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Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

In the spirit of Hulksmash's amazing Tyranid thread, I would like to try to clumsily create a 'one stop shop' for Imperial Guard. Those of you unfamiliar with it can find it here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/319613.page. I can't do this alone though. The codex is just too big for one person to be well versed in every permutation of every option. I encourage everyone to post their own observations, experiences, tactical choices, mistakes, and achievements, but the only thing I ask is that you please back it up with explanation. Saying, "Eradicators are the best vehicle in the game!" is well and fine, (really, I'll let it slide ) but please, back it up with something explaining what's made you feel that way, otherwise it lacks context and is useless to the exercise at hand. Personally, I think the game has enough chaos and situational circumstance in it that there isn't any real WRONG statement concerning unit effectiveness. That's right, there's no WRONG answer. There are circumstances that Eradicators are useful. There's circumstances that Ogryn are useful. It might not be every time, but they will prove useful in at least certain circumstances, and I don't want that falling in the cracks of the conversation. On the other hand, if anyone IS wrong about something, feel free to point it out, but explain why, otherwise it's just trolling.

So, now that I'm done with my wordy preamble, on to the start of things. I'm going to break down the Codex in a unit by unit analysis. Some things I have more experience with than others, but I will talk of what I have seen and let others fill in the gaps.

A few words on Powerblobs and Tarpitting: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/396245.page#3312775

Assaulting with IG ICs: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/396245.page#3317380

-- Start of Unit Review --

HQs:

Company Command Squad: In a nutshell, amazing. For the cost of an infantry squad, you get a 5 man BS4 squad, a model with an invul save and 4 attacks at WS4, and the ability to take about any upgrade in the book. The major ways I've seen them run personally include "the special weapon build" and the "gunline support build".

The Special Weapon build usually consists of 4 plasma or 4 melta run in a Chimera. I like to give the commander a power weapon for when they're inevitably forced from their ride, but that is somewhat of a guilty pleasure. I started doing it when I noticed that most marine players like to charge the squad after blowing up their transport, so I thought I would just take a couple down with me.

The Gunline Support build typically involves a standard, and a heavy weapon (generally lascannon). The general idea here is that they stay back with heavy weapon squads to help anchor them from failing woeful LD7 checks. As you will get 7 or below on 2d6 more often than you will not, the reroll from the standard gives you reasonable expectation that you will pass. This is about the only way I can advocate running heavy weapon squads, as they're too easy to run off. This also leaves you in a convenient place to use BiD and FomT, which heavy weapon squads benefit from immensely.

I've never had luck with Straken, and Creed/Kell to me seem like a natural extension of the Gunline build mentioned above. If someone else could comment on how to use them effectively, I'd appreciate it.

Concerning Advisors, I recommend that if you have two or more units depending upon a reserve roll, you should take an astropath. You should also take one if you have something depending upon outflanking on to the correct side (like Al'rahem). I do not like the OooF. I feel like 40k rewards you for being the person to have reserves come in at the same time, so I would not want to pay points for something that increases the odds of my opponent getting that advantage. I also do not like the MoO. Though he's only 30 points, his inaccuracy is a major concern, and the inability to fire on the move makes him inappropriate for the Special Weapon Build. I might be able to rationalize him for Gunline Support though.

KestrelM1 offers the following on upgrades for this squad:
1. The Regimental Standard
- I find there are a lot of people who don't like Leadership insurance, especially one that competes for a BS4 special weapon slot, and isn't exactly cheap. All I can say is that my experience has proven the Standard invaluable, as it saves at least one squad from failure virtually every game. If you're playing Mech Guard you will be making LD8 and LD7 checks constantly. Every Destroyed - Explodes! result is more likely than not going to force both a Pinning and Morale check, and failure on either one can effectively take the squad out of the fight for an entire turn. Get Back in the Fight! can mitigate this somewhat, but rolling on the aforementioned LD8/7 is hardly consistent, and those orders could be much better spent on the highly effective Bring it Down! or Fire on my Target! instead. Re-rollable Morale goes an incredibly long way to ensuring that your squads are dangerous down to the very last (LD7) man. It's a piece of wargear that simply WILL make an impact in every game you play.

2. The Astropath
- This depends somewhat on your army composition, but if any significant portion of your army is able to fire after moving onto the board (i.e. virtually any mech army), then the Astropath gives you an incredibly powerful option: the ability to Full Reserve with far fewer of the associated risks. Facing Drop Pod spam? Simply reserve your army, let the drop pods waste their effort coming down with no targets, then roll on the board and clean up. Facing a shooty army and going 2nd? Reserve your force and retain your alpha strike capability by denying the enemy's ability to suppress your units, or simply retain the ability to pop smoke when rolling on the board. Outflank with incredible accuracy to punish your opponent for deploying in the corners of the board. Even if you never make a single reserve or outflank roll, simply having an Astropath in your army list significantly improves your deployment and tactical options, and that's 30 points well spent. I personally use him in a Straken HQ where his 2A (Pistol+CCW) and expendability (once reserves are on the board) are a big boon.


Lord Commissar/Yarrick: This guy is really the only configurable IC that IG get, and so sometimes I feel like that's some of the allure for people sometimes. I find his practical application limited. His is useful for giving a squad high leadership/stealth, and that's about it. He is a natural choice for a squad of Ogryn. He's also good for attaching to a heavy weapon squad or a Gunline Support build Company Command Squad in the interest of keeping the heavy weapon squads at high leadership, though I would be careful about the latter, as you don't want to lose your commander over a bad leadership roll.

Yarrick seems to be an extension of the Lord Commissar, except you're paying 115 more points (and losing your invul save) for Eternal Warrior, +1T, Fearless on your squad, and a stubborn bubble. I'm still unconvinced that this is really beneficial, though he does provide a location with which to soak S6 and greater wounds in a squad, which I guess could be valuable to someone.

Primaris Psyker: This guy is the only one of two IG psykers, and their only source of a Force Weapon. Unfortunately, he's only LD9, competes for a valuable HQ slot, and has some lackluster powers. I could see him being reasonably effective anti-horde in a mechanized list, though for 70 points, you have a good start on another Veteran squad. I'd rate him as "fun to use, but not competitive".

Elites:

Psyker Battle Squad: These guys can reduce leadership and have a large blast attack. Both are as effective as the squad is strong. Again, this squad suffers from LD9 and is even more fragile than the Primaris Psyker, since their effectiveness goes down as they take more wounds and they lose a d3 psykers on a perils of the warp. Most of the time, their use seems to be in conjunction with Basilisks or snipers to pin squads, however, I kind of find this combo gimmicky.

Ratling Squad: These guys are the 'best' sniper that the IG can get, but it doesn't make them great. T2 and LD6 is not reassuring for determining how long you can keep them on the board, and at the end of the day, most Imperial snipers are quite lackluster. A handful of them might not be a bad idea if you want to tailor against Nids since they can put a handful of wounds on some TMC, but don't expect them to be a solid feature of any list.

Guardsman Marbo: This guy is basically just a cheap demolition pack you can place somewhere on the board. He has melta bombs, good initiative, and decent WS, however, I just never see him lasting long enough to use any of them.

Storm Trooper Squad: The most unjustly reviled unit in the codex. I think the big problem is that too many people try to compare these guys to Veterans. They serve roles completely different. You're paying so much for them because they're a versatile unit. They can deep strike, outflank, or infiltrate, all depending on what you decide you want at deployment. I can't think of another unit in the game that gives you those kinds of options out of the box. I typically run a two-melta and a two-plasma squad, and then deep strike them both.

Ogryn Squad: I have a love/hate relationship with these guys. They're the big assault unit of the IG, but I feel that powerblobs do so much a better job. I use them mostly for cover for the power blobs or as an assault unit in a meched up army, since they're compact enough to fit into a chimera. They almost always should have babysitting from a Commissar Lord, as their LD7 is not to be trusted.

Troops:

Penal Legion Squad: I want to like these guys. I really do. Scout gives them some options for alternate deployment, which I feel is what the guard needs to invest in if they're going to stay competitive, but they can't really do much once they get there. Their special rules are nice, but they're randomly determined. They also can't have any upgrades. All in all, just too limited for me.

Veteran Squad: These guys are usually considered top notch. Typically when I see them, they have the tried and true format of 3 meltas or 3 plasmas, and they take a chimera. Another configuration I recall someone mentioning (Melissia maybe?) was 2 flamers, a heavy flamer, carapace armor, and a power fist, for a meched up assault unit. I've not actually tried this, though I think it would be nasty against horde armies, if not a little expensive.

Infantry Platoon: Platoons are really weird units. Nothing else like them really exists anywhere in 40k that I'm aware of. For one force org slot, you get 2-many units of basic BS3 troops. This is a really difficult topic to talk about, so I'll limit myself to what I've seen, and let others fill in the gaps, rather than simply speculate.

Platoon Command Squads seem to mostly be run as built-in-cost SWS (with flamers or GLs, usually) or as cheap as possible, and exist only to order the platoon they're commanding.

Infantry Squads are pretty competitive. The two configurations I've seen them most run in is combined as either a giant gunline or as power blobs. I will come back to power blobs later, as I think one could talk about them enough to warrant a separate section. Commissars seem to be a must either way. A third way I ran them in the Adepticon team tournament two years ago with surprising results was statically placed inside chimeras with grenade launchers and autocannons. Cheap and able to put out a lot of wounds, the chimeras kept fire off of them while they provided screening for the Basilisks that I had placed behind them.

Heavy weapon squads are fragile and expensive, but they're also the most cost-effective way of providing 3 heavy weapons, and they don't use up a FOC by themselves. You can have up to 5 per platoon. They're not a bad choice, provided you have some means of keeping them on the board. For this you should use a Lord Commissar or Company Command Squad, as mentioned above.

Special Weapon Squads are very hit an miss. They're the only unit in the codex that can get multiple demolition charges, but they're only a 6 man unit and have only LD7. I've run them in Valkyries with Demo Charges and suicide rushed them in to marines with notable effect, but they're an expensive unit to only be able to use once, totaling 95 points + cost of the Valkyrie.

Fast Attack:

Valkyries: I started out on Valkyries and used them for horde cleanup, then switched to Vendettas for anti-tank, and now I'm reconsidering Valkyries for transport. These guys have a lot of potential for nasty alpha strikes. I like the idea of scout moving one flat out, first turn disembarking, and then suckerpunching something with a handful of melta blasts or a Special Weapon Squad's demo charges. Granted, it's a plan that hinges on getting first turn, but you generally have a good idea whether you're going first or not by the time you scout move. The ability to scout move for a cover save is also useful in making sure you withstand that first turn strike from your opponent as well, since these things aren't exactly easy to get behind cover.

Vendetta: It's like a lascannon squad, but better. These things are highly destructive (and highly rated when it comes to target priority). They're great against Nobz, Vehicles, and MCs alike. The only downside is that they're easy to take out due to size and only having 12 armor for as much fear as they inspire. With these things, I think the old addage "1 is none, 2 is one" applies quite nicely, though I wouldn't squadron them.

Hellhound/Devil Dog/Banewolf: I like the Hellhound a lot. I have three of them, though I wouldn't ever run it in squads of more than two. They're amazing for killing hordes while opening yourself up for the least amount of counterattack. They wound T4 on a 2+ and instakill T3. There's really not much they can't do pretty well. I wish I could say such nice things about the other two variants.

The Banewolf seems like a natural choice with it's AP3 and 2+ to wound, and I see a lot of people advocating taking it with a heavy flamer, and getting a range synergy between the two weapons, but what happens when the opponent puts all of the chem cannon wounds on his plebs and puts a heavy flamer wound on the melta guy, and a heavy flamer wound on the power fist guy? The truth of the matter is, this tank is just too close range, and too scary at that range to actually be very useful. I could see it being able to clean up remnants of squads nicely, but if you don't get every last one of a squad, your tank is probably going to be in trouble.

As far as the Devil Dog goes, it's a BS3 small blast melta weapon. That should explain it's shortcomings already. The guard has so many things that can better do what it does. It's one advantage is that it has the range of a multimelta, so combined with being fast, it would have a better chance of penetrating a land raider at 24" pre-movement phase than, say, a melta toting Veteran Squad.

Sentinels: Sentinels are good harassment units and make decent tarpits for non-powerfist squads, but I think they get somewhat overshadowed by the other FA choices that the Guard has. I prefer them cheap and plentiful, three of them outflanking with multilasers or autocannons to try to get some rear armor hits, but beyond that, I don't tend to use them often. I've had people use Armored Sentinels with plasma cannons against my MEQ to considerable effect before, but that's a lot of points to sink into such a fragile platform.

Rough Riders: I'll admit, I probably haven't given these guys a fair enough chance to comment on them, but the couple times I've tried them, I ran a 5 strong squad that typically got shot up before they could do anything meaningful. I think they just suffer from being too fragile for the priority they draw. If anyone else can comment, I would appreciate it.

Heavy Support:

Deathstrike Missile Launcher: What a strange vehicle... This thing really feels like it belongs in apocalypse. It feels very awkward for standard play. I mean, the S10 AP1 blast with no center (everything counts as a direct hit) seems like an obvious choice for an Alphastrike if it weren't so unlikely that it would actually fire. Indeed, this thing could never end up actually firing. It's just too random for me for anything outside of apocalypse. Does anyone have any experience using it? What do you think?

Hydra Flak Tank: This is another thing people have considered all the rage that I don't understand. Autocannons aren't great antitank. They're okay antitank, but nothing more. I don't think making them longer ranged and twin linked really improves them much, if you're still needing 5s and 6s to glance/pen. They're like lasguns are to MEQ. And the auto-targetting system doesn't really mean much when most bikes have 3+ armor. I do want to point out the somewhat obvious utility these have against Dark Eldar. I suppose they'd be great against Ork Trukks as well, but I think that the other anti-tank you already brought should be more than enough to cope with them. One thing I notice is that they deny the cover save from flat out/turbo-boosting from ANY shots fired from the hydra, which opens up to such scenarios as 3x3 Hydras each with a hunter-killer missile just removing a skimmer heavy army from the board.

Leman Russ: I'm going to speak generally about the chassis in general and then elaborate on my thoughts on each gun one at a time. Firstly, the tank comes with 14/13/10 armor, which is remarkably sturdy. With clever positioning, you can make a squadron of two of them almost as hard to kill as a land raider! They have the option for sponsons and a hull lascannon, but I feel these options are all overcosted with a few exceptions depending upon which turret you have. Not to mention that this tank wants you to keep mobile, so you're only firing the cannon and one other gun at a time. Most of the time, I see these tanks being debated with an almost religious fervor, but I'll try to stay as objective as possible.

Main Battle Cannon - Probably the best option in my mind. Magic S8 and AP3 means dead marines, Ordinance means you average about 4.5 on your penetration roll, so effecting glances at a minimum on AV12 should be something you can count on for the most part. It's overall a solid choice. Specific Advantages: Magic AP and S, long range. Disadvantages: Can't reliably destroy armor. Of relatively small utility against things in cover. Sponsons: I'd keep it cheap. Probably wouldn't give it anything.

Demolisher - This is a very short ranged, but highly destructive cannon. S10 ordinance means you have a pretty good shot at AV13/14, and most AV12 doesn't have a chance. Also cleans up Terminators, Nobz, ICs, really, about anything under it's marker. Also comes with Rear armor 11, which makes it handy for getting close to things that would assault it out of desperation, as assault grenades aren't even effective anymore. Specific Advantages: Amazing S and AP. Will mess up armor. Disadvantages: Small use against cover, short range means if you don't wipe out what you're firing at, it will probably wipe you out next turn. Sponsons: I'd consider giving it things that compliment it's range or AP. Multi-melta or plasma cannon sponsons feel like good choices, as does a hull lascannon, though probably not both at the same time.

Eradicator - This is a medium range cannon that ignores cover, but only has AP4. I see most people disparaging it, and I'm not sure I can entirely agree with it. It's is a slightly less magical S6, which means that it's not penetrating armor reliably, but it is wounding marines on 2+ and instakilling Eldar/Dark Eldar/Gaunts. And it is AP4, so it ignores their cover AND armor. I'd say that if the Main Battle Cannon is a hammer, this is a Torx head screwdriver. Not something you'll use nearly as often, but if you need it and have it, life will be so much simpler. Advantages: Ignores cover for anything that depends upon it. Instakills T3. Disadvantages: Modest range, only AP4. Sponsons: Keep it cheap. If you take any other weapons, make them flamers. You don't want to give a wound allocated cover save to your opponent!

Executioner - This tank is expensive, but has a lot of killing power. My roommate swears by one. Most people will pair it with it's logical companion: the plasma sponsons. Advantages: Lots of plamsa killing power. Decent range. Disadvantages: Expensive as hell. Limited use against armor. Sponsons: None or plasma sponsons.

Exterminator - This is a hydra with better armor that you can fire both autocannons on while moving. You pay twice as much and lose the auto-targetting feature in the process. Personally, I've never taken it, but I think I'd take a hydra first. Advantages: Autocannon shots on the move. Disadvantages: Unless you really need the mobility, Hydras are better for what you get and cheaper. Sponsons: I'd probably pair this with heavy bolters and try to use it for infantry control.

Punisher - This thing seems like it would be great at dealing with hordes, but between AP- and BS3, you're only going to get a few kills per turn from it. As many shots as it gets, it seems like adding Pask would improve its shooting ability, but then you're adding even more points to made a mediocore tank average. I hate to be negative on anything specific because it makes me feel like I'm not exploring its full potential, but it doesn't seem worth it to me. Advantages: Lots of shots. Disadvantages: Surprisingly expensive, lack of real damage output. Sponsons: Heavy bolters or none.

Vanquisher - While this tank is fairly unreliable, it does do a decent job of damaging armor. I think I would squadron two of them before I would put Pask on it. He just doesn't seem worth it for the points. Advantages: One HELL of a shot. Disadvantages: ONE hell of a shot. Sponsons: None, though I'd find points for a lascannon.

Manticore Rocket Launcher: Holy S10 batman! This thing looks like it could tear vehicles and horde armies apart! I have one, but I honestly find it lacking most times. It's just not AP3. I honestly think I value two Basilisks more. The difference between S9 and S10 ordinance barrage isn't so great to me when there are AP2/3 options out there. It's not that it's bad, it's just situational. I'd rather have something I can count on to be good of regardless of what I'm facing instead of something that's good some times.

Ordinance Battery: Another long section! I'm going to tackle this the same way I did the Russes. The chassis on these is 12/10/10; not very well armored. To make matters worse, they're all open topped. Sure, you can put an enclosed compartment on them, but then they're getting into Leman Russ levels of expensive, and they still don't have AV14. Besides, that's not what they're about. They're supposed to be cheap and powerful, but need to be protected.

Basilisk - This is the jack of all trades. Completely solid and great for hiding behind cover and firing due to being able to fire indirectly 36" away. Any closer than that and you can resort to firing directly and be almost as effective as before. This is the only thing I ever run from the ordinance section, and it never disappoints.

Colossus - S6 AP3 ignores cover? I thought "Sign me up!" until I saw the fine print. This thing looks good, but it can't fire directly and has a minimum range of 24". It was pointed out to me that my range was off. I feel my point still holds true. That means Jump Infantry and anything that really wants to can close on you before you get a chance to hit it. And since it's ordinance barrage, you can't move and fire, so repositioning is a losing battle. Still, could be really good for a alpha strike.

Griffon - These things are pretty cheap, highly accurate mortars. They don't ignore cover, and are only AP4, but you can reroll their scatter. I don't have any horde problems, so I don't normally take them, but I would love to hear other people comment on their effectiveness. To me, they don't seem like they're worth it for the cost of a heavy slot.

Medusa - While I'm sure I'll get blasted for this one; I gotta say it anyway: I don't like it. It's a direct fire only battery, which is unusual. It's also 36" range. While it has an incredible gun on it, it still suffers from AV12 open-topped syndrome. And it's terrifying, so it's going to be a high priority kill. The times I've used them, typically opponents have taken great pains at finding a way to kill it before I get more than a shot or two. Don't get me wrong, it's devastating. You just have to keep it alive long enough to kill it.


This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2011/09/12 15:23:02


Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Having played Mech Guard for nearly a year now, I want to add a small point to the above, which is generally excellent. There are two things that I automatically include in any Mech Guard list I build. They are:

1. The Regimental Standard
- I find there are a lot of people who don't like Leadership insurance, especially one that competes for a BS4 special weapon slot, and isn't exactly cheap. All I can say is that my experience has proven the Standard invaluable, as it saves at least one squad from failure virtually every game. If you're playing Mech Guard you will be making LD8 and LD7 checks constantly. Every Destroyed - Explodes! result is more likely than not going to force both a Pinning and Morale check, and failure on either one can effectively take the squad out of the fight for an entire turn. Get Back in the Fight! can mitigate this somewhat, but rolling on the aforementioned LD8/7 is hardly consistent, and those orders could be much better spent on the highly effective Bring it Down! or Fire on my Target! instead. Re-rollable Morale goes an incredibly long way to ensuring that your squads are dangerous down to the very last (LD7) man. It's a piece of wargear that simply WILL make an impact in every game you play.

2. The Astropath
- This depends somewhat on your army composition, but if any significant portion of your army is able to fire after moving onto the board (i.e. virtually any mech army), then the Astropath gives you an incredibly powerful option: the ability to Full Reserve with far fewer of the associated risks. Facing Drop Pod spam? Simply reserve your army, let the drop pods waste their effort coming down with no targets, then roll on the board and clean up. Facing a shooty army and going 2nd? Reserve your force and retain your alpha strike capability by denying the enemy's ability to suppress your units, or simply retain the ability to pop smoke when rolling on the board. Outflank with incredible accuracy to punish your opponent for deploying in the corners of the board. Even if you never make a single reserve or outflank roll, simply having an Astropath in your army list significantly improves your deployment and tactical options, and that's 30 points well spent. I personally use him in a Straken HQ where his 2A (Pistol+CCW) and expendability (once reserves are on the board) are a big boon.

I have other units that I field a good majority of the time, but they're highly recommended elsewhere and I feel that the Standard and Astropath don't get enough love, so I wanted to share my experiences using them.
   
Made in gr
Rough Rider with Boomstick




This thread is a great idea Daedalus. If I could add my thoughts as well...

I play a hybrid list and i find that a full vox network is something that it's absence will sting you badly the momment that you need it the most. Truly HWTs cannot benefit from it but by putting a gun line blob together (2 IS with a Commissar and 2 Lascannons with seasonings to taste) i find that i tend to miss the order when i need it the most. A measly 10 points for 2 vox casters (one for the CCS and one for the blob) goes a long way a assure a good shooting phase.

On the Master of ordnance: My CCS takes a chimera and parks it somewhere safe. I can use the fire points on the chimera to fire both the off map artillery and the attached heavy weapon. Also remember that a "Bring it down" order will benefit both weapons and while TL bs4 is a litle overkil,l a large blast that scatters all over the enemy parking lot with rerolls on the scater die is worth it. On the very least it will force your enemy to spread out and maybe to enter difficult terrain to maximise his distances.

On the Officer of the fleet i find that you are right... the fact that there is a chance that the entirety of the opponents reserves will come tottaly unscathed on turn 4 this upgrade can lose you kill point games and lead to nailbitter objective games with opponents with alot of fast skimmers (Eldar).
Again great thread Daedalus, i hope this becomes the one stop thread for all things Imperial Guard here on dakka tactics.

You shouldn't be worried about the one bullet with your name on it, Boldric. You should be worried about the ones labelled "to whom it may concern"-from Blackadder goes Forth!
 
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar






Reading, Berks

I think the OotF works well and don't leave home without it. The number of times the delaying tactics have messed up my opponent's plans has more than paid for his cost. By delaying or redirecting the enemy units, you've got more of an opportunity to finish off some of the initial units on the board.

Bodyguards are a fairly cheap way to boost the CCS size and survivability of the commander if you are using him to support blob squads and are likely to enter combat. I would only really contemplate using them if you've got a commander you really want to protect, such as Straken or Creed. The points are better used elsewhere if you're running a plain CCS

Straken can be useful when leading/supporting large platoon assaults as he provides them with a bit more power as any friendly units within 12" gain Furious Charge, or Counter Attack. Combine this with his own close combat finesse you stand a slightly better chance in close combat. The bodyguards mentioned earlier help keep him around a bit longer by providing ablative wounds.

If you've going for an assault style platoon with Straken, it's quite good fun to stick a priest in there too and pray you get to make the charge. This gives you a blob squad charging with Furious Charge and Righteous Fury.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/09 20:24:46


   
Made in us
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Central MO

I’m still experimenting but I think rough riders are the hidden gem in that book (which is saying something after two and half years of that book being torn apart). I play all mech and they fill a very specific nitch for me that I am sorely lacking, and that’s getting mass amounts of marines out of my face.

On the first charge they make their points back and win the combat vs most marine variants. Plus they add capabilities that the army is sorely lacking. I cannot tell you how many times 5 marines with a melta have survived my shooting phase only to come in and cause serious trouble. Or I get podded on or have BAs unload three fast rhinos on turn 2 in my face. With the RRs I can either completely kill a 5 man unit in a disadvantageous location, or I can ignore one of the 10 man units threatening me because the RRs are going to hit, win the combat, and then tie that unit up where they are.

I’m think their proper place in in my bump from 1850 to 2000, and I’m also thinking reserving and hitting something within 18-24 of my edge is the way to go. I’m not 100% sure yet, but I have been playing with a banewolf for over a year trying to fill a similar role and I am almost completely convinced of the RRs superiority to that unit.

Lifetime Record of Awesomeness
1000000W/ 0L/ 1D (against myself)
 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






My friend always takes a big squad of rough riders and I learned to respect them the hard way. In our game last week I played my Draigowing for the first time. I finally got some revenge on those rough riders when he decided to charge my paladins with them.

I think that if you are not filling your fast slots with vendettas, then rough riders make a nice second choice for their counter-charge capability. They make your opponent really think about how to close the distance with you and avoid their charge.

I'll also second Officer of the Fleet. Many armies will want to reserve against IG. My eldar and dark eldar do unless I get first turn. OotF really makes your opponent think hard about reserving everything and coming in piece-meal or starting on the board and whithering a turn of fire before doing anything else.

Al-Rahem is great is you are not going the mech vet route. Outflanking an entire platoon can really mess up an enemy's plans and force them to divide their forces.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/09 21:39:14


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Tokyo, Japan

most effective use I've found for the storm troopers have been to make minimal squad size with meltas and deep strike them behind a valuable tank kind of like a suicidal attack. Point them at the rear armor of something jucy and shoot for all they are worth. With the rerolls available to them for the deep strike, it's a decent tactic to use against things like hull down baal pred's or even GK psyfileman dreads.

+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in us
Junior Officer with Laspistol





University of St. Andrews

Love this thread idea.

So, having collected and played IG for more than a year now, I'd like to give my comments, on a few things.



1) Banewolves. I am one of those people who will swear by the things. To me they have a few advantages that actually make them as useful as the Hellhound.

a) Speed: They are functionally faster than the Hellhound thanks to their S1 Chemcannon. While a Hellhound can only move 6" and fire both its weapons, the Banewolf can travel 12" and fire everything it has. I usually use mine with multimeltas to prevent the kind of wound allocation shenanigans Daedalus so described, and to give the thing a bit of threat to vehicles so it's a bit more flexible.

b) Intimidation Value: In adddition to adding more AV12 to the field when you're doing a AV12 spam list, the Banewolf has a tendency to scare Marine players. They're used to having their armor and cover saves making them very tough cookies, and weapons that can deny them both are rare. A Banewolf or two adds distractions. Not only will they soak up fire, they may cause the opponent to act in a manner he's not comfortable with in an attempt to counter them.

c) Counter Charge: When facing on rushing close combat units that aren't Termies, Banewolves excel at being a counter charge unit. Their main drawback, short range, is mitigated while their advantage of speed is used to the fullest. A chem cannon spray into a charging unit will do a lot of damage, even if the Banewolf dies the next turn. Even so, it's given you an extra turn to react to an incoming charge, which has been the difference between victory and defeat for me.

d) Fleet in Being/Board Denial: As a Fleet in Being, the Banewolf excels as well. Being fast means it can hide in a decently safe area and stay there. It may not do anything significant during the game, but like the Tirpitz, the fact that it's there may force your enemy to react to it, instead of pursuing his own plans. Or, he may just choose to ignore it, and leave it and the area it can move into a lone, thus securing them for the Guard.

I tend to use my Banewolves in one of two ways. When I'm running a Chimera vets list, I tend to keep them mixed in the army trying to draw attention away from the Chimeras (which honestly are the real threats), or to use as a counter charge or Fleet in Being as I described above.

When I'm running powerblobs and Creed, I'll take a pair as a squadron in order to use the Tactical Genius rule to set them loose in the enemies rear area. A couple Banewolves wreaking havok amongst heavy weapons units is not something to be dismissed. If I'm not taking Creed with my blobs, then I use the Banewolves fleet in being and board denial tricks to help secure some parts of the board, so I don't have to spread my blobs too thin.


....And I'll have to continue later.



"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

I started in 5th Edition with the release of the IG Codex and I quickly found out the ins and outs, the bad the good and the fugly.

I wanted to love Yarrick + Ogryns; However they're just too pricey and too fragile for what they can't quite do.

I wanted to love LRBT's and nothing else. While this is pseudo effective it limits the army too much especially when i was running 9 LRBT's

Than I found my nice little niche along with all the other guard players.

Vedettas;Chimeras;Veterans;Splash of platoon; Demo Charges; manticores; CCS; OOTF

to me these are the best things the codex has to offer. especially with upgrades like Creed, mainly for his 24" order bubble for turn one alpha strikes or issuing orders halfway across the board cuz you can.

I've been running 3 Vendettas since the models came out, something about lascannons always appealed to me and for once worked out well.

Platoons, I always like to take one in 1750+ just for access to SW squads and a ton more scoring units, not to mention a power blob and FTHOC (creed) However nothing beats seeing some paladins and chucking 3x Demo charges onto them

Manticore, nothing has popped more LR's killed more TWC, and all in all done this that and everything and back again.

1500+ I run two of them

   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Just a few things I wanted to chime in:

Punishers are also very useful for dumping wounds onto squads, ex. bike squads, Devs/Long Fangs, etc. to force wound allocation. The advantage being that spreading out can't save anyone from the buttload of Punisher shots as it would from a blast weapon.

Armored Sentinels are also quite effective walking behind Chimeras, as the 4+ Obscured save coupled with AV12 makes them a reliable source of Autocannon/Multilaser shots.

Awesome thread, keep it up!

"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." - Lawrence Walsh, Chinatown

"Yeah, f*ck you too!" - R.J. MacReady, The Thing 
   
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England, UK

I guess I'll pimp my Leman Russ tactica that I wrote a few months back. Copy and paste incoming:

Spoiler:
The Leman Russ is a veritable cornerstone in many an Imperial Guard army. Its large profile, thick armour and (most importantly) large guns make it an impressive, and useful, unit on the table. When assessing the Leman Russ’ potential impact on a game it is first necessary to determine whether or not a Leman Russ would synergize effectively with the units you have already selected to comprise your army.

More often than not, a Leman Russ is well-rounded enough to pose a strong argument for inclusion in many lists; the AV14 provides excellent protection from the vast majority of heavy weapons, whilst the armaments it wields can be devastating enough to swing a battle in a single shooting phase. The sight of a Leman Russ can often ensnare your opponent’s attention to such an extent that he will dedicate more fire-power than he initially wanted to against its tough hide, drawing fire-power away from other, more valuable and vulnerable units in your army. The large profile of the Leman Russ can BLOS to smaller vehicles entirely, forcing your opponent to engage an AV that he would much rather avoid.

There are times, however, where a Leman Russ would not be the best selection for your particular army. Whilst the turret weapons are, in their own right, very effective against a plethora of targets, the damage output is not as spectacular as other options in the Heavy Support section. If optimized damage output: points spent is a priority, there are superior selections in the Ordnance Battery section that can potentially do much more damage, for cheaper, than a Leman Russ tank.

Sponsons

Many arguments are made as to whether or not to include sponsons on a Leman Russ tank. The only way to discern the correct answer is to decide exactly what role you want your Leman Russ to fulfil on the battlefield. If your Leman Russ is going to be acting as a line-breaker, constantly moving to put pressure on your opponent, then sponsons would not be an ideal expenditure of points; the tank will simply not be stationary enough times throughout the game to use the extra guns. If your Leman Russ is acting as an anchor for your forces, operating alongside a gun line platoon for example, then sponsons suddenly become a much more appealing proposition, as the tank will be able to make use of the extra fire-power it has been given more often. Extra care must be taken during deployment when operating this way, as a turn spent manoeuvring into position is a turn less that the tank gets to unleash its full damage potential on the enemy.

Lumbering Behemoth

A rule unique to the Leman Russ. This rule essentially allows a Leman Russ to always fire two guns, even if moving at combat speed. A Leman Russ (without sponsons) would therefore be able to fire both its battle cannon and its heavy bolter at the same unit even if the tank moved 6”. The downside to this rule is that should the tank want to move at cruising speed, it does so at a potentially much more reduced rate than other vehicles. To this extent, it is always more preferable to move the Russ 6” and fire two guns, than run the risk of moving 7-12” and firing nothing (Turn 1 of Dawn of War games notwithstanding).

Leman Russ Battle Tank

+ S8 AP3 Ordnance is a MEQ’s nightmare.
+ S8 Ordnance is decent against AV11-12 in a pinch.
+ Cheapest variant, buys a solid vehicle at a good price.

- Not the most potent AT potential.
- Expensive when outfitted with ‘exotic’ sponsons.


Optimal loadout: Hull heavy bolter (heavy bolter sponsons optional)

Many players would argue that the traditional Leman Russ is the jack-of-all-trades variant, able to be outfitted to deal with either armour or infantry and deal effectively with both types of targets. I would argue that S8 Ordnance does not necessarily equate to impressive odds when targeting any AV12+, and that lower armour values can easily be handled by other, more numerous, elements of the Guard army.

I prefer to perceive the Leman Russ as one of the best variants to deal with any light-medium infantry with a save of up to 3+. The battle cannon can obliterate Marine squads and Ork mobs alike, whilst the heavy bolter (which can always fire!) can add to the overall tally. Swapping the heavy bolter for a lascannon to try and improve the AT ability of the Leman Russ is simply trying to shoehorn the tank down a path that it isn’t really optimized for. Likewise, adding plasma sponsons for some AP2 punch will more often than not result in your opponent enacting some wound allocation shenanigans to reduce the overall damage caused by the tank.

Leman Russ Vanquisher

+ 72” range 2D6 armour penetration can really put the hurt on vehicles.
- Not AP1.
- Heavy 1 at BS3 results in a miss 50% of the time.

Optimal loadout: Hull lascannon.

The Vanquisher is the tank-hunting tank of the Leman Russ variants. Being able to snipe vehicles from across the table is exceptionally useful, and pairing this variant up with a standard Leman Russ can see you eradicating a transport and the squad inside per turn. The obvious disadvantage of this variant is that the BS3 of the crew means it will only ever hit half the shots it fires, not great when you pay over 150 points for the privilege. When it does hit it will more than likely make an absolute mess of whatever armour was in the way, but Murphy’s Law means that the one time you really, really wanted it to hit, it’ll miss and you’ll be wondering what you just spent all those points on.

The hull lascannon pairs up rather nicely with the vanquisher cannon as they are both high S, low AP weapons and thus synergize very well together.

Leman Russ Exterminator

+ Heavy 4, twin-linked autocannon on AV14 Is pretty cool.
- Hydras exist.

Optimal loadout: Hull heavy bolter.

This is one of the Russ variants that is simply too expensive to justify bringing along. The twin-linked, heavy 4 autocannon would be quite useful if the Hydra didn’t perform exactly the same role, better, for cheaper. When you can purchase two Hydras for the price of a single Exterminator (thus doubling your fire-power) there is simply no real reason to choose this variant. At all.

Leman Russ Eradicator

+ Ignoring cover is great in an edition where cover is king.
+ Decent strength and AP coupled with long range will destroy horde units.

- Effectively a heavy flamer on an AV14 chassis.
- Expensive


Optimal loadout: Hull heavy bolter (heavy bolter sponsons optional)

Another Russ variant whose niche is better suited elsewhere in the codex. The Eradicator looks like a fairly cool tank; AP4 and ignoring cover strips most horde armies of the majority of their long-range fire protection. Unfortunately, a Hellhound can do pretty much exactly the same thing, has roughly the same effective range, and is cheaper. The Eradicator would be best suited as an anchor point for a gunline army, using the heavy bolter sponsons coupled with the nova cannon to dent the tide of infantry swarming towards your lines. If you regularly face Green Tide or Tyranid swarm armies then you may find a use for this tank, otherwise the AP4 and middle-of-the-road strength don’t really cut it when fighting MEQ.

Leman Russ Demolisher

+ One of the best ordnance guns in the game.
+ S10 annihilates infantry and vehicles alike.
+ Tougher rear armour than other variants.

- Short range
- Relatively expensive when considering other options in the codex.

Optimal loadout: Hull heavy flamer.

One of the top 3 Leman Russ variants you can get. The Demolisher can smash anything on the table with contemptuous ease, and then laugh as the return fire ricochets off of its tough armour plating. You’ll never be short of targets for the Demolisher to shoot at; and due to its large threat radius, it can often be placed quite highly on your opponent’s priority list, leaving other units such as Vendettas and Chimera facing less fire-power than they otherwise would have.

The Demolisher’s key flaw is in the short range of its cannon. It has to be perilously close to your opponent’s lines in order to shoot, putting it at the risk of return fire from any melta weapons arrayed against you.

The hull heavy flamer is the best option here as the tank is already in close proximity to the enemy. Therefore should it lose its main gun, it isn’t too far away from roasting an infantry squad or two.

Leman Russ Punisher

+ Heavy 20 is cool.
- No AP.
- Short range.
- BS3.
- Expensive.


Optimal loadout: Hull heavy bolter.

The much maligned Punisher possibly holds the position, along with the Exterminator, as the worst variant available. The heavy 20 gun looks nice on paper, and the S5 means a lot of those hits will transfer into wounds, but the lack of an AP coupled with a criminally short range really hampers the overall performance of the tank. Designed to be anti-infantry it needs at the very least an AP value and/or rending to be halfway decent at its job. It can be used to throw a bunch of wounds on monstrous creatures in the hope that one or two will stick, but then you realize your paying 180 points for the privilege and you go and buy a pair of Hydras instead.

Leman Russ Executioner

+ Heavy 3 plasma cannon!
- Most expensive variant available.

Optimal loadout: Hull lascannon w/ plasma cannon sponsons

The Executioner can throw down entire star systems worth of pain onto an enemy unit. Being able to churn out a potential 5 plasma cannon blasts can reduce squads of Terminators to molten puddles in seconds. As the Guard have only one other way to field plasma cannons, the Executioner truly stands alone as a variant with no competition anywhere else in the codex. Its ability to dish out the hurt is well documented pretty much everywhere, so expect it to come under a lot of fire-power as your opponent desperately tries to shut down those blast templates.

All this destruction comes at a price, and the Executioner is the most expensive tank you can purchase, even more so when it is decked out with plasma sponsons and a hull lascannon. You pay the points for all that AP2 death, but when you wipe 2-300 points of Terminators/Sanguinary Guard/Death Company off the table, you’ll be happy you broke the bank to bring along a tank such as this.


Good idea with this thread!

L. Wrex

INITIATIVE 10 - painting, modelling and gaming in the the 40k universe.
http://initiative10.blogspot.com/

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<Lycaeus Wrex> rolls 7 dice, 4+ to hit, Strength 6 against Armour 12...
* 0 out of 7 dice hit (4+) = (1,1,1,1,1,1,1) 
   
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Bethesda, MD

Considering I just started IG....Subscribing.

My experiences so far (after 7 games and a 5 win / 2 loss record):

Meltas. Bring them in every squad if possible. For 10 points, I don't think they are a bad option.

Vox: Totally worth it.

HQ choices: I've started fielding 2x CCS with MoO (in their own Chimeras if the points are there). Worth it.

-Adam

1800 points
3200 points
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6700 points


DR:80-S+G++M-B+I++Pw40k01+++D+++++A++/hWD251R++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Oklahoma City, Ok.

sk82712 wrote:Considering I just started IG....Subscribing.

My experiences so far (after 7 games and a 5 win / 2 loss record):

Meltas. Bring them in every squad if possible. For 10 points, I don't think they are a bad option.

Vox: Totally worth it.

HQ choices: I've started fielding 2x CCS with MoO (in their own Chimeras if the points are there). Worth it.

-Adam


Keeping in mind that i've never ran one, the MoO seems like it's too much of a gamble.
He's going to keep the CCS he's in still to fire, plus the scatter on any Ord. can be a killer.
His just seems too risky for the points.

"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC

"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC

 
   
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Junior Officer with Laspistol






The eye of terror.

sk82712 wrote:Considering I just started IG....Subscribing.

My experiences so far (after 7 games and a 5 win / 2 loss record):

Meltas. Bring them in every squad if possible. For 10 points, I don't think they are a bad option.

Vox: Totally worth it.

HQ choices: I've started fielding 2x CCS with MoO (in their own Chimeras if the points are there). Worth it.

-Adam


I wouldn't bother subscribing to this thread. There's already been a bunch of really shaky advice, and trying to point it all out would simply cause arguments.

Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

New to the game and can't win? Read this.

 
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




England, UK

willydstyle wrote:I wouldn't bother subscribing to this thread. There's already been a bunch of really shaky advice, and trying to point it all out would simply cause arguments.


And the point in this post is? It's like trying to take the moral high ground after starting the fight really isn't it?

L. Wrex

INITIATIVE 10 - painting, modelling and gaming in the the 40k universe.
http://initiative10.blogspot.com/

INITIATIVE 10 STORE - painting and modelling commission and bitz webstore
http://initiative10.weebly.com/index.html

<Lycaeus Wrex> rolls 7 dice, 4+ to hit, Strength 6 against Armour 12...
* 0 out of 7 dice hit (4+) = (1,1,1,1,1,1,1) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Golden Throne

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
willydstyle wrote:I wouldn't bother subscribing to this thread. There's already been a bunch of really shaky advice, and trying to point it all out would simply cause arguments.


And the point in this post is? It's like trying to take the moral high ground after starting the fight really isn't it?

L. Wrex


Concur.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






The majority if the advice here isn't actually tactical advice, it's list-building advice on unit selections.

In terms of tactics, this guy (tonyponyf on youtube) has some pretty good IG tactics. Scroll down to Chimera tactics to see how he does it...

http://www.youtube.com/user/tonyponyf

Tactically speaking, I'll say that to play IG well, you need to know when you need to be aggressive and when you need to play defensively. Deployment almost always decides the game IMO, so if you can deploy well then you've already got the ball rolling in the right direction.



In about 50 games with my mech IG, I've only lost 3 and one was at 500 points. The other 2 were to Kan Wall Orks and to Deathwing. These are the aggressive types of armies that have you playing Dicehammer 40k. IE: If your opponent's dice are hotter than yours, they're just going to keep coming and there's literally nothing you can do about it. What about Space Wolves and BA? It's either a Meched up slugfest, in which case maneuver plays a huge role, or they're running deathstars that can easily be tied up by a blob or run off with a well-placed Weaken Resolve.

One day I'll write a more complete tactica...til that day!

Tier 1 is the new Tactical.

My IDF-Themed Guard Army P&M Blog:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/355940.page 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






willydstyle wrote:
sk82712 wrote:Considering I just started IG....Subscribing.

My experiences so far (after 7 games and a 5 win / 2 loss record):

Meltas. Bring them in every squad if possible. For 10 points, I don't think they are a bad option.

Vox: Totally worth it.

HQ choices: I've started fielding 2x CCS with MoO (in their own Chimeras if the points are there). Worth it.

-Adam


I wouldn't bother subscribing to this thread. There's already been a bunch of really shaky advice, and trying to point it all out would simply cause arguments.


Maybe you could enlighten all of us mental midgets with your sage wisdom?

DQ:70+S++G+M-B+I+Pw40k93+ID++A+/eWD156R++T(T)DM++


 
   
Made in au
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Australia

of all the things that GW brought from Apocalypse into normal 40k, the Vanquisher is probably the one they screwed up the most .

Dont get me wrong, I absolutely love this tank. I think it just looks sexy (for a tank ) and is just about the scariest anti-armour weapon short of a volcano cannon.

But, and its a big butt (Behemoth jokes asside), the vanquisher is not good in normal games due to BS3. Pask fixes this, but then its an extra 50 points and the tank starts aproaching the price of landraiders and such. in short, if ur going to use them in normal games; take one, give it pask and a lascannon and put it in cover.

On the otherhand, you go to apocalypse, this tank shines; coax weapons give yoiu re-rolls to hit, and the extra points for crew upgrades dont seem too bad. at this stage, if you play it well and have a few distractions, it should be killing a tank per turn. Annecdotal evidence for this i can give, I even managed to score a few titan kills (one shot = by-by stompa = apocalyptic explosion = oh, so thats a quater of your army gone? ).

there are a few other things like this such as the collossus and deathstrike which realy belong in apocalypse, however; if they gave the Vanq a coax or alowed it to shoot blast as well (old IA books anyone?) it would be good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh yeah and while i think about it the exterminator used to cost 125 points in the old IA book (vanq cost 175 but it fired ordinance blast and had 96" range).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/11 05:44:33


"everything counts in large amounts ..... especialy Battle cannon rounds and deathstrike missiles"

opponent "hah! take a void bomb from my void raven!" ..... bomb misses, scatters 12" onto Archon in transport..... transport explodes killing Archon..... me "dude, i think that just voided your warranty"

2nd/283rd Cadian Infantry "Black coats" - 5500pnts and growing  
   
Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




HIDING IN THE METAL BAWKSES!!

Lord Commander Phyrus wrote:of all the things that GW brought from Apocalypse into normal 40k, the Vanquisher is probably the one they screwed up the most .

Dont get me wrong, I absolutely love this tank. I think it just looks sexy (for a tank ) and is just about the scariest anti-armour weapon short of a volcano cannon.

But, and its a big butt (Behemoth jokes asside), the vanquisher is not good in normal games due to BS3. Pask fixes this, but then its an extra 50 points and the tank starts aproaching the price of landraiders and such. in short, if ur going to use them in normal games; take one, give it pask and a lascannon and put it in cover.

On the otherhand, you go to apocalypse, this tank shines; coax weapons give yoiu re-rolls to hit, and the extra points for crew upgrades dont seem too bad. at this stage, if you play it well and have a few distractions, it should be killing a tank per turn. Annecdotal evidence for this i can give, I even managed to score a few titan kills (one shot = by-by stompa = apocalyptic explosion = oh, so thats a quater of your army gone? ).

there are a few other things like this such as the collossus and deathstrike which realy belong in apocalypse, however; if they gave the Vanq a coax or alowed it to shoot blast as well (old IA books anyone?) it would be good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh yeah and while i think about it the exterminator used to cost 125 points in the old IA book (vanq cost 175 but it fired ordinance blast and had 96" range).

Well, the only thing I'd complain about the Vanquisher is that it cost too much (Since Pask is pretty much mandatory), making it more powerful would be unbalanced for an army that's already got great AT options through out the book.

 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

willydstyle wrote:
I wouldn't bother subscribing to this thread. There's already been a bunch of really shaky advice, and trying to point it all out would simply cause arguments.


But that's just it. We're not looking for arguments. We're not looking for 'right' or 'wrong'. I'm looking for differing opinions and the reasoning behind them, and I would ABSOLUTELY love to hear yours. I really wish you would point out the shaky advice and, more importantly, why it's shaky. I mean, if you've such a grasp on the codex, please, enlighten. That's why we're here. I've been playing since about the time it came out, and I really, genuinely don't feel like I have it all down. I'm trying. I think I have a good grasp, but I always thing I can do better. That's why I started this thread.

Otherwise the only response is hatersgonnahate.jpg.


-------

Moving on with the thread, thanks for all the comments. I'm going to eventually go through each post, grab what seems like the most important bits, and then incorporate it into the original thread.

So, on to the actual 'tactica' portion of the thread....

Powerblobs:

Conventionally, a 'powerblob' is typically multiple Infantry Squads combined into a 20-50 man group combine with one or more commissars. These squads typically have power weapons on the commissar and many of the sergeants. It's not unusual to see them with meltaguns, krak grenades or melta bombs, or even a priest. They're not designed to slaughter their enemy upfront, but to wear them down through a war of attrition. I'm going to talk about optimum size.

So, I've been running 21 man blobs. They've not been quite getting the point across, except in situations where my opponent makes a mistake. The reason for this is because 21 man blobs is suboptimum, and here is the reason why:

At 24", 10 marines usually get 8 shots, which means they get about 5.25 hits. They go on to get 4 wounds. You keep moving forward, and get into 12" range. They rapid fire at you. They get 16 shots, which means they get about 10.5 hits and thus, 8 wounds. You take them, because you're trying to get them and have, for the purposes of this argument, had little to no cover. You're now down 15-16 guys. If you're a 20 man blob, that's just not enough bodies left over to get the job done. If you're a 30 man blob, you have half the blob left, which should be enough to put some hurt on.

Tarpitting: The man reason why the powerblob works is because of it's ability to tarpit. If you have 30 guys + commissar, and you're fighting a 10 man marine squad, and you're losing 5 guys at a time while your opponent is only losing 3 at a time, then you're losing combat, however, you'll still beat him in the end, because you wipe him out in 3-4 turns, while he wipes you out in 5-6. The question is, what do you do when it goes wrong?

The answer is to picture the commissar as the plug to the drain of the big tarpit that the enemy is trapped in. Say you can't win the fight, and you see it coming. They're wiping out 7-8 of your guys and you're cleaning up 1-2. You can't keep up. The best thing to do is to take your commissar as a casualty during THEIR assault phase. That's right, you heard me. Lose the commissar. You want that squad to fall apart. Let your sargeants get their hits in, and then let the squad break. Once they do, it will end the opponent's assault phase, and then it's your turn. Suddenly they squad is no longer protected by being in assault and then you can open up on it! This should allow you to engage enemies on your terms, and even when things aren't going your way, you should be able to still cope with them at your leisure, which is really how you win this game: Make the enemy play 40k with you; not the other way around.

I'd appreciate if someone could put a good word or two in about the basics of bubblewrapping, otherwise I should be able to contribute to this again come Monday. At that point, I'll also add some effective builds I've seen and played, and my thoughts on them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/12 15:21:53


Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Junior Officer with Laspistol






The eye of terror.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
willydstyle wrote:I wouldn't bother subscribing to this thread. There's already been a bunch of really shaky advice, and trying to point it all out would simply cause arguments.


And the point in this post is? It's like trying to take the moral high ground after starting the fight really isn't it?

L. Wrex


The point is that a person trying to blindly follow the advice given in this thread will find themselves confused at best. There's been some good tid bits, and some lousy ones, but ultimately you have to figure out things for yourself.

So, for a more concrete example: punishers are bad. For 190 pionts, you're looking at 7 wounds on a T4 squad, but at 24" max. If you look at Hydras, a unit that was poo-poohed in one of the posts, you can get 2 of them with hull heavy bolters for 40 points less. These 2 hydras will put the same number of wounds on a T4 squad and can damage up to AV13 as well. Oh, and they do it out to 72".

Therefore, despite the advice given thus far in this thread, punishers are over-priced pieces of crap, and hydras are incredibly cost-efficient damage-dealing units.

Edit: holy crap, math fail

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/11 07:12:52


Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

New to the game and can't win? Read this.

 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

While I disagree with the tone of willydstyle's posts, I do agree with hydras being very good tanks to bring. Helps with taking down the vendettas/storm ravens that are quite popular lately. Fairly good at demeching alot of rhinos/transports that you see "Multiple small units" using. Personally I don't use the punisher so I have no info on it. In fact, my IG never had a LR of any kind, chimera spam with manticores/hydras/and vendettas for me =)

While AV 12-10 tanks are kind of weak, don't forget to tank shock whenever you can especially if they get weapon destroyed. I've actually ran a dreadknight off the board once with a hydra that had the guns shot off it.

On the power blobs thing. Be careful of grouping as blast templates can hurt a lot. From a GK player perspective, I can run in a solo paladin in my drago list and blow up alot of guys with a holocaust. Cleansing flame also tends to mess up IG power blobs pretty bad never mind the S5 storm bolter spam from strike squads with psybolt ammo.

Orc trucks with flamers inside also can get somewhat insane. I've seen a truck dish out 111 flamer hits after piling into a blob. (none survived ...)

+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in us
Violent Enforcer




Panama City, FL

I like to run some sentinels with a blob as bubble wrap. Give the sentinels heavy flamers, and advance up the field as you would a normal blob. Then, use the flamer to soften up the target before you charge in.

7500pts. 1750pts. 1500pts. 2000pts. 11000pts.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Golden Throne

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The majority if the advice here isn't actually tactical advice, it's list-building advice on unit selections.

In terms of tactics, this guy (tonyponyf on youtube) has some pretty good IG tactics. Scroll down to Chimera tactics to see how he does it...

http://www.youtube.com/user/tonyponyf

Tactically speaking, I'll say that to play IG well, you need to know when you need to be aggressive and when you need to play defensively. Deployment almost always decides the game IMO, so if you can deploy well then you've already got the ball rolling in the right direction.



In about 50 games with my mech IG, I've only lost 3 and one was at 500 points. The other 2 were to Kan Wall Orks and to Deathwing. These are the aggressive types of armies that have you playing Dicehammer 40k. IE: If your opponent's dice are hotter than yours, they're just going to keep coming and there's literally nothing you can do about it. What about Space Wolves and BA? It's either a Meched up slugfest, in which case maneuver plays a huge role, or they're running deathstars that can easily be tied up by a blob or run off with a well-placed Weaken Resolve.

One day I'll write a more complete tactica...til that day!


I watched general vehicle tactics, not necessarily IG tactics.
   
Made in gb
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge



Norfolk (the UK one)

Great thread.

I enjoy running 7-8 Rough Riders as a counter charge unit with Stracken nearby. The S + T boost is really quite nasty when coupled with power wpns and because they're kept out of harms way they hit like a cannonball when you need them.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Oklahoma City, Ok.

I also agree with willydstyle, just not in the way he is doing it.
this is just a list of what there is, and what they do. don't take it
as OMG, i must take it. try it for yourself before you go with what
somebody sitting around in their undies typing says to. well, let's hope
they have on undies....

and i completely agree about the Hydras. pure gold.

"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC

"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Golden Throne

alarmingrick wrote:I also agree with willydstyle, just not in the way he is doing it.
this is just a list of what there is, and what they do. don't take it
as OMG, i must take it. try it for yourself before you go with what
somebody sitting around in their undies typing says to. well, let's hope
they have on undies....

and i completely agree about the Hydras. pure gold.


I have two hydras but find it hard to replace my two manticores and a russ. This really makes no room for my 2 basilisks. O the decisions...
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Oklahoma City, Ok.

Byte wrote:
alarmingrick wrote:I also agree with willydstyle, just not in the way he is doing it.
this is just a list of what there is, and what they do. don't take it
as OMG, i must take it. try it for yourself before you go with what
somebody sitting around in their undies typing says to. well, let's hope
they have on undies....

and i completely agree about the Hydras. pure gold.


I have two hydras but find it hard to replace my two manticores and a russ. This really makes no room for my 2 basilisks. O the decisions...


I usually go with:
1 Manticore
2 Hydra
2 Demolishers *

* I'll rotate these for another Manticore, or 2 Medusa.

I agree about the decisions being a pain. but it's a good pain having so many GOOD choices!

"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC

"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Golden Throne

alarmingrick wrote:
Byte wrote:
alarmingrick wrote:I also agree with willydstyle, just not in the way he is doing it.
this is just a list of what there is, and what they do. don't take it
as OMG, i must take it. try it for yourself before you go with what
somebody sitting around in their undies typing says to. well, let's hope
they have on undies....

and i completely agree about the Hydras. pure gold.


I have two hydras but find it hard to replace my two manticores and a russ. This really makes no room for my 2 basilisks. O the decisions...


I usually go with:
1 Manticore
2 Hydra
2 Demolishers *

* I'll rotate these for another Manticore, or 2 Medusa.

I agree about the decisions being a pain. but it's a good pain having so many GOOD choices!


Agreed! Hydras tend to be ignored as well. I just find it hard not to field at least a battle cannon or a demolisher.
   
 
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