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Miguelsan wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:For example, a woman in Japan recently was prosecuted for recharging her mobile phone at a railway station power socket. The amount of power taken was tiny, but the example could encourage thousands of people to do it, leading to quantifiable losses for the rail company.

Was she prosecuted successfully? That´s the most important part and your post didn´t make that clear.

M.

This is here so we can have some line of reasoning that will keep the thread from spinning chaotically into a place of infinite metaphors and absolutely no defined facts.

Niccolo wrote:You notice a spike in your electricity bill.

Yet again I ask another person to provide me with number verifying that the meltagun debacle actually shows these numbers. No theory mind you, numbers on paper, because if it is as real as all of you seem to think, the numbers would be there, or your point would be based purely in moral tones.

Niccolo wrote:You notice a spike in your electricity bill.

Yet again I ask another person to provide me with number verifying that the meltagun debacle actually shows these numbers. No theory mind you, numbers on paper, because if it is as real as all of you seem to think, the numbers would be there, or your point would be based purely in moral tones.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Miguelsan wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:For example, a woman in Japan recently was prosecuted for recharging her mobile phone at a railway station power socket. The amount of power taken was tiny, but the example could encourage thousands of people to do it, leading to quantifiable losses for the rail company.

Was she prosecuted successfully? That´s the most important part and your post didn´t make that clear.

M.

Sorry -- Yes, she was successfully prosecuted for theft.



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Wrexasaur wrote:

Yet again I ask another person to provide me with number verifying that the meltagun debacle actually shows these numbers. No theory mind you, numbers on paper, because if it is as real as all of you seem to think, the numbers would be there, or your point would be based purely in moral tones.

That is a straw man argument. You must know that it's impossible for us to provide confirmed figures due to the reasons I gave earlier.

By insisting on this proviso which cannot be satisfied, you give yourself the excuse to say recasting does no significant harm and is therefore excusable. However, you have no more valid figures to prove that the harm done is insignificant. Would you support recasting if you knew the harm to be significant?

Kilkrazy wrote:Secondly, GW can make a contractual condition of selling their models to ou, and you can agree to this condition by the action of buying the models. That is certainly part of English contract law. You'll probably find a clause somewhere in the GW legal conditions saying that disputes arising will be tried under English law.

They could, but the problem is that they haven't. All you see on their packaging, on a Shadowsword kit,for example since it's handy is a curt declaration of copyright and trademark registration, if they want to impose more conditions, they have at least put some kind of notice, available to the customer at point of sale, that they are attaching additional terms and conditions of use to the sale.


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Rico wrote: You've already said it's illegal numerous times. Your argument is based on the fact "I want it but I don't want to pay for it".

Actually, no it's not stealing, it's copyright infringment, -theft- has an implication usually that not only have you taken posession of something that the other has, but that in so doing, you have deprived them of the same object. GW still has their molds, and their casting machines, and theri designers, what they have been deprived of is a small portion of their legally granted control. Even if GW was -giving their bitz away free- recasting would be a copyright infringement, because it's about the loss of control.


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Kilkrazy wrote:
Water fountains are provided for the benefit of the travelling public. Power sockets are provided for the use of railway staff.

This is debatable, considering the number of public venues such as airports that have begun to deliberately provide outlets for public use, it's getting to the point where if such a restriction is intended, it should be announced, or public access mechanically restricted, at the convention center, where' I'm staffing a con this weekend, there are outlets that are publically available in the hallways.. In the convention center rooms, where they charge for power hookups, the power outlets are in locked panels on the floor..

Lanceradvanced wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Secondly, GW can make a contractual condition of selling their models to ou, and you can agree to this condition by the action of buying the models. That is certainly part of English contract law. You'll probably find a clause somewhere in the GW legal conditions saying that disputes arising will be tried under English law.

They could, but the problem is that they haven't. All you see on their packaging, on a Shadowsword kit,for example since it's handy is a curt declaration of copyright and trademark registration, if they want to impose more conditions, they have at least put some kind of notice, available to the customer at point of sale, that they are attaching additional terms and conditions of use to the sale.

GW's trademark/copyright notices page is interesting for a few reasons. They do have the right to control how their trademarks are used (within the normal conventions of the law on use of trademarks), so their instructions thereon are actually meaningful. As copyright holders, they can choose to waive certain of their rights, and this is the place where they can make it clear if they are (e.g., the permission for converting may be significant in Europe, where the "moral rights" of the creator of a sculpture come into play).

But no - they can't post restrictions beyond the scope of copyright on their website, without notice to their customers at time of purchase, and expect them to be enforceable. Unlike software, we don't license models, we purchase them; no hiding behind "terms of use" silliness here.

I find it disheartening that evidently people think the owner of the property in question needs to prove to someone who doesn't own it that they shouldn't mess with what isn't theirs.

It's like touching someone else's models when they told you not to, and saying they need to prove that you're increasing the chances of damaging them. It's being a jackass, and there's a reason it's against the law.

If people were arguing that they have a right to recast their purchase for some reason it would be different.

Wrexasaur wrote:
Yet again I ask another person to provide me with number verifying that the meltagun debacle actually shows these numbers.

Yet again, I point out how stupid this request is. If GW publicized their numbers, you wouldn't need to ask us. Lack of numbers does not prove anything either way, other than that the company, wisely, like all other companies, doesn't disclose this data to the public.

You keep saying "show me numbers". Either you're doing it because you have nothing of any relevance to add to the conversation, or you're trying to draw some sort of false conclusion backed up by a lack of numbers. Either way, it's pointless noise. No one is going to be able to show you numbers. You're right, the whole discussion is based on the theory of what is right and what is intellectual property.

Lanceradvanced wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Secondly, GW can make a contractual condition of selling their models to ou, and you can agree to this condition by the action of buying the models. That is certainly part of English contract law. You'll probably find a clause somewhere in the GW legal conditions saying that disputes arising will be tried under English law.

They could, but the problem is that they haven't. All you see on their packaging, on a Shadowsword kit,for example since it's handy is a curt declaration of copyright and trademark registration, if they want to impose more conditions, they have at least put some kind of notice, available to the customer at point of sale, that they are attaching additional terms and conditions of use to the sale.


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Rico wrote: You've already said it's illegal numerous times. Your argument is based on the fact "I want it but I don't want to pay for it".

Actually, no it's not stealing, it's copyright infringment, -theft- has an implication usually that not only have you taken posession of something that the other has, but that in so doing, you have deprived them of the same object. GW still has their molds, and their casting machines, and theri designers, what they have been deprived of is a small portion of their legally granted control. Even if GW was -giving their bitz away free- recasting would be a copyright infringement, because it's about the loss of control.


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Kilkrazy wrote:
Water fountains are provided for the benefit of the travelling public. Power sockets are provided for the use of railway staff.

This is debatable, considering the number of public venues such as airports that have begun to deliberately provide outlets for public use, it's getting to the point where if such a restriction is intended, it should be announced, or public access mechanically restricted, at the convention center, where' I'm staffing a con this weekend, there are outlets that are publically available in the hallways.. In the convention center rooms, where they charge for power hookups, the power outlets are in locked panels on the floor..

It's not debatable. A woman was arrested, charged and convicted of stealing electricity from the railway company. Go and debate your point with the Japanese Ministry of Justice and see how far you get.

There are various places where power sockets are provided for public use, such as in some coffee shops, and some trains. These are always notified.

Wrex , im not sure if you are seeing the bigger picture regarding the women stealing the power socket on the train station.

Sure , it was probably meant to be used during emergency if someones battery run out at a bad time.

BUT its not meant to be taken advantaged of ( for example using that train socket on purpose while not charging it at home with your own socket )

Now supposedly she got away with it , what do you think will happen next? every public socket ( lets expand that ) every public benefit offering things can be exploited.

Every case have its details and variant situations , if the rules arnt strict about something , do you think they have the time to waste on investigating all these cases?
small as they may seem , it'll all add up , in different situations . And end up as a toll on the city's $$$

LunaHound wrote:Wrex , im not sure if you are seeing the bigger picture regarding the women stealing the power socket on the train station.

Sure , it was probably meant to be used during emergency if someones battery run out at a bad time.

BUT its not meant to be taken advantaged of ( for example using that train socket on purpose while not charging it at home with your own socket )

Now supposedly she got away with it , what do you think will happen next? every public socket ( lets expand that ) every public benefit offering things can be exploited.

Every case have its details and variant situations , if the rules arnt strict about something , do you think they have the time to waste on investigating all these cases?
small as they may seem , it'll all add up , in different situations . And end up as a toll on the city's $$$

Out of curiosity LunaHound what is that pic in your sig? Did you create it? If not do you have permission to use it?

Ad Hominem Tu Quoque

CT GAMER wrote:
Out of curiosity LunaHound what is that pic in your sig? Did you create it? If not do you have permission to use it?

Yes as long as i dont claim ownership of it as its creator or redistribute it for profit

and no nice try , this example would work better if say , you ask me if i have permission to be running around with a printed picture.

Kilkrazy wrote: There are various places where power sockets are provided for public use, such as in some coffee shops, and some trains. These are always notified.

No, they're not allways notified, which is why beyond the specific instance it -is- debateable, what may fly in japan, may not in the US, or elsewhere.

Also.. according to this http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2008/09/12/girl-arrested-for-charging-phone/ - "Police issued a reprimand, but did not consider her crime grievous enough to prosecute, treating it as a minor offence."

chromedog wrote:It is possible to be 'not wrong' but not right, either

At times, I find that to be the pardoxical definition of my customers' behaviour. Sometimes, they are clearly not right but if I tell them they are wrong, then I can potentially lose their business...and they think Politics only happens in Washington.

Kilkrazy wrote:Would you support recasting if you knew the harm to be significant?

Of course not Kilkrazy, that is what I am trying to figure out here. I do not support full model casts for a lot of reasons, but I have a really hard time offending someone by just calling them an outright thief if it is for personal use.

I may have a different opinion than some of you on this, the fact still remains that theft results in the loss of property (which can include money). By saying that my argument is a straw man argument you are sticking to moral guns, and I simply will not accept what you say as fact by default due to that.

GW does not list pennies for a reason, and that is the point I am trying to make here, my judgment tells me that they are hardly losing more than a few dollars. People buying the melta-gun bits are usually going to have a very large army to begin with, hence needing so many in the first place. In this situation where you need bulk amount comparatively to one or two squads worth, I most definitely see where you are coming from.

I will still not accept that you are right because of theory, and I would argue that you are in fact wrong.

Pennies don't make a man, dollars do, and if a penny is cut in half it does not become a half-penny.

Lunahound wrote:BUT its not meant to be taken advantaged of ( for example using that train socket on purpose while not charging it at home with your own socket )

This is little more than moralistic jargon, things that are tangible such as a electric socket, are MORE than simple enough to simply lock up. This whole "You need to" thing just makes me ask questions, and I have already found answers.

There are a million and a half ways to accomplish this, and it really would not be a serious issue until people made a huge habit of it, hence just keeping them off limits.

Another thing is was there a sign clearly saying that it was for station attendant use only? Besides the fact that I would find a sign pointing to an open socket saying DO NOT USE ME a practical joke, the stations are clearly at more fault than they would like to admit on this one.

"Note"
I would like to point out that Japan has officially had panty machines okay... like as in underwear vending machines, so yeah...

So taking someone else's money is justified by it being a "couple of bucks"?

Also, you continue to place the burden of proof on the owner of the property, which just doesn't make sense. It's their property (isn't it?), they don't have try to appease people who don't have a claim to it, to whatever standards those people feel is necessary. That's ludicrous.

So taking someone else's money is justified by it being a "couple of bucks"?

If my portion of it represents literal fractions of a penny, yes.

Also, you continue to place the burden of proof on the owner of the property, which just doesn't make sense.

Who else is going to prove it, the thieves? Your logic confuses me.

"Note"
In case you all did not know I play Eldar NOT space marines okay.

And what evidence do you have for it costing the business so little?

Dude, that is what I am trying to find out, I am not a lawyer, I am just a Joe Shmoe asking sensible questions.

Wrexasaur wrote:Who else is going to prove it, the thieves? Your logic confuses me.

By burden of proof, I mean the proof that it's damaging.

What it seems like you're saying is that the person owning the property should have to prove to the person who has no claim to the property that it shouldn't be used for whatever purpose the person without the claim to the property wants it to be used for. And that it's entirely up to the person who has no claim to the property to decide if they think it's sufficient proof to stop them from using the property anyway.

For example, if Person A said "don't touch my models, they might break" to Person B. Person B responds with "prove that there's a significant chance that I'll break them". Person A says "it happens some of the time, and I don't want you to touch them". Person B says "that proof's not good enough for me", and proceeds to touch Person A's models anyways.

Wrexasaur wrote:Another thing is was there a sign clearly saying that it was for station attendant use only? Besides the fact that I would find a sign pointing to an open socket saying DO NOT USE ME a practical joke, the stations are clearly at more fault than they would like to admit on this one.

I find this attitude rather astounding, to be honest.

While the station might be seen to be 'at fault' for safety reasons, how does having an uncovered socket constitute permission for you to use it?

A train station isn't in the business of providing you with electricity. They're providing public transport. Any service other than directly related to getting you from that platform to the next would have to be specifically offered. You can't just assume that everything within a 50 meter radius of the platform is there solely for your benefit.

Frankly, without a sign explicitly stating that power sockets are provided for commuter use, I'd put plugging yourself in about on par with stealing the light bulbs, or wandering into the ticket office to use their computer.

insaniak wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:Another thing is was there a sign clearly saying that it was for station attendant use only? Besides the fact that I would find a sign pointing to an open socket saying DO NOT USE ME a practical joke, the stations are clearly at more fault than they would like to admit on this one.

I find this attitude rather astounding, to be honest.

While the station might be seen to be 'at fault' for safety reasons, how does having an uncovered socket constitute permission for you to use it?

A train station isn't in the business of providing you with electricity They're providing public transport. Any service other than directly related to getting you from that platform to the next would have to be specifically offered. You can't just assume that everything within a 50 meter radius of the platform is there solely for your benefit.

Frankly, without a sign explicitly stating that power sockets are provided for commuter use, I'd put plugging yourself in about on par with stealing the light bulbs, or wandering into the ticket office to use their computer.

Nod nod

LunaHound wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
Out of curiosity LunaHound what is that pic in your sig? Did you create it? If not do you have permission to use it?

Yes as long as i dont claim ownership of it as its creator or redistribute it for profit

and no nice try , this example would work better if say , you ask me if i have permission to be running around with a printed picture.

So, as long as I don't claim ownership of the re-cast meltagun as it creator or redistribute it for profit, I'm okay? The images you're using are COPYRIGHTED, Luna. Unless you have permission from the artist to use them or they were explicitly posted in the public domain, you're STEALING them. Does this argument sound familiar? Oh, the hypocrisy...

the_Armyman wrote:The images you're using are COPYRIGHTED, Luna. Unless you have permission from the artist to use them or they were explicitly posted in the public domain, you're STEALING them. Does this argument sound familiar? Oh, the hypocrisy...

To be fair, a lot of websites do in fact provide images that they allow people to use. It's a bit premature to be calling hypocrisy without knowing whether or not that's the case for whichever site that image originally came from...

insaniak wrote:Frankly, without a sign explicitly stating that power sockets are provided for commuter use, I'd put plugging yourself in about on par with stealing the light bulbs, or wandering into the ticket office to use their computer.

Or like plugging your laptop into the socket on the pillar by the row of seats in the airport terminal, to log on while waiting for a plane, just to illustrate how these things can get a little gray.

Or for another, I work in a bookstore.. we advertise wi-fi. We don't have statements -one way or another- about plugging in, but we'd be fairly stupid to prohibit it, because we'd loose customers. As personal electronics become more and more ubiqitious, such things are slowly becoming expected ammenties in public areas - especially areas where folks are expected to spend their time waiting. We are in a social grey zone where neither the prohibition or expectation of use is a given, hence the need for specification untill the norm has stabilized.

insaniak wrote:

the_Armyman wrote:The images you're using are COPYRIGHTED, Luna. Unless you have permission from the artist to use them or they were explicitly posted in the public domain, you're STEALING them. Does this argument sound familiar? Oh, the hypocrisy...

To be fair, a lot of websites do in fact provide images that they allow people to use. It's a bit premature to be calling hypocrisy without knowing whether or not that's the case for whichever site that image originally came from...

Wise and smart , difference of a Dakka *2 veteran

Lanceradvanced wrote:Or like plugging your laptop into the socket on the pillar by the row of seats in the airport terminal, to log on while waiting for a plane, just to illustrate how these things can get a little gray.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing how that's any different, unless the airport has signs saying that you can use those sockets.

Or for another, I work in a bookstore.. we advertise wi-fi. We don't have statements -one way or another- about plugging in, but we'd be fairly stupid to prohibit it, because we'd loose customers.

Even with advertised WiFi, it would never even occur to me that a store, cafe, whatever would have power sockets for my use as a customer.

Maybe it's just a US thing... I don't think that offering such a service would actually even be allowed down here since, as I understand it, anything that gets plugged into a socket on business premises is supposed to be checked and approved by an electrician. Although that may just be an insurance thing, rather than a legal thing.

insaniak wrote:

Lanceradvanced wrote:Or like plugging your laptop into the socket on the pillar by the row of seats in the airport terminal, to log on while waiting for a plane, just to illustrate how these things can get a little gray.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing how that's any different, unless the airport has signs saying that you can use those sockets.
\

Again , i agree with insaniak .

Because i go to air ports often i know they have special designated wait rooms made just for that purpose. ( though i dont have a lap top , i just sit in there for the air condition rofl )

LunaHound wrote:

insaniak wrote:

the_Armyman wrote:The images you're using are COPYRIGHTED, Luna. Unless you have permission from the artist to use them or they were explicitly posted in the public domain, you're STEALING them. Does this argument sound familiar? Oh, the hypocrisy...

To be fair, a lot of websites do in fact provide images that they allow people to use. It's a bit premature to be calling hypocrisy without knowing whether or not that's the case for whichever site that image originally came from...

Wise and smart , difference of a Dakka *2 veteran

Fair enough. Where did you get the images from, Luna?

Luna is an Afghan warlord, who sells bootlegged movies and space marine recasts to buy more guns.

She also cuts your ear off if you steal her electricity.