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Not true, the exact makeup of Chobham armor is classified, however it is known that there are ceramic bars in it, but there are other things to.

Heat rounds are not effective against things with reactive armor, which the front of an Abrams has. Rocket propelled sabot rounds are actually less effective then there balistically launched cousins.

Saying the Tandem systme could defeat an Abrams is like saying a Daisy Cutter could defeat an infantry man. Sure it will work, but your talking extreme overkill.

Crantor wrote:I`ve dropped my plates alot, even thrown them around. Never broke them. They don`t break as easily as you think. The newer gen versions are designed to take several impacts before shaterring. Like I said, a knife isn`t going to go through a plate. Place it on a anvil and smash it with a hammer several times maybe.
...
You might be to smash the plates with a very big sword taking a very big swing but I doubt you`ll get a kill with the first strike. Aim for the head, you`ll get better results.

The ballistic plates for body armor include warnings that say if its been dropped to replace the plate. That warning is there because even if it didn't shatter upon being dropped it makes it very suceptable to it latter on. Axes and hammers main advantage is the ability to deliver a blunter heavier broad surfaced force than a sword and I was speaking of them rather than a sword.

The thing is cermaics are hard, but hard means when the material fails it shatters. There is little or no intermediate form of failure. A metal which is more malliable fails when its dented but only completely failss when its completely penetrated.

What I've been saying about the failure of ceramic body armor is based on broad surface trauma on the ceramic plate as opposed to the single point failure induced by a bullet. Ceramics body armor deals with one type alot better than the other. One well placed hit from an axe would cause the armor to sustain a force across a large enough area that the plate couldn't stop it. Kevlar will protect against piercing but not slicing or slamming. A 5lbs axe with 2ft handle and the head traveling 40mph (59fps)... would induce 17405 pounds force across a ~1/4" thick 8 inches long axe head would see half that at any given point of the axe, or 8700psi. Class 3 armor is meant to stop a 7.62 round, thats a .017lbs bullet with a diameter of .308. traveling 2400fps, with an approximate surface contact of .075 in^2... the plate must minimally stop 7350psi. 8700psi is greater than 7350psi, so unless the plates have a high margine of safety a modest battle axe would break the ceramic in one good blow.

Crantor wrote:
As for the ammo, let`s say it would be comparable to something like a shotgun shell, maybe similar to Frag-12 HE-AP ammo. Not too sure on the range, but the explosive charge is armed after only 3m. Closest thing I could find.

Assuming a Space marine had a 24-30 round magazine, he'd also be carrying anywhere from 10-20 of those bad boys on his person. Looks silly on a model but let`s say his backpack has some.

Range is meant to be about 100 yards accurately, but even well beyond that it will explode on impact. It is a simple explode on impact design, though it needs to achieve a duration of acceleration to arm. Once it leaves the barrel its armed and it would begin to negatively accelerate.

Space marine are said to carry 3 magazines. They've been depicted as latching to their belt... by no visible means of restraint (magnets?).

gendoikari87 wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Though all of the above would do diddly squat from a .50 Barret Sniperifle (or an intervention for that matter) which uses rounds desinged to peirce modern tank armor.

No, a barret .50bmg will not defeat modern tank armor, IFV's and APC's and other LIGHT vehicles yes.

Depends on the round used, there are some wicked .50 Cal Depleted Uranium Sabot rounds out there.

Still won't cut trough modern TANK armor. M1 and challenger and the likes with chobham armor. and reactive armor.

Not through the front armor, but it sure will through the side and the turret. There are very few things that will penetrate the front armor of some tanks. We just gained the ability to defeat the front armor on an Abrams tank reliably recently.

not sure about the sides I'm sure you could find some weak spots but the best bet would be to go for the tracks. and we've had the ability to defeat the front armor for a while Tandem warheads do quite easily. if it wasn't for the reactive armor a simple RPG-7 would make short work of an abrams. <-- not 100% on that as Its been a while since I looked up the armor equivalents of the abrams and the penetration capabilities of the RPG-7 and it's probably close. Chobham armor as a ceramic does a good job at stopping HEAT better than similar strength steel. but the bigger HEAT rounds are definately going to defeate it save for the reactive armor.


also Javelin kills everything dead quick.


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And then theres this:



Worlds first Sabot Rifle, I have NO idea as to the armor penetration capabilities of this thing, but it's cool.

Like I said earlier- the Frag 12 HE-AP shotgun shell will penetrate 4 inches of aluminum armour and 1/2 inch of steel. Then explode. sounds as close to bolters shells as they come.

Catyrpelius wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Though all of the above would do diddly squat from a .50 Barret Sniperifle (or an intervention for that matter) which uses rounds desinged to peirce modern tank armor.

No, a barret .50bmg will not defeat modern tank armor, IFV's and APC's and other LIGHT vehicles yes.

Depends on the round used, there are some wicked .50 Cal Depleted Uranium Sabot rounds out there.

Still won't cut trough modern TANK armor. M1 and challenger and the likes with chobham armor. and reactive armor.

Not through the front armor, but it sure will through the side and the turret. There are very few things that will penetrate the front armor of some tanks. We just gained the ability to defeat the front armor on an Abrams tank reliably recently.

Reactive armor wouldn't react to something as small as a single .50cal round especially if the shot were placed where it had a hopes of going through the conventional armor.

The point of an anti-material rifle is to focus on large targets with soft armor. IFV and APC's predominantly. A .50cal with depleted uranium bullet could defeat an Abrams armor if it knew where to shoot. If a sniper with such a rifle climbed a tree or hill and shot down on the tank and into the engine bay cover they could disable the tank by damaging the engine. The armor across the top rear of an abrams is relatively thin to allow that weight in armor to be distributed across the front, thats its achilles heal.

1/2" of steel is nothing.

It is not self propelled. We've already had this argument in this thread.

aka_mythos wrote:

Crantor wrote:I`ve dropped my plates alot, even thrown them around. Never broke them. They don`t break as easily as you think. The newer gen versions are designed to take several impacts before shaterring. Like I said, a knife isn`t going to go through a plate. Place it on a anvil and smash it with a hammer several times maybe.
...
You might be to smash the plates with a very big sword taking a very big swing but I doubt you`ll get a kill with the first strike. Aim for the head, you`ll get better results.

The ballistic plates for body armor include warnings that say if its been dropped to replace the plate. That warning is there because even if it didn't shatter upon being dropped it makes it very suceptable to it latter on. Axes and hammers main advantage is the ability to deliver a blunter heavier broad surfaced force than a sword and I was speaking of them rather than a sword.

The thing is cermaics are hard, but hard means when the material fails it shatters. There is little or no intermediate form of failure. A metal which is more malliable fails when its dented but only completely failss when its completely penetrated.

What I've been saying about the failure of ceramic body armor is based on broad surface trauma on the ceramic plate as opposed to the single point failure induced by a bullet. Ceramics body armor deals with one type alot better than the other. One well placed hit from an axe would cause the armor to sustain a force across a large enough area that the plate couldn't stop it. Kevlar will protect against piercing but not slicing or slamming. A 5lbs axe with 2ft handle and the head traveling 40mph (59fps)... would induce 17405 pounds force across a ~1/4" thick 8 inches long axe head would see half that at any given point of the axe, or 8700psi. Class 3 armor is meant to stop a 7.62 round, thats a .017lbs bullet with a diameter of .308. traveling 2400fps, with an approximate surface contact of .075 in^2... the plate must minimally stop 7350psi. 8700psi is greater than 7350psi, so unless the plates have a high margine of safety a modest battle axe would break the ceramic in one good blow.

Crantor wrote:
As for the ammo, let`s say it would be comparable to something like a shotgun shell, maybe similar to Frag-12 HE-AP ammo. Not too sure on the range, but the explosive charge is armed after only 3m. Closest thing I could find.

Assuming a Space marine had a 24-30 round magazine, he'd also be carrying anywhere from 10-20 of those bad boys on his person. Looks silly on a model but let`s say his backpack has some.

Range is meant to be about 100 yards accurately, but even well beyond that it will explode on impact. It is a simple explode on impact design, though it needs to achieve a duration of acceleration to arm. Once it leaves the barrel its armed and it would begin to negatively accelerate.

Space marine are said to carry 3 magazines. They've been depicted as latching to their belt... by no visible means of restraint (magnets?).

LOL. 3 Mags makes for a short fight. I guess they never miss.
Magnets sounds like a reasonable way of doing it.

Space Marines don't miss. Troops that are ment to be a rapid deployment force dont need large ammunition caches.

Catyrpelius wrote: Troops that are ment to be a rapid deployment force dont need large ammunition caches.

They need more than 3 Mags if they want to win.

Crantor wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote: Troops that are ment to be a rapid deployment force dont need large ammunition caches.

They need more than 3 Mags if they want to win.

Why? A Space Marine is just as likely to crush your head with his fist as he is to shoot you, why does he need more then 50 rounds?

Crantor wrote:
Like I said earlier- the Frag 12 HE-AP shotgun shell will penetrate 4 inches of aluminum armour and 1/2 inch of steel. Then explode. sounds as close to bolters shells as they come.

As the guy sitting across the room from the guy who designed that... let me say is not going through both those. Its enough to go through one or the other. Its a shaped charge that allows it to do that, so its the explosion that makes the 2cm hole on the back end of those plates.

Its really meant to give a marine carrying a shotgun for entires more flexibility. As it is now the marine with a shotgun has to also carry a rifle. This is meant to extend his lethality out to a similar range as the rifle, while giving him the ability to defeat armored enemy infantry and hardened positions with the goal of allowing him to leave the rifle behind. Though technically a grenade it shouldn't be thought of in quite the same way, its more just an explosive bullet. If you stacked about 15 pennies thats about all the C4 is in it.

Crantor wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote: Troops that are ment to be a rapid deployment force dont need large ammunition caches.

They need more than 3 Mags if they want to win.

they are 8 foot tall supersoldiers in head-to-toe powerarmor. They could rifle-butt their enemies into submission.


But you are right, this is actually far from the US troop standard. . . which is about 180-210 rounds total, the M14A1 has a capacity of 30+1, and most soldiers carry on mag in, and three combi-mags on their person. Not to mention a side-arm, which is the M9 with a capacity of 15+1 with a mag in, and 2 more on their person. Not to mention grenades, some fire-team members may also carry an entry shotgun as well.


Given US Armed forces shun Full-auto, and prefer semi or burst to it in a shootout i would think they'd be more effective tactically than spacemarines, as they can dig-in for longer periods and wait for support

Do I really need to explain this?

Space Marines don't dig in though. If they are standing still they are doing something wrong.

aka_mythos wrote:

Crantor wrote:
Like I said earlier- the Frag 12 HE-AP shotgun shell will penetrate 4 inches of aluminum armour and 1/2 inch of steel. Then explode. sounds as close to bolters shells as they come.

As the guy sitting across the room from the guy who designed that... let me say is not going through both those. Its enough to go through one or the other. Its a shaped charge that allows it to do that, so its the explosion that makes the 2cm hole on the back end of those plates.

Its really meant to give a marine carrying a shotgun for entires more flexibility. As it is now the marine with a shotgun has to also carry a rifle. This is meant to extend his lethality out to a similar range as the rifle, while giving him the ability to defeat armored enemy infantry and hardened positions with the goal of allowing him to leave the rifle behind. Though technically a grenade it shouldn't be thought of in quite the same way, its more just an explosive bullet. If you stacked about 15 pennies thats about all the C4 is in it.

Sorry for the language my intent wasn't to state it would go through both at once. The steel and aluminum should be seperate examples. So what would be the effective range?

Crantor wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote: Troops that are ment to be a rapid deployment force dont need large ammunition caches.

They need more than 3 Mags if they want to win.

The standard load out for the modern army is about 180 rounds per soldier, though they'll take more if they can carry it.

If a space marine's magazine is 30~40 that would be 90-120 rounds.

Things to remember is that bolter shells are rarer and take an individual techpriest a year to make just one. A bolter though automatic isn't likely to blaze away at the same rate of fire as an M16 since a space marine is a better shot and doesn't rely as much on placing suppressing fire. Each "bang" of an assault rifle is 3 rounds, with the "wizz-bang-boom" of bolter shells, they are at least 3 times more effective and with the superior aim coupled with the bolter shell target correcting brain a marine only needs one bolter shot for every three "autogun" shot. So its a combination of "waste not the emperor's munitions" with the marines well placed shots.

This just adds to the fitting nature of Space Marines carrying close combat weapons, since if they're carrying less ammo the likely hood of close combat goes up the more out numbered they are.

Catyrpelius wrote:Space Marines don't dig in though. If they are standing still they are doing something wrong.

Wrong for so many reasons.

The Imperial Fists excel at defensive works.
The Ultramarines have dug in several times both at the Fortress of Hera and on other missions.
At the battle Istvaan Loyalists landed to fight dug in traitors.
There are plenty of other examples.

Marines are good at planetary drops and surgical strikes. This makes them vulnerable and isolated more times than not. Meaning they need all the ammo they can carry since there may not be a re-supply for some time.

Space Marines in the 41st millenium do not generally dig in. They will if it is necessary but the vast majority of their fighting is surgical strikes. Imperial fists carry over the skills from the time when Space Marines were the only military force of the imperium and dealt with all fighting. Now that sort of thing is mostly relegated to the Imperial Guard. Marines will still do but I'd say they'd take it as strategic failure of planning that it came to it.

Catyrpelius wrote:Space Marines don't dig in though. If they are standing still they are doing something wrong.

Read the current Nid codex and what happened to Calgar on Macragge. Hes even retreated to other more fortified positions to defend against the swarm

aka_mythos wrote:Space Marines in the 41st millenium do not generally dig in. They will if it is necessary but the vast majority of their fighting is surgical strikes. Imperial fists carry over the skills from the time when Space Marines were the only military force of the imperium and dealt with all fighting. Now that sort of thing is mostly relegated to the Imperial Guard. Marines will still do but I'd say they'd take it as strategic failure of planning that it came to it.

Again, when the nids popped up, thats all the imperium did until they got a feel for their new enemy

aka_mythos wrote:

Crantor wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote: Troops that are ment to be a rapid deployment force dont need large ammunition caches.

They need more than 3 Mags if they want to win.

The standard load out for the modern army is about 180 rounds per soldier, though they'll take more if they can carry it.

If a space marine's magazine is 30~40 that would be 90-120 rounds.

Things to remember is that bolter shells are rarer and take an individual techpriest a year to make just one. A bolter though automatic isn't likely to blaze away at the same rate of fire as an M16 since a space marine is a better shot and doesn't rely as much on placing suppressing fire. Each "bang" of an assault rifle is 3 rounds, with the "wizz-bang-boom" of bolter shells, they are at least 3 times more effective and with the superior aim coupled with the bolter shell target correcting brain a marine only needs one bolter shot for every three "autogun" shot. So its a combination of "waste not the emperor's munitions" with the marines well placed shots.

This just adds to the fitting nature of Space Marines carrying close combat weapons, since if they're carrying less ammo the likely hood of close combat goes up the more out numbered they are.

And normally a soldier carries just as much in his small pack or squirrelled away anywhere they can.

Crantor wrote:And normally a soldier carries just as much in his small pack or squirrelled away anywhere they can.

Given the general scarcity and the fact that waste would generally be frowned on, a Space Marine that unneccesarily horded bolter shells would likely be turned on by his battle brothers. The modern mentality that there is always enough ammo to go around and even enough to have extra doesn't fit the 40k setting where bolters are one of the pinnacles of technology in a empire thats barely holding its self together having been in a constant state of war for millenia.

A single bolter shell takes as much if not more energy, effort, and man power to make than a lasgun. So to give a marine even 100 shells is to place the expectation that he perform better than 100 guardsmen.

aka_mythos wrote:

Crantor wrote:And normally a soldier carries just as much in his small pack or squirrelled away anywhere they can.

Given the general scarcity and the fact that waste would generally be frowned on, a Space Marine that unneccesarily horded bolter shells would likely be turned on by his battle brothers. The modern mentality that there is always enough ammo to go around and even enough to have extra doesn't fit the 40k setting where bolters are one of the pinnacles of technology in a empire thats barely holding its self together having been in a constant state of war for millenia.

Modern mentality isn`t that there is always enough ammo to go around, it's you can never have enough. And it isn't wasted either. modern mentality is to make every shot count. I`ve had friends charged for ditching blank ammo.
I can guarantee you that the double frontline ammo is far from un-necessary.

And besides, a marine should be able to acrry much more than three mags. Tactically, logistically and realistically it makes no sense to only have 3 mags.

Anyway, Fluff seems to point that Bolter mags are 12-20 rounds depending on the type of mag used. With Bolt pistols being 6-12.

Here`s a good web page describing the Bolter. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Bolter

That fluff may say 12-20... geometry says otherwise. 12-20 was mentioned before, but given the size of bolter ammo that is about as much as normal person might carry. A marine could easily carry more and would probably put it to better use. I'm pretty sure the Deathwatch RPG game has it at 30. As an aside they also reinforce the notion of 2 magazines, with requisition point allowing a higher leveled marine to take more.

One more thing to point out its never been completely addressed but there would appear to be some distinction between the bolter rounds fired by Imperial Guardsmen off of vehicles and those fired by space marines. Bolter shells are suppose to have some level of guidance, which maybe the guardsmen stormbolters don't have... contributing to the difference in BS.

When I say modern mentality, I'm really just refering to the fact that the modern military tends not to have the sort of supply line issues when it comes to ammo, that past militaries and 40k militaries tend to have. That the notion of suppressing fire, spraying a hail of bullet not necessarily to kill but to force your enemies heads down to allow other assets to kill wouldn't be as common. That even with a modern well trained army, we provide rifles that fire three bullets at a time to give the best odds of a single one hitting, while the reliability of a marine is to accomplish as much with each individual shot of an automatic weapon.

Catyrpelius wrote:Not true, the exact makeup of Chobham armor is classified, however it is known that there are ceramic bars in it, but there are other things to.

Heat rounds are not effective against things with reactive armor, which the front of an Abrams has. Rocket propelled sabot rounds are actually less effective then there balistically launched cousins.

Saying the Tandem systme could defeat an Abrams is like saying a Daisy Cutter could defeat an infantry man. Sure it will work, but your talking extreme overkill.

well we know they have ceramics and I think I heard someone say resins.

Rocket propelled sabots? That's a new one, do you mean APFSDS? cause they're a lot better than the standard ballistic cousins.... mostly because they cheat.

I loled at the tandem, so true, but that's what they're there for. Without active protection theres not much you can't do with linear shaped charges, pretty much anything moving at 15 km/s is going to slide through most materials.

Catyrpelius wrote:The only ones anyone cares about, the Astartes version.

i don't know, but I bet Arkham Land knows. He knows everything!


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Anidem wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote:We've moved on to Jet packs now. Chainsaws are soooooooo 5 minutes ago.

CURSE MY SLOW TYPING SKILLS!

on the subject of jump jets, give the guy below a few melta-bombs to drop. . . and we have a more viable one-man infantryman thats more mobile then curret spacemarine jump-jets.




Though based on gameplay in Dawn of war II, im under the impression it was just made for a really big "hop" of sorts to get up/down cliffs or on/off transports. So this flight-suit maybe waaaay out of the scope of space-marine packs, and more akin to the Battle Suits employed by Tau

Wow its Swooping Hawk version 1.0!


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Catyrpelius wrote:Space Marines don't miss. Troops that are ment to be a rapid deployment force dont need large ammunition caches.

Thats what they thought in Mogadishu...

aka_mythos wrote:

Crantor wrote:
Like I said earlier- the Frag 12 HE-AP shotgun shell will penetrate 4 inches of aluminum armour and 1/2 inch of steel. Then explode. sounds as close to bolters shells as they come.

As the guy sitting across the room from the guy who designed that... let me say is not going through both those. Its enough to go through one or the other. Its a shaped charge that allows it to do that, so its the explosion that makes the 2cm hole on the back end of those plates.

Its really meant to give a marine carrying a shotgun for entires more flexibility. As it is now the marine with a shotgun has to also carry a rifle. This is meant to extend his lethality out to a similar range as the rifle, while giving him the ability to defeat armored enemy infantry and hardened positions with the goal of allowing him to leave the rifle behind. Though technically a grenade it shouldn't be thought of in quite the same way, its more just an explosive bullet. If you stacked about 15 pennies thats about all the C4 is in it.

Jesus, it really is a shaped charge? I thought it had to be to have those kinds of capabilities but dang, I didn't know they could be made that small. How does penetrative capabilities scale with the round being so small?

also Am I the only one thinking GW should change fluff to give marines these things?

The point of an anti-material rifle is to focus on large targets with soft armor. IFV and APC's predominantly. A .50cal with depleted uranium bullet could defeat an Abrams armor if it knew where to shoot. If a sniper with such a rifle climbed a tree or hill and shot down on the tank and into the engine bay cover they could disable the tank by damaging the engine. The armor across the top rear of an abrams is relatively thin to allow that weight in armor to be distributed across the front, thats its achilles heal.

Lol give a good sniper enough time and he'll find a way to bring down a titan. Everything has a weakpoint. you can't be clad in 12inches of ultratough steel/armor/ceramic/adamantium everywhere.

also correct me if i'm wrong but the top of the tank is one of the weak points on most tanks these days right, that's why the javelin has that top down attack mode.


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Not to mention a side-arm, which is the M9

Be a good friend, if you know someone over in Iraq, get them a glock! I have heard no good stories about the reliability of the M9 in desert conditions.


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Things to remember is that bolter shells are rarer and take an individual techpriest a year to make just one.

are you sure about this one, that seems a bit excessive.


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they are at least 3 times more effective and with the superior aim coupled with the bolter shell target correcting brain a marine only needs one bolter shot for every three "autogun" shot.

I still suspect bolts to be a guided weapon of sorts. It'd fit space marines.

The Astartes attitude on bolter shells is: "Waste not what the Emperor provides".

Also, bolter shells are manufactured by factories just like all other ammunition. Yes, including Astartes shells.

What is an Imperial factory but a bunch of tech priests, servitors, and acolytes crafting these things. You'd have to work at turn of the century manufacturing to get an idea of it. You're talking about moderate tech people producing things without all the technology needed to do it easily. How long does it take to build the micro brain that assists the bolter shells targeting. The imperium doesn't have automation, and the machine spirits of munitions for the astartes wouldn't be trusted to some average Imperial citizen. There are however tens of millions of techpriests and servitors toiling away at the most mundane constructions while more skilled ones focus on larger constructs.

When I say it takes a year for a techpriest to produce a shell that a start to finish effort, that doesn't include parallel efforts assisted by servitors.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Jesus, it really is a shaped charge? I thought it had to be to have those kinds of capabilities but dang, I didn't know they could be made that small. How does penetrative capabilities scale with the round being so small?

also Am I the only one thinking GW should change fluff to give marines these things?

Yes, but Jesus has little to do with it.

It scales because most grenades and explosive contain very little high grade explosive and instead use the high grade to initiate the low grade. This just high grade funneled to a very focused jet.

I think this is only comparable to a basic bolter shell. Its meant to crack body armor and light vehicles. In other words glance on a 6 and ignore 5+ saves. You could make an arguement that sternguard ammo takes it and runs with it further.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Lol give a good sniper enough time and he'll find a way to bring down a titan. Everything has a weakpoint. you can't be clad in 12inches of ultratough steel/armor/ceramic/adamantium everywhere.

also correct me if i'm wrong but the top of the tank is one of the weak points on most tanks these days right, that's why the javelin has that top down attack mode.

That's correct.

gendoikari87 wrote:
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Things to remember is that bolter shells are rarer and take an individual techpriest a year to make just one.

are you sure about this one, that seems a bit excessive.

Imagine producing electronics without a clean room or automation. All the "rites" of purity to insure a healthy machine spirit. Think of it as a quality control. Also a skilled techpriest may have multiple servitors who would allow him to work on multiple things at once. So while it may take him a year he could easily be working on other things as well.

aka_mythos wrote:What is an Imperial factory but a bunch of tech priests, servitors, and acolytes crafting these things.

You seriously think that all factories are staffed entirely by techpriests?

No, manufactorums make good use of the Imperium's largest resource-- manpower. Human labor is abundant and cheap.

Melissia wrote:The Astartes attitude on bolter shells is: "Waste not what the Emperor provides".

Also, bolter shells are manufactured by factories just like all other ammunition. Yes, including Astartes shells.

I thought so, a single techpriest wasting a year of his life on a single bolter shell seems absurd on so many different levels.


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Melissia wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:What is an Imperial factory but a bunch of tech priests, servitors, and acolytes crafting these things.

You seriously think that all factories are staffed entirely by techpriests?

No, manufactorums make good use of the Imperium's largest resource-- manpower. Human labor is abundant and cheap.

Dawn of war II and angel forge attest to this. Basically angel forge is a giant city staffed by ... well basically guardsmen, and I think ordinary citizens.

It may not be the sole focus of his efforts, he has servitors to assist him and may work on a number of things as once. Just that when you attempt to make a sophisticated electronic or advanced piece of technology without a clean room or automation it requires added care. Think of it more in terms of man hours, that it takes 6000 man hours to build it. Well a techmarine with the aid of servitors might be able to do 3 or 4 or 5 times that in a year, allowing the hours of labor not to be consecutive.

While I am sure there are things that are produced in ways to exploit large bodies of labor they are probably not things destined to go to space marines or things believed to have machine spirits or anything sufficiently advanced.

We are talking about going into a factory with a pre-WWI mindset and asking them to build a miniature electronic or similar. Those sorts of things are what the Forgeworlds and Techpriests build. The more mundane like helmets and armor, maybe sub-components that's what less sophisticated factories would deal with.