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There's a story in Dark HEresy - Inquisitor's Handbook about Astartes bolter shells being snuck out unstamped by smugglers, for use by bounty hunters (highly illegal mind you).

A techpriest wouldn't do that, but a common worker? Oh yes.

Do people want me to post pictures of my marines with chainsword + bolters?
but anyway chainswords are kinda useless hence why I take power weapons.
And another thing that keeps popping up to mind is the Iron Men's STC machine thingy how exactly could that work?

No, because noone cares

The stats of a chainsword in tabletop don't represent its effects in fluff. The Dark Heresy / Deathwatch depiction is much better.

And in the Horus Hersey fluff XD.
Remember loken owned everyone with that chain sword.

Melissia wrote:No, because noone cares

The stats of a chainsword in tabletop don't represent its effects in fluff. The Dark Heresy / Deathwatch depiction is much better.

STill doesn't matter nothing beats the pure awesome that is a power axe XP

aka_mythos wrote:What is an Imperial factory but a bunch of tech priests, servitors, and acolytes crafting these things. You'd have to work at turn of the century manufacturing to get an idea of it. You're talking about moderate tech people producing things without all the technology needed to do it easily. How long does it take to build the micro brain that assists the bolter shells targeting. The imperium doesn't have automation, and the machine spirits of munitions for the astartes wouldn't be trusted to some average Imperial citizen. There are however tens of millions of techpriests and servitors toiling away at the most mundane constructions while more skilled ones focus on larger constructs.

When I say it takes a year for a techpriest to produce a shell that a start to finish effort, that doesn't include parallel efforts assisted by servitors.

So you don't actually have anything to back that up from a codex. That makes the statement only your supposition.

The Imperium has automation, its just not always nessacary to use it. Think of manufacturing in the Imperium like manufacturing in China. Sure China could automate all of its factories and acheive the same level of productivity with 1/4th of the total workforce, but automation is expensive while workers willing to work cheaply are plentiful.

In the actual fluff Space Marines have portable "forges" that can travel with them and produce among other things, bolter ammuntion. The Space Marines on average don't suffer from a lack of equipment, they have just over time personanified the equipment that they have and treat it with the respect that its "acceavements" have earned. For example in Courage and Honor, Captain Ventris could have taken a new set of Power Armor, he instead chose a suit of armor that had protected Ultra Marines for 1000s of years. Its the same way with everything for a Space Marine.

Space Marines and there equipment do not translate well from the fluff to actualy game play, in the fluff very rearly are more then a Squad of Spacec Marines needed for anything. In the fluff Bolt Guns take out tanks.... And the list goes on.

The problem too is that the fluff is so inconsistant. Save for maybe the HH series but even then...

I always thought of the Imperium as more stagnant in terms of tech. And that would include manufacturing. They know how to make bolters, power armour, rhinos whatever. They just need a template to do it. Without an STC they won`t build new/old things. they rarely improve on a design because if it isn't in the specs they don't improve on it. Plus I assume that due to the religious aspect of tech it also takes longer to produce because of the rites and stuff. Also I'm pretty sure the mechanicum has its secrets, thus delaying production and advancement etc.

I would go further than say it's pre-ww1. It`s more along the lines of a slave based economy not unlike the Roman Empire that requires specialists to make any piece of tech.

Melissia wrote:There's a story in Dark HEresy - Inquisitor's Handbook about Astartes bolter shells being snuck out unstamped by smugglers, for use by bounty hunters (highly illegal mind you).

A techpriest wouldn't do that, but a common worker? Oh yes.

Just because a techpriest may work on more sophisticated pieces of tech doesn't mean he deals with the meanial task of boxing it up.



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Frazzled wrote:So you don't actually have anything to back that up from a codex. That makes the statement only your supposition.

Its an opinion based on the passing remarks with regard to the works of techpriests. Is their fluff yes, is it literally what I said no. It is supposition made on my experiance with manufacturing and design of something as complex as what a bolter shell is supposed to be coupled with statements about what the techpriest do.

The simple fact of it is that anything with a complex machine spirit is the realm of the adeptus mechanicus, that while Imperial factories may produce equipment and components it is unlikely that techpriest would allow something as complex as bolter shell be built by a common worker.

It was one reason I said that maybe there are different grades and qualities of bolter shells, that the ones used by Imperial Guard and shot from their stormbolters are not as complex or sophisticated as the Space Marine's shell. Fluff in the past has said bolter shells contain some sort of guidance, a difference in shells could contribute to why marines are BS4, that maybe IG bolter shells are just .75cal cannons without the guidance. One is simply ballistic while the other is guided. Nothing has said they are 100% identical.

I picture marines bolter shells, as opposed to everyone else being handled just like US marine scout snipers where each and every bullet they fire is hand assembled at a marine facility and calibrated to the individual rifle of the individual sniper. With bullets and powder measured out to the exact grain weight. The casing and bullet are individually matched up to allow the exact fit out to four decimals of the difference between the bullets diameter and the casing neck diameter. They are hand pressed to depths that varies no more than 3 decimals. All components are required to come from the exact same production line, to reduce unseen variability. The assembled bullets are marked, cataloged, and stored for the specific snipers.

Now imagine that same level of effort going into something orders of magnitude more complicated, for a special force that is many times more elite, in a universe of generally uneducated citizens who have minimal exposure to anything as sophisticated. What ever certification process the marine personnel who do that job, the Techpriest or artisans or Imperial worker would have to exceed by leaps and bounds.

I was once in China and I couldn't even get some of them to grasp the concept of a robot. Let alone automation.

Imperial technology shows no signs of automation being used. That even if GW stated it, it would be a hollow statement.

Also page 60 of the 3rd edition rule book it says a standard sickle bolter magazine holds 30 rounds.

a modern rifle can kill a man a couple hundred yards a way. a bolter cant hit anything more than 100 feet away at the most. its pretty sad.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:a modern rifle can kill a man a couple hundred yards a way. a bolter cant hit anything more than 100 feet away at the most. its pretty sad.

What makes you say this? Becuase it isnt true.


Anything that cna be built in an STC is built throguh complete automation.

Catyrpelius wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:a modern rifle can kill a man a couple hundred yards a way. a bolter cant hit anything more than 100 feet away at the most. its pretty sad.

What makes you say this? Becuase it isnt true.


Anything that cna be built in an STC is built throguh complete automation.

He's going by game rules? 24 inches * 6ft per inch=144 feet.

I always thought that range in 40k got more abstract the farther away something was.

And going off of the official GW scale, a piece of field artillery (Basilisk) can hardly shoot a 1/3 of a mile. The tabletop game isn't really an accurate source of capabilities.

Catyrpelius wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:a modern rifle can kill a man a couple hundred yards a way. a bolter cant hit anything more than 100 feet away at the most. its pretty sad.

What makes you say this? Becuase it isnt true.


Anything that cna be built in an STC is built throguh complete automation.

Except no complete working STC machines are known to still exist. Even when the Adeptus Mechanicus build a Rhino from an STC template, they are following blue prints. Finding an STC template is like finding the G-code for a CNC machine, it gives you the coordinates and would allow you to back track to an original design, but with out the machine to run it you can't make anything with the program itself.

Catyrpelius wrote:I always thought that range in 40k got more abstract the farther away something was.

That is correct. 120" is supposed to corresponds to 10km. Its also why vehicle speeds are wonky in comparison to real vehicles; that the distances move in an entire game average out but on a turn to turn basis it abstractly represents their movement.

Except of course pistol distances (12inch * 6 = 72 feet or 24 yards) is a comprable to maximum effective pistol distances (even slightly long) for trained shooters with good sidearms.

Which is fine, but I seriously doubt that GW designed it to be that way.

I don't think they built it with any sort of concrete graduated scale, but they have said as much about it representing an abstract distance beyond 6-12 inches.

In 40k flying across the galaxy is no problem but building a laser guided bomb is something only the most advanced races can do. IIRC we've had those since the 60s. The most advanced troopers in the imperium with the best training are fighting with..... swords...? Its silly and I love it, just wanted to be clear that it is, in fact, silly.

Except no complete working STC machines are known to still exist. Even when the Adeptus Mechanicus build a Rhino from an STC template, they are following blue prints. Finding an STC template is like finding the G-code for a CNC machine, it gives you the coordinates and would allow you to back track to an original design, but with out the machine to run it you can't make anything with the program itself.

They use print outs scanned into a computer to whatever their equivalent of a CNC is. I'm not 100% sure a bolter is guided but even if it is, it's only the micro computer that's built by the techpriests and even that is probably some sort of assembly or automated procedure, the imperium is not wasteful. The wouldn't waste the time of their techpriests on making ammunition for the astartes. In fact wasting any of the emperors resources be they metal, gunpowder, or manpower is a high crime.

just refrence the blue chair.


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AbaddonFidelis wrote:In 40k flying across the galaxy is no problem but building a laser guided bomb is something only the most advanced races can do. IIRC we've had those since the 60s. The most advanced troopers in the imperium with the best training are fighting with..... swords...? Its silly and I love it, just wanted to be clear that it is, in fact, silly.

oh it's EXTREMELY silly, Highly Moronic, Illogical, and it's also ridiculous, However...

it is also UBER MEGA FREAKING COOL!!!!!!!


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That being said they could have done more homework and

A) let That which uses real technology in which case it should be represented accurately

B) let that which can NOT be represented with real technology in which case they should use complete and utter bs to describe not quasi realistic physics, because that just makes you look like an idiot.

in contrast to the warhammer world, Gundam does a really good job of this in some of the later UC gundams. like 0083, 08th MS team and 0080


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here's another question: with all the CC focus in 40k Why don't they have gunblades?

gendoikari87 wrote:

Except no complete working STC machines are known to still exist. Even when the Adeptus Mechanicus build a Rhino from an STC template, they are following blue prints. Finding an STC template is like finding the G-code for a CNC machine, it gives you the coordinates and would allow you to back track to an original design, but with out the machine to run it you can't make anything with the program itself.

They use print outs scanned into a computer to whatever their equivalent of a CNC is. I'm not 100% sure a bolter is guided but even if it is, it's only the micro computer that's built by the tech-priests and even that is probably some sort of assembly or automated procedure, the imperium is not wasteful. The wouldn't waste the time of their tech-priests on making ammunition for the astartes. In fact wasting any of the emperors resources be they metal, gunpowder, or manpower is a high crime.

There are lower levels of "tech-priests," "Artisans" and "Acolytes," I imagine its those guys who would do that sort of work. I also don't think tech-priests would see it as a waste of time to equip the top 1,000,000 soldiers at the imperiums disposal with the best equipment possible. Also Mars and the other Forgeworlds have populations in the hundreds of millions, all machine cult members who are either some rank of tech-priest or training to be tech-priest, that is with the exception of the Skitarii, but still you're talking millions of techpriest with the aid of servitors toiling away.

gendoikari87 wrote:
here's another question: with all the CC focus in 40k Why don't they have gunblades?

Because copyright is a
Also IMO they look stupid.
Though so does loads of other stuff so go figure.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:In 40k flying across the galaxy is no problem but building a laser guided bomb is something only the most advanced races can do. IIRC we've had those since the 60s. The most advanced troopers in the imperium with the best training are fighting with..... swords...? Its silly and I love it, just wanted to be clear that it is, in fact, silly.

Its because the advanced pieces of technology are long lost, the Imperium doesn't build new ships, they utilize remnant technology that surpasses the current state of the art. All the laser guided bombs from that era of humanity have long since been used.

Look at something like Stargate (err stargate) or Babylon 5 (jumpgates) where the primary means of transportation through space are gateways built by long dead civilizations. Its no different, that in those instances and 40k its technology that is only partially understood and can't be duplicated. B5 they could jump with their ships but that had its own explanation of differences.


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purplefood wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
here's another question: with all the CC focus in 40k Why don't they have gunblades?

Because copyright is a
Also IMO they look stupid.
Though so does loads of other stuff so go figure.

Copyright has little to do with it. Gun-blades existed at the end of the medieval into the Renaissance, they just weren't widely adopted.

yeah but Final Fantasy VIII made them cool.

I would prefer a traditional axe or a sword.

aka_mythos wrote:There are lower levels of "tech-priests," "Artisans" and "Acolytes," I imagine its those guys who would do that sort of work.

No, they use common citizens.

Forgeworlds are not populated entirely by techpriests you know.

Dark Heresy - Inquisitor's Handbook gives examples of non-techpriest forgeworlders, and it makes it quite clear that most of the workers are not initiated themselves... while they believe in the Omnissiah, they are but citizens under the Omnissiah's rule.

"Bolter ammunition is expensive and difficult to manufacture."

I'm not ruling out the involvement of common citizenry of the Imperium from the process, just saying that at a minimum, based on whats known about the nature of the Imperium, it wouldn't be likely that the average citizen could do this job, that to ensure a healthy machine spirit some greater scrutiny by some level techpriest, acolyte, or artisan would be necessary. That the common citizenry would be relegated to the most medial tasks in supporting a techpriest's effort, which would certainly speed up the process.

Everything in the fluff describes bolter shells as being sophisticated pieces of technology, they are effectively more difficult than a lasgun to make. So while lasguns maybe entrusted to lower level initiated, bolter shells final assembly wouldn't be. A bolter shell isn't a big bullet, there is more going on there. That when you then take the elite status of marines whatever they receive would be given an even higher level of scrutiny than it would otherwise.

I do realize that their is more than just tech-priests, I have said as much. There are initiates, there are acolytes, there are skitarri, and yes their are citizens, but on a given forge world there are a heck of alot of techpriests. That within the Imperium they'd be the only ones qualified to oversee something that is so sophisticated as to be regarded a pillar of Imperial technology. If I had to say, the vast majority of a Forge World's common citizenry is involved in the mining and processing of raw materials. Anyone more skilled than that would likely enter training as an initiate to become an Artisan or Techpriest.

The reason for bolter shells, especially astartes bolter shells, being so expensive is because of the material used more than the complexity of the design, though certainly that helps. Keep in mind that the material used in Astartes shells makes them extremely economically unfeasible for mass production-- common bolter shells, those used by civilians and Imperial Guard officers, are far cheaper and easier to produce (though still expensive compared to normal ammunition, for sure).

aka_mythos wrote:"Bolter ammunition is expensive and difficult to manufacture."

I'm not ruling out the involvement of common citizenry of the Imperium from the process, just saying that at a minimum, based on whats known about the nature of the Imperium, it wouldn't be likely that the average citizen could do this job, that to ensure a healthy machine spirit some greater scrutiny by some level techpriest, acolyte, or artisan would be necessary. That the common citizenry would be relegated to the most medial tasks in supporting a techpriest's effort, which would certainly speed up the process.

Everything in the fluff describes bolter shells as being sophisticated pieces of technology, they are effectively more difficult than a lasgun to make. So while lasguns maybe entrusted to lower level initiated, bolter shells final assembly wouldn't be. A bolter shell isn't a big bullet, there is more going on there. That when you then take the elite status of marines whatever they receive would be given an even higher level of scrutiny than it would otherwise.

I do realize that their is more than just tech-priests, I have said as much. There are initiates, there are acolytes, there are skitarri, and yes their are citizens, but on a given forge world there are a heck of alot of techpriests. That within the Imperium they'd be the only ones qualified to oversee something that is so sophisticated as to be regarded a pillar of Imperial technology. If I had to say, the vast majority of a Forge World's common citizenry is involved in the mining and processing of raw materials. Anyone more skilled than that would likely enter training as an initiate to become an Artisan or Techpriest.

I don't think bolts have a machine spirit, maybe a computer but that's it. Machine spirit specifically refers to the AI well... in this case AI means ACTUAL intelegence, but the AI systems they use, which are really just brains made into computers, something about automotons enslaving humanity in the distant past or some other, I never got the details. I'd be willing to believe a tech priest would act as an overseer of sorts of the factory but the imperial guard use heavy bolters so at the very least those bolts have to be made En MASS and I mean En MASS

I have to agree with melissa here, both the Dawn of war games and the sheer logistics have to point towards common citizenry doing 99% of the work here. Besides we don't KNOW they have any sort of guidance at all. and that would make them fairly easy to make if they don't. I mean if they aren't guided they're basically a model rocket engine tipped with a small hardend tip grenade affixed to a small kicker charge. That's not THAT difficult to make, a lot more than most ammunition though, but not something you'd need a techpriest for.

so what about the reverse of this thread, what would modern weapon equivalents be. I came up with a few a while back let me know what you guys think

Javelin: Str 8 AP 2 range 48" Heavy 1 *always hits side armor

Barret .50 Cal M95: Str X Ap 4 Range 48" heavy 1, Sniper

Mark 19: Basically a heavy 3 version of the IG grenade launcher

RPG-7: Str 7 AP 2 Range 36"


So what do you guys think some modern weapons would rate in terms of stats?