Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

First off I dont hate venoms. I think theyre great vehicles but one of the main reasons I choose to play DE is we have some of the coolest looking models! Can anyone suggest a non venom spam list thats still competitive. It doesnt have to WAAC but at least tourny worthy.

Wych in Raider spam could work out pretty well.

Pretty much the above. If its not venoms, its raiders. Warriors dont do too bad in raiders too, but more of a support fire role with a cannon and blaster

Even a Webway list requires a few venoms/raiders. Footslog wont end well for DE

You can check out the batreps link in my sig if you just want to copy lists, I don't run Venomspam at all - I actually don't think Venomspam is the best build for DE currently thanks to GKs, I think Raiderspam or a mixed force of Raiders/Venoms is the way to go.

If you just want to be different I'd suggest you check out the Razorwing batrep, that's a pretty competitive list that you won't really see around (though I am now running it with 3 Venoms which I consider an improvement)

I agree - i am mostly running 3-4 venoms max, with 4-6 raider/ravager/razorwing chassis

I've been refining the following list for a year now, gradually making some alterations but this final incarnation seems to be extremely effective @ 1500 points. Please note that 1500 is the game size of choice locally, but the list can be increased to 1750 or 2k via adding things like a 2nd trueborn squad and then scourges.

HQ Succubus agonizer 85
Elites Bloodbridesx9 syren, agonizer, 2xrazorflail, raider, flicker, nightshield 247
Elites Truebormx4 4x blaster, venom, 2x s.cannon 173
Troops Wychsx10 hekatrix, agonizer, raider, flicker 200
Troops Wychsx10 hekatrix, agonizer, raider, flicker 200
Troops Warriorsx5 blaster, venom 2x s.cannon 125
Troops Warriorsx5 blaster, venom 2x s.cannon 125
Heavy Ravager 115 flicker
Heavy Ravager 115 flicker
Heavy Ravager 115 flicker

I find this list to be incredibly balanced. It is just as threatening in CC as it is in shooting. The bloodbrides are a great deathstarish unit with the succubus. They seem to catch many people off-guard at just how much offensive output they have. They outmatch any equal point unit in CC.

Note that I used haywire grenades on wychs for over 8 months before finally dropping them. Simply put, in ~50 games there was maybe 1 time where using haywire grenades was a good choice.

Bad matchups for this list include some chimera spam/hydra spam versions of Mech IG and Kanwalls. These are not impossible wins just uphill battles. Everything else seems to get rolled pretty consistently, with many common builds (battlewagon orks, vulkan, SW variants, any CSM, Tyranids, DOA BA) pretty much having an impossible battle with smart play. Of note is that I have not had any battles against newcrons.

Thanks for the help guys, I guess I was just overwhelmed by the amount of lets all take 8 or more venoms.

and I will check out ur batreps thor although I doubt I will just copy a list its good to see what works and what doesnt

I dont own a single venom...as a trade off I have 7 Raiders and 3 Ravagers...my usual list at 2000(although i change it up a great deal) goes as such:
Archon
5 Incubi-Raider
4x 10 Warriors-Raider
2x 10 Wyches-Raider
3x Ravagers
Sprinkle in upgrades and go....and then add 15 Scourges to get to 2500

i have a ton of raiders (10) and 9 venoms. personally i feel the venom is much maligned and has a bad rep since venom spam armies were the initial "auto win" internet meta.

that said, i think both vehicles serve crucial roles, and a balanced army should have roughly equal numbers. i also think that warriors work best at 5 strong in a venom. 10 dosent really work any better, and its usually more efficent for the 5 in venom route. wyches, on the other hand either belong in huge blobs via a WWP or packing raiders. i look at it this way: small and shooty go in the venom, big and CC take raider.

but aside from the actual units, i find the venoms splinter cannons to be a much needed assist in anti infantry. the raider fits more of an AT role with its single lance. both kind of dont work to well as a bunker for troops to shoot out of (being restricted to a 6" move for embarked to fire) so i usually move 12" disembark and fire / fleet charge.

venoms are very useful and fill in a nice part of the army that otherwise relys on either scourges (wich should be AT), foot slogging warriors with cannons etc (why?), trueborn with carbines etc (again imho should be blasters) or sacrficing ravager for jetfighter and missiles or something else not a ravager. in short, the mass anti infantry firepower a venom can dish out for dirt cheap is simply a must have, and i reccomend at least 3-4 per army. thats just me tho

My advice is to experiment and see what works for you. There really is no reason just to do what is most popular on the internet. All you have to do is find the perfect combination for your style of play and the objectives you need/want to accomplish. Everything other than that is someone elses opinion.

Find what works as a solid core of your army and then try different elements until you've got it tuned just right. In a 2k game I generally have a 1500-1600 point core force, and then 400-500 points of reasoned experimentation. With the new units I am still adapting my old DE, so I do a lot of trial and error- as long as you keep your goals in mind while developing your list, and build in a some redundancy, you've got nothing to worry about.