There are some general rules/guidelines to follow that will make them more effective. This involves proper special weapon and heavy weapon selection for the role of the unit and it's BS. This will help make your units more effective and give you the versitility you need as a all-comers list. You can take other things, but remember that your either limiting yourself, your taking it for a certain role, or as a fluff choice. There are other choices that you can make to make your list more effective based on what you want to do.

You have alot of PIS, why not 'blob' them up with the combine unit rules? This means you only need to get a single Vox for it and can get one Commissar to give your blob Stubborn. You then need to properly kit out your blob and should take power weapons, melta bombs, and the same special weapon (I suggest melta guns). For a defensive blob, HWTs give them long range fire power.

Since you appear to want to do alot of Orders (hence the voxs and what not), get Creed in your CCS and get a Lord Commissar for your heavy weapon squads. Read the Lord Commissar's 'Aura of Discipline', then place at least one HWT of a HWS within 6" of him to give the whole squad his benifit.

For a all-comers list, there really are only two heavy weapon selections, ACs and LCs.
Lascannons are your most reliable source of AV 12+ AT that you have. If there is a AV 13-14 vehicle on the board, this is what the LCs fire on, then go down from there.
Autocannons can be used on AV 12 or less vehicles. And if there are none, you use them for infantry or MCs. This weapon has two shotsw and is Str 7, meaning if you do hit, your probably going to wound. Against power armor, your banking on mass fire and them failing to make saves. Everything else is either strictly anti-infantry (Mortars and heavy bolters) or just to expensive for a single shot at effectivily the same targets the AC is firing at (ML).

I feel there are better choices than Basilisks for artillery but lucky for you this is more a matter of opinion. Take a long hard look at the Manticore and the Colossus. You also have to keep in mind that if you direct fire the Basilisks (or some of the other artillery) on how fragile they are. This will come down to you as a player on how to fire your artillery(direct or indirect).

If you clean up your list to Dakka Dakka rules, I will help you further. But you probably have to change your list anyways and you should re-post it to make it legal and to have the right number of points in it. If you make some of the changes I already mentioned, you will have to lose stuff to pay for it already.

Keep the flamer then, if you're comfortable with them. A lot of times the stuff you bring is only good if you're comfortable enough with it to know how to use it properly. For the infantry 'blobs', check under the entry in the IG codex for Infantry Squads. I can't remember the page number exactly. Basically in a nutshell, you can take each of those 10-man squads and combine them within the platoon you buy them for to make a larger squad. You can only do that with the 10-man squads though.

So for example, in your first Platoon, you could have the following:

Two 10-man squads with a flamer each, and two 10-man squads with a melta each.
A 20-man squad with two flamers (and two sergeants) and a 20-man squad with two meltas (and two sergeants).
A 40-man squad with two flamers, two meltas (and four sergeants)

You could also combine them in any other way, including 30 in one and 10 in another, or combining the weapons so that you have flamers and meltas together, but I went with the two most obvious choices. This allows you to essentially make the special weapons and the sergeants harder to get to, and helps limit kill points. If you go this route though, it's advisable to pick up a commissar, as that's a lot of men to lose to a bad leadership roll.

I assume from your not knowing about blobbing, that your relatively new to the game? If so, you should check out some of the other IG tactica.

Short bit on foot heavy armies:
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/404750.page

My own enfeebled attempt at sparking an intelligent collaborative Tactica.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/396245.page

This site belongs to Ailaros, one of the members here who does a pretty decent foot guard. You should check out his battle reports and army lists for some more pointers.
http://www.ailarian.com/folera/index.html


As far as what to take with the remaining points, if you DO decide you're going to combine any of the squads, I'd drop in a couple commissars. I'd also consider a few blobs with power weapons on the sergeants and the commissars as well. Have them try to catch the brunt of the enemy counterassault as you're crossing the table, hopefully take out a handful of guys on their own, and then have your guys run in with their flamers/meltas and clean house. At any rate, you should clean up the list (and take the point values off) implement some of your changes and then repost, and we can weigh in further.

ok, thanks for that i didn't know that it was a bad list (in terms of dakka dakka rules). If you read my later posts you will notice that I'm dropping all the vox casters. Ill fix it once I re-post the list. Now, what exactly is blobbing? I could not find it in the Codex, although I didn't look very hard. I want to keep the mortars as the entire point of this is artillery softening up the enemy, hopefully pinning them, while the infantry moves into range. But if they really suck then I can drop them. ACs are a tough one for me. I really like, fluff wise, the idea of hard slug heavy machine guns but I dont know if it will work competitively with the artillery list. They dont really go with AT or AI. Its kind of a choice between LC or HB, and the AC is the inbetweener (which by the way is a great show). Back to 40k, I am finding all these suggestions helpful and will revise the list soon.

Blobbing is when you take all those large squads of infantry and combine them into one big unit. I agree, Inbetweener is great, and so are Autocannons. Vox's are mostly useless, but I see you are changing...might be useful if you had Creed.

Is blobbing an official rule or is it just a tactic?


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nvm i didn't notice that theres a post that already explain it, thanks for not raging at my derp guys...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ya ill blob when I re-post, give me about ten minutes

There should be a rule in the Imperial Guard codex under the listing for the Infantry Platoon that tells you how to do it. I don't have my copy in front of me unfortunately. It's essentially: When the game begins, you may choose to combine all your infantry squads in an infantry platoon into one massive unit.

pg 37 IG Codex under the 'Combined squad' special rule.

Note you can /only/ do this with Platoon Infantry Squads, as they are the only unit with this special rule. /ALOT/ of people screw this up and add in their PCSs or other units.

HQ
Company Command-50

Troops

1st Platoon-340
Platoon Command-45
-flamer
Infantry Squad-55
-flamer
Infantry Squad-55
-flamer
Infantry Squad-60
-melta
Infantry Squad-60
-melta
Special Weapons Squad-65
-3x melta

2nd Platoon-335
Platoon Command-35
-mortar
Heavy Weapons-60
-mortar's
Heavy Weapons-60
-mortar's
Heavy Weapons-60
-mortar's
Infantry Squad-60
-melta
Infantry Squad-60
-melta

3rd Platoon-320
Platoon Command-50
-las cannon
Heavy Weapons-75
-lascannon
Heavy Weapons-75
-lascannon
Infantry Squad-60
-melta
Infantry Squad-60
-melta

Heavy Support

Basilisk Battery-375
Basilisk-125
Basilisk-125
Basilisk-125

So now my total is 1420. I could get two commisar's and still have 10 points left over. Suggestions on what units too blob, where to stick those commisar's (or whatever else I should spend the 80 points on), if there is anything else I should take/switch out and what tactics I should use (I dont actually know if we are allowed to discuss that here and I really hope that I dont need to start a new topic). I was thinking I should spend some dough on the company command but whatever will make this competitive while still having it fun. There maybe some errors because I literally copy and pasted the old list and edited it.

I'm drinking and about to minecraft for a while. I'll take a look at it tomorrow.

lol k thanks. I love me some minecraft! But anyways, thanks everybody for the help.

you still need to edit your first post to remove the individual point costs.

as far as the extra points, as much as the internet hates snipers I would rather see the BS4 of the CCS go to something rather then lasguns.

I would also recomend keeping your basilisks seperate so they can hit seperate targets if you need.

Okay, so, a complete breakdown:

andtheyshallknownofear wrote:HQ
Company Command-50

You really need to do something with this. These guys shouldn' t just be a necessary tax. They have BS4, which is huge, and any option you could want in the book. Give them a standard and a lascannon. They will sit with your HWS and help keep them from running when they get shot at.

Alternatively, if you want them in the fray, give them camo cloaks and 3 plasma guns (one guy is for an ablative wound). They will have a 3+ cover save while they hide in the middle of your horde. Much more expensive, but on the other hand, plasma is pretty awesome and you don't have any other sources of it.

Troops

1st Platoon-340
Platoon Command-45
-flamer x3
Infantry Squad-55
-flamer
Infantry Squad-55
-flamer
Infantry Squad-60
-melta
Infantry Squad-60
-melta

I recommend you drop the special weapons squad. Sorry, but they're terrible. Really. If you're going to go that route, try a Vet squad. They're about 35 points more expensive, but always worth it.

2nd Platoon-335
Platoon Command-35
-mortar
Heavy Weapons-60
-mortar's
Heavy Weapons-60
-mortar's
Heavy Weapons-60
-mortar's
Infantry Squad-60
-melta
Infantry Squad-60
-melta

I think you're overextending yourself on mortars here. I'd cut back to a squad or two of mortars and then probably put something else in the PCS to allow them to be a bit more mobile. Maybe use the extra points for more lascannons.

3rd Platoon-320
Platoon Command-50
-las cannon
Heavy Weapons-75
-lascannon
Heavy Weapons-75
-lascannon
Infantry Squad-60
-melta
Infantry Squad-60
-melta

Other than the lack of commissars, I see no major problem here other than that your points for the heavy weapons squad seems to imply that you're only taking one lascannon. You should be taking three, which will make them come to about 105 points each. Sadly, being awesome is pricy.

Heavy Support

Basilisk Battery-375
Basilisk-125
Basilisk-125
Basilisk-125

Break these up into separate units. Basilisks are one of the few vehicles it does make sense to squadron, but I wouldn't ever squadron more than 2 of them in one squad, and even then, that's only when I'm tank spamming. Breaking them up here should be fine. I'm one of the few who think Basilisks are a fine choice by the way. By all means look at the Medusa, but remember that the Medusa is direct fire only, while the Basilisk doesn't need LOS to things outside it's minimum range, and can still direct fire at things within the minimum range.

So now my total is 1420. I could get two commisar's and still have 10 points left over. Suggestions on what units too blob, where to stick those commisar's (or whatever else I should spend the 80 points on), if there is anything else I should take/switch out and what tactics I should use (I dont actually know if we are allowed to discuss that here and I really hope that I dont need to start a new topic). I was thinking I should spend some dough on the company command but whatever will make this competitive while still having it fun. There maybe some errors because I literally copy and pasted the old list and edited it.

Well, lets see what your list has now, and lets see what it could have. Right now, you have the following:

- 5 man command squad
- 5 man 3 flamer squad
- 20 man 2 flamer squad
- 20 man 2 melta squad x 3
- 5 man 1 mortar squad
- 3 mortars squad x 3
- 5 man 1 lascannon squad
- 1 lascannon squad x 2
- S9 large blast x 3
- Knowledge that half your army will run the moment it takes casualties from shooting, while the other half will lose in melee.

I don't usually play all-foot guard, but here's how I would do it if I was playing your list. Let me know if any of my shorthand doesn't quite make sense. I will justify each choice I make with why I think it makes what you're trying to do more solid.

CCS
- Color Sergeant Kell
- Lascannon

CCS
- 4 Plasma Guns
- Plasma Pistol
- Camo Cloaks

Bring two Command Squads. You put the first in the middle of your lascannon/mortar squads. He issues "Bring it Down" orders to your lascannons at LD9 (83% chance) instead of LD7 (58% chance). He also brings along a company standard, which allows you to reroll the morale on the lascannon squads (also essential). Plus, you get a single BS4 lascannon to fire. What's not to love?

The second one advances with the majority of your army. They should stay in the middle of the horde to claim cover saves from intervening models, and the camo cloaks give them 3+ instead of 4+. Their job is to counter "Deathstar" units like terminators, and also to help deal with Monstrous Creatures. They can try for a lucky shot on vehicle armor also, if you're desperate for one. Finally, they can issue "Bring it Down" and "Fire on my Target" to your horde, improving their odds of killing stuff with all those fancy meltas. With only 5 bodies, loaded up with weapons that scary, they're probably going to be a hot target, so don't be afraid to have them go to ground for a turn if it means they live long enough to cause damage.


Infantry Platoons
PCS
- 3 Flamers
Infantry Squad
- Commissar with Power Weapon
- Flamer
Infantry Squad
- Flamer
Infantry Squad
- Commissar with Power Weapon
- Meltagun
Infantry Squad
- Meltagun


So this you're going to divide up into a 20 man squad with flamers (and commissar) and a 20 man squad with meltas (and commissar). The power weapons are there only because I feel with this much IG horde, you're not going to be able to avoid getting into melee, and it would be nice to take out at least one or two of the enemy units before you get cut up. Even so, be prepared to lose every fight you get involved in during the assault phase. That's just how it goes. The commissars are also essential because they give you stubborn, allow a morale reroll, and make you LD9. Each one of those things can let you tarpit enemy squads until you're ready to deal with them, they make you harder to break from shooting, and they make your orders have a better chance of going off. In case you're not aware of how tarpitting works, I've cut and pasted my thoughts at the very bottom of this post.


Infantry Platoon
PCS
Infantry Squad
- Commissar with Power Weapon
- Meltagun
Infantry Squad
- Meltagun
HWS
- Mortars x 3
HWS
- Lascannons x 3
HWS
- Lascannons x 3


So this is more of the same from a Infantry Squad point of view. The PCS is really only there for orders, specifically "Move Move Move", and "First Rank Fire". If you can get him on an objective and have him continually go to ground to protect it, well, that would work out well for you also. The mortars and lascannons work just like you'd normally use them, except there are more lascannons and less mortars.

Basilisk
Basilisk
Basilisk


Keep these separate and try to hide them behind things as much as possible. You don't have a lot of tanks, so these are going to be a high priority target for the enemy anti-tank.


So that's about it. I realize this gives you a few less men than your original concept, however, I tried to preserve the theme of the list as much as possible. The most important thing I think that this does over your other list though is that it makes things depending upon leadership much more likely to swing in your favor.


As promised, a bit on Tarpitting. The powerblob mentioned in there is a blob of guardsmen armed with 3-4 powerweapons. It's remarkably good at killing regular marines in melee combat.

daedalus wrote:
Tarpitting: The man reason why the powerblob works is because of it's ability to tarpit. If you have 30 guys + commissar, and you're fighting a 10 man marine squad, and you're losing 5 guys at a time while your opponent is only losing 3 at a time, then you're losing combat, however, you'll still beat him in the end, because you wipe him out in 3-4 turns, while he wipes you out in 5-6. The question is, what do you do when it goes wrong?

The answer is to picture the commissar as the plug to the drain of the big tarpit that the enemy is trapped in. Say you can't win the fight, and you see it coming. They're wiping out 7-8 of your guys and you're cleaning up 1-2. You can't keep up. The best thing to do is to take your commissar as a casualty during THEIR assault phase. That's right, you heard me. Lose the commissar. You want that squad to fall apart. Let your sargeants get their hits in, and then let the squad break. Once they do, it will end the opponent's assault phase, and then it's your turn. Suddenly they squad is no longer protected by being in assault and then you can open up on it! This should allow you to engage enemies on your terms, and even when things aren't going your way, you should be able to still cope with them at your leisure, which is really how you win this game: Make the enemy play 40k with you; not the other way around.

Let me know if you have any questions. I'd also like to know how your next game goes if you use anything similar to this.

Alright that is so incredibly helpful. Thanks so much for actually keeping the old list in tact. I may drop one squad of LC and replace with mortars just because I have a lot of anti tank with all these melta's and the mortars will be useful pinning. But other then that this is great. Im not on my computer (im on my dad's right now) so when I get home I will revise the list (if I'm not too busy playing minecraft or tf2). But any way's that is great. So I'll think about this on the drive because I will want to have some squads assigned to specific roles such as gun line and others as "tar blobs" or whatever (that was a good analogy BTW).

Well Daedalus, not bad, except you made a few mistakes. Probably just do to inexperience to foot.

He never listed he had SWSs, that was his PCS squad and normal PIS squads.

It is difficult to 'hide' units inside of larger units due to the rules of moving figs. Figs can not pass through other fig's bases, nor through a gap smaller than their base. when they move they have to maintain unit coherancy and you are not allowed to move more than one unit at a time. It is possible to do what you suggest, but it is very difficult and complex, specially for a new player. So Camo Cloaks are probably best used for a static unit in terrain.

Daedalus's 'tarpit' use of blobs is an actual waste of them, IMO. Yes, this is what you do with something if you want to throw it away, but a properly kitted out blob can take out anything but T 7+ MCs in CC, and that is something you shoot the heck out of. A properly kitted out blob is a Commissar, power weapons for the Commissar and Sergeants, and melta bombs for the sergeants. Every special weapon should be a melta gun, because a melta gun can effect nearly anything in the game (besides the Eldar Avatar).

Do not mistake the melta guns and the few LC HWSs as 'enough' AT for this list. You have possible 3 turns before your melta guns might be in range to take out armor, at least 2 if they are attacking as well. During that time you have /two/ units that are effective at taking out armor and nothing against tansports as you don't have a single AC. Your Basilisks are scatterable artillery (so only hit 1/3 of the time) and are incredibly unreliable, specially for a list that wants to get in close combat. I hate to say it, but the only thing the Basilisks have a shot at are units that are sitting back doing the same thing, but they are probably in cover and your probably firing indirect. That is not a 'win win' situation for you, as your own list nearly makes your basilisks worthless.

Just remember that your sacrificing something to have your Basilisks and your Mortars. This is weakening your list, but as long as you understand this, you can try to make it work. There is a fine line between quanty and quality.

Here is a pure gunline list based off of your list. Fewer troops, but those troops are more effective.

CCS - 150pts
LC, 2x Plasma guns, Camo Cloaks, OotF

Lord Commissar - 80pts
Camo Cloak

PCS - 50pts
AC, 2x Sniper Rifles

PIS - 130pts (blob 1)
Commissar, 2x PW, Melta gun, Melta Bomb, AC

PIS - 85pts (blob 1)
PW, Melta gun, Melta Bomb, AC

LC HWS - 105pts
3x LCs

Mortar HWS - 60pts
3x Mortars

PCS - 50pts
AC, 2x Sniper Rifles

PIS - 130pts (blob 2)
Commissar, 2x PW, Melta gun, Melta Bomb, AC

PIS - 85pts (blob 2)
PW, Melta gun, Melta Bomb, AC

LC HWS - 105pts
3x LCs

Mortar HWS - 60pts
3x Mortars

Manticore - 160pts

Basilisk - 125pts

Basilisk - 125pts

1500pts

If you want, you can drop the 4 ACs in the PIS down to 3 Mortars, drop the Manticore and get a Mortar HWS and your 3rd Basilisk.
The PCS are anti-MC units, the ACs allow them to be transport poppers second and anti-troop units later. The blobs give you further AC firepower that you kinda desperatily need and then you have your Mortars and your desperatily needed LC HWSs. You don't attack with this list, as you sit back and shoot, defending your artillery. I had to drop the 3rd Platoon to make your other platoons useful and stay under 1500pts. Place the Lord Commissar within cover and your HWSs within 6" of him (at least one base has to be within that 6" circle). Read the Commissar's 'Aura of Discipline', as that is what is now making your HWSs Ld 10 for Orders, Morale, and pinning tests. Have your CCS within 12" of your LC HWSs and issue 'Bring it Down!' to them to make them twin linked for Vehicles and MCs. You can also issue this Order to your blobs, as their Commissar makes them Ld 9. Make sure you read the Order rules carefully.

Good luck.