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gendoikari87 wrote:Javelin: Str 9 AP 2 range 48" Heavy 1 *always hits side armor

S8 at best, maybe S7 even.

S8 is the strength of a meltagun, which can be used to cut through the hull of an Imperial battleship. It's really hard to believe the javelin is stronger than that. Definitely not AP2, as I don't believe this would be able to entirely penetrate terminator armor.

Str 9 was a typo, It's got over 600mm of penetration WELL more than enough to make a terminator say good bye in fact all modern shoulder launched rocket systems would tell terminators to go to sleep.

We do have this, the armor on a Land Raider Prometheus:

ARMOUR: 91-95mm
(2 Ceramite layers,
1 Titanium/Plasteel layer,
1 Adamantium layer,
1 Thermoplas layer.
Equivalent of 365mm of
conventional steel)

So Technically all modern shoulder launched rocket launchers should be able to penetrate a land raider but I think the ceremite layers would far increase the effectiveness of the land raider armor over modern rocket launchers, but a terminators armor if it has ceremite at all isn't going to be enough to stop something that SHOULD in all correctness be able to penetrate twice the armor of a land raiders armor in pure adamantium.

RPGs are DEFINITELY not AP2. AP2 is punching clean through modern MBT armor without a problem. I'd rank them AP3 at best...maybe even AP4. Other than that....I'd say it's pretty accurate overall.

That's Imperial Armour 1, which I think is horrendously outdated by now.

I mean the effectiveness of a mere 14 inches of steel? The Abrams, which is a much lighter tank which the Land Raider is pretty obviously intended to be better armor than, has armor equivalent to roughly sixty inches.

On a sligtly different tack, my IG are Praetorians and I built them as a Steampunk/Victorian Sci Fi outfit, so they have some of the weapons of that era, anmd it was interesting to map them out.

(i) The lasgun (aka flashliht) is IMO more like the modern 5.65mm round than the much more powerful c 7-8mm rounds of 1900

(ii) The Heavy Bolter is best seen as the Medium Machine Gun, probably 7 - 8mm calibre (Maxims etc).

(iii) Autocannons - this sort of weapon was new in 1900, the 12 (25mm) pom-pom is probably the closest equivalent. Another option is the 3pdr Quick-Fire gun.

(iv) Missiles - the British used Hales Rockets from the 1870s, so having Missiles is reasonably accurate if used in HW squads (but not with the troops) but the Hales ones were notoriously inaccurate.

(v) Mortars and Grenade launchers - came out in WW1 more than the Victorian world.

(vi) Lascannon - seems to be the pretty ubiquitous 6-7 pounder field guns of the era.

(vii) The bigger artillery are basically then just biggr field guns.

(viii) Sentinels and tanks/APC are a bit harder, so it's time for ingenious Steam LandShips etc etc. Helps that the Leman Russ is basically a WW1 tank design.

(ix) The Bengal lancers appreciate the new-fangled Fire Lance. Similarly, power weapons need various Steampunk infernal devices to be invented.

(x) Who needs a Vox when you have a Heliograph.....

Don't the tau have a javelin?

Melissia wrote:That's Imperial Armour 1, which I think is horrendously outdated by now.

I mean the effectiveness of a mere 14 inches of steel? The Abrams, which is a much lighter tank which the Land Raider is pretty obviously intended to be better armor than, has armor equivalent to roughly sixty inches.

Volume II actually. and it makes sense, back when 40k was made no one knew anything about chobham armor so they just made it some reasonable high effectiveness, little did they know what we were actually making in the R&D labs.

freecloud wrote:On a sligtly different tack, my IG are Praetorians and I built them as a Steampunk/Victorian Sci Fi outfit, so they have some of the weapons of that era, anmd it was interesting to map them out.

1: The Lasgun is comparable to battle rifles, IE, 7.62x51mm. It actually has a variant equivalent to modern 5.65mm assault rifles, called the Lascarbine, which is given to assault units or purchased by mercenaries because the standard lasgun is, well, a full battle rifle rather than an assault rifle (source on this is Dark Heresy).

2: A heavy stubber is equivalent to an HMG (even directly compared to one I believe), and a Heavy Bolter is better than a Heavy Stubber.

3: It varies from source to source, but I would say no, it's more akin to a small, rapidly firing tank cannon. Keep in mind that a mere step up from it is the Leman Russ Battle Cannon, which is one of the best tank cannons in the 40k galaxy. The LRBT can, in a single shot, knock down a heavily armored orbital lander designed to carry a mechanized company of infantry and destroy everything and everyone inside (source: third Ciaphas Cain book).

4: It's not unreasonable to see anti-tank rocket/missile launchers in a squad when you're expecting tanks. There's also a wide variety of rocket/missile launchers, including more traditional RPG types.

5: WWI and beyond. Grenade Launchers are still used now, though they're more commonly underslung on the rifle nowadays rather than their own weapon.

6: No. Just no.

7: The basilisk is one of the most powerful mobile battlefield weapons anyone in 40k has at their disposal. Why in the name of Holy Terra would something so powerful, in a setting that is thirty eight thousand years in the future, be equivalent to our own artillery pieces?



If you're saying you represent them with such models, sure, that's fine... hell even probably rather cool to look at across the table and all. But fluffwise? They're FAR more powerful than these things you've mentioned.

ChrisWWII wrote:RPGs are DEFINITELY not AP2. AP2 is punching clean through modern MBT armor without a problem. I'd rank them AP3 at best...maybe even AP4. Other than that....I'd say it's pretty accurate overall.

no they're all pretty much going to be ap 2 maybe save for some of the disposable ones, The Javelin, the Panzerfaust 3 and their equivalents are so far ahead of our current armor technology we had to get creative to protect against them. Basically, without the APS's and ERA you're toast without a foot of adamantium between you. And I don't think the Leman russ is ever described as having either, but it and the landraider both have the adamantium, but a terminator with only 2-3 inches of adamantium, not going to stand a chance. Now that refractor field the terminators have, that might do the job.

I would think Terminator suits have far more than that. They're insanely bulky and huge suits of armor on already insanely bulky and huge soldiers.

1: The Lasgun is comparable to battle rifles, IE, 7.62x51mm. It actually has a variant equivalent to modern 5.65mm assault rifles, called the Lascarbine, which is given to assault units or purchased by mercenaries because the standard lasgun is, well, a full battle rifle rather than an assault rifle (source on this is Dark Heresy).

2: A heavy stubber is equivalent to an HMG (even directly compared to one I believe), and a Heavy Bolter is better than a Heavy Stubber.

3: It varies from source to source, but I would say no, it's more akin to a small, rapidly firing tank cannon. Keep in mind that a mere step up from it is the Leman Russ Battle Cannon, which is one of the best tank cannons in the 40k galaxy. The LRBT can, in a single shot, knock down a heavily armored orbital lander designed to carry a mechanized company of infantry and destroy everything and everyone inside (source: third Ciaphas Cain book).

4: It's not unreasonable to see anti-tank rocket/missile launchers in a squad when you're expecting tanks. There's also a wide variety of rocket/missile launchers, including more traditional RPG types.

5: WWI and beyond. Grenade Launchers are still used now, though they're more commonly underslung on the rifle nowadays rather than their own weapon.

6: No. Just no.

7: The basilisk is one of the most powerful mobile battlefield weapons anyone in 40k has at their disposal. Why in the name of Holy Terra would something so powerful, in a setting that is thirty eight thousand years in the future, be equivalent to our own artillery pieces?

1. Yeah pretty much.

2. Close enough if you actually use them like the guy at our store.

3. I still side with the 30mm DU interpretation, only the first versions of rouge trader refers to it as a tank cannon, everywhere else it's it's described as an ... well an autocannon. Which can still be thought of as a tank gun if you don't know a lot about tanks and see a bradley.

4. lol Our praetorian/history buff uses those as mortars.

5.

6.Yeah the first true lascannon equivialent would be the abrams main gun or some of the tank launched HEAT warheads.

7. I think he means just from a looks like, actually I think he means all of this as a counts as and looks like. which the LRBT really IS just a british WWI tank with a turret put on the top.




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Melissia wrote:I would think Terminator suits have far more than that. They're insanely bulky and huge suits of armor on already insanely bulky and huge soldiers.

Trust me what's behind the armor isn't going to matter, and if they do have a foot of adamantium then yeah they have a chance of stopping most Shoulder launched weapons... there was one that had a 1000mm penetration though, that's 40 inches of steel. I still need to find the tank guns versions most shoulder weapons are 80mm warheads most tanks are about 120-152mm well... 120-125mm... god rest your epic soull Chiorny Oriol

I wouldn't even give it that much credit. I'd say the Abrams tank gun is equivalent to the LRBT's gun minus the blast portion. It's a great gun, the one of if not the best in the modern world...

... but the key here is the last two words.

Melissia wrote:
If you're saying you represent them with such models, sure, that's fine... hell even probably rather cool to look at across the table and all. But fluffwise? They're FAR more powerful than these things you've mentioned.

The idea was to use models from that era, exactly - match the red coats and pith helmets. So I have Maxim guns, PomPoms, Hales Rockets, 6 Pounder QF's and a bloody great naval 6 incher on Her Majesty's Land Ship "Basilisk". The GW weapons were put into the contet relative to the time, when a 6" nBval gun was very powerful piece of ordnance. (Actually, looking at what a Basiisk does on table I'd say it wasn't much more than a 20th century 6 incher)

gendoikari87 wrote:
no they're all pretty much going to be ap 2 maybe save for some of the disposable ones, The Javelin, the Panzerfaust 3 and their equivalents are so far ahead of our current armor technology we had to get creative to protect against them. Basically, without the APS's and ERA you're toast without a foot of adamantium between you. And I don't think the Leman russ is ever described as having either, but it and the landraider both have the adamantium, but a terminator with only 2-3 inches of adamantium, not going to stand a chance. Now that refractor field the terminators have, that might do the job.

Javelin and fancy Panzerfaust potentially yes. And of course we had to get creative. That's been the case since the first caveman swung with a rock, and another caveman held up a flat rock to protect himself. Firepower versus defense, over and over and over again. Sooner or later someone has to come up with a bright idea be it star forts, explosive shells, sloped armor or HEAT to break even or pull ahead.

But yes.....as far as real life goes, the RPG-7 is not a MBT killer. It's, at best, a light vehicle killer. Comparing it to the Javelin and Panzerfaust is like comparing an antitank rifle to a Flak 88. They both have the same general job description, but one is far better at it than the other. But, even asssuming the RPG-7 is a 40k light vehicle killer, that puts it at most at AP4 or so like an autocannon. Which, to be honest, I see very little wrong with calling a round from an RPG roughly equivalent to a round from an autocannon.

The point is, the RPG isn't going through termie armor. Space Marine armor, maybe, but Termie armor? No way.

Melissia wrote:I wouldn't even give it that much credit. I'd say the Abrams tank gun is equivalent to the LRBT's gun minus the blast portion. It's a great gun, the one of if not the best in the modern world...

... but the key here is the last two words.

The KEP on the abrams Supposedly (not sure on that, as I have never been able to see any specs on the round) is much better than most Shoulder launched weapons and if 40k krak missiles really are Gen II and not III like it seems, well theyd have to be ap2 as they're several times better than their gen II counterparts..... but also better than their Gen IV coutnerparts.... don't ask it's a long drawn out story of branching technologies that are superficially similar.

freecloud wrote:(Actually, looking at what a Basiisk does on table I'd say it wasn't much more than a 20th century 6 incher)

Aside from the Basilisk having deadlier ammunition, better range, being designed to hit against targets with futuristic and even alien armor protected by things which are unknown to modern science...

ChrisWWII wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
no they're all pretty much going to be ap 2 maybe save for some of the disposable ones, The Javelin, the Panzerfaust 3 and their equivalents are so far ahead of our current armor technology we had to get creative to protect against them. Basically, without the APS's and ERA you're toast without a foot of adamantium between you. And I don't think the Leman russ is ever described as having either, but it and the landraider both have the adamantium, but a terminator with only 2-3 inches of adamantium, not going to stand a chance. Now that refractor field the terminators have, that might do the job.

Javelin and fancy Panzerfaust potentially yes. And of course we had to get creative. That's been the case since the first caveman swung with a rock, and another caveman held up a flat rock to protect himself. Firepower versus defense, over and over and over again. Sooner or later someone has to come up with a bright idea be it star forts, explosive shells, sloped armor or HEAT to break even or pull ahead.

But yes.....as far as real life goes, the RPG-7 is not a MBT killer. It's, at best, a light vehicle killer. Comparing it to the Javelin and Panzerfaust is like comparing an antitank rifle to a Flak 88. They both have the same general job description, but one is far better at it than the other. But, even asssuming the RPG-7 is a 40k light vehicle killer, that puts it at most at AP4 or so like an autocannon. Which, to be honest, I see very little wrong with calling a round from an RPG roughly equivalent to a round from an autocannon.

The point is, the RPG isn't going through termie armor. Space Marine armor, maybe, but Termie armor? No way.

actually the RPG-7 is more powerful than a panzerfaust if your using the PG-7VR round. but even the other versions can get through the armor at the right point without reactive armor which no 40k tank has. and it's only what 85mm warhead. Modern armor had to rapidly evolve to counter RPG threats in the last half of the 20th century. When they used the munroe effect just sloping the armor and thickening it worked but as soon as we started to use the neumann effect metal became obsolete, and even ceramic is vulnerable.

also 40k autocannons don't use solid slugs they fire the equivalent of Anti personel rounds, HE not DU. a DU autocannon would.... well maybe chew through space marine armor but I'm mostly speculating there.


point being Gen III is so far advanced that short of really thick armor or APS or ERA you don't stop it, you just die. It's as if someone were to go back in time and give .50bmg rifles to the egyptians. IRL I don't see any armor being possible that could stand up to a reasonable HEAT round with a reasonable thickness.

gendoikari87 wrote:also 40k autocannons don't use solid slugs they fire the equivalent of Anti personel rounds, HE not DU.

Source?

They don't seem very HE to me. A grenade launcher has more explosion than the autocannon does.

Melissia wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:also 40k autocannons don't use solid slugs they fire the equivalent of Anti personel rounds, HE not DU.

Source?

They don't seem very HE to me. A grenade launcher has more explosion than the autocannon does.

Warhammer 40,000: Wargear the new one. I think the IG codex says the same thing, but i'm not sure.


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Imperial guard codex page 51

Besides do you really think GW would put ap3 autocannons into the game, no, it'd break things bad. Some things are done with game balance in mind and some fluff gets hammered to fit the game to where it's balanced.

Melissia wrote:

freecloud wrote:(Actually, looking at what a Basiisk does on table I'd say it wasn't much more than a 20th century 6 incher)

Aside from the Basilisk having deadlier ammunition, better range, being designed to hit against targets with futuristic and even alien armor protected by things which are unknown to modern science...

Umm...Basilisk has a 6' range and a 4" blast circle in the game - now, given that an Imperial Guardsman is 30mm tall, that gives the Basilisk a range of about 150m and a 6m blast radius.

I've changed my mind - a Victorian 18 pounder is better than that, I'd better take that naval 6 incher off the Basilisk pronto

This brings another good question what would the grid square removal service's main weapon be seeing as it can wipe out a square kilometer.

also the armor would be weaker but here's a good baneblade equivalent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1500_Monster

and yes it was going to have an 800mm Gun on it.

one of these, and yes thats a T-34 beside it:

thankfully the germans didn't understand what a tank was supposed to be, granted theirs were some fierce war machines but true infantry supporters they were not, but great mechanized beasts they were.

No. OBviously, autocannons are firing some kind of solid round. If they were firing HE, there would be some kind of blast rule included. Originally, yes autocannons were mini tank guns, but now they're firing a single slugs at a high rate. Melissia...what do the RPGs say on this, as I trust those sources more than the base rules. Do autocannons act like HE rounds or more like solid slug?

More importantly, we know 40k tanks use composite armor. Composite armor exists to stop HEAT rounds from penetrating effectively, and given that ceramite is basically described in all the fluff as being a ridiculously heat resistant material, I have extreme doubts about the ability of HEAT weapons to do significant damage to a 40k tank. At least a heavily armored one like a Leman Russ....

Edit: I just checked your source, and it was the Hydra flak tank page, and the only piece of evidence is the wording 'filling the skies with a seething curtain of high velocity explosive rounds'. However, on page 68 where the autocannon is described in depth, it is firing 'large calibre, high velocity shells at a prodigious rate'. This says to me that even if the shells are explosive, they rely mostly on theri velocity to get through armor, and the explosion is just an effect to increase damage, kind of like a bolter shell, or a bunker-buster bomb.

Edit 2: The P.1500 isn't the best as the Schwer Gustav gun was much more an artillery piece than tank. A better example might be the Panzer VIII, or the P.1000 Ratte if you want to streatch it.

ChrisWWII wrote:No. OBviously, autocannons are firing some kind of solid round. If they were firing HE, there would be some kind of blast rule included. Originally, yes autocannons were mini tank guns, but now they're firing a single slugs at a high rate. Melissia...what do the RPGs say on this, as I trust those sources more than the base rules. Do autocannons act like HE rounds or more like solid slug?

More importantly, we know 40k tanks use composite armor. Composite armor exists to stop HEAT rounds from penetrating effectively, and given that ceramite is basically described in all the fluff as being a ridiculously heat resistant material, I have extreme doubts about the ability of HEAT weapons to do significant damage to a 40k tank. At least a heavily armored one like a Leman Russ....

Edit: I just checked your source, and it was the Hydra flak tank page, and the only piece of evidence is the wording 'filling the skies with a seething curtain of high velocity explosive rounds'. However, on page 68 where the autocannon is described in depth, it is firing 'large calibre, high velocity shells at a prodigious rate'. This says to me that even if the shells are explosive, they rely mostly on theri velocity to get through armor, and the explosion is just an effect to increase damage, kind of like a bolter shell, or a bunker-buster bomb.

Edit 2: The P.1500 isn't the best as the Schwer Gustav gun was much more an artillery piece than tank. A better example might be the Panzer VIII, or the P.1000 Ratte if you want to streatch it.

your point? they're still not going to make them ap 3 due to game balance issues or rather they'd be too expensive for their role. and modern shoulder launched RPGS are much better than the Gen II's of 40k so they're still likely ap 2 but well never know because we don't have adamantium.

also ceramic only does so much to stop RPG's I think only the abrams front armor can reliably stop most. side and top, not so much.


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The P.1500 isn't the best as the Schwer Gustav gun was much more an artillery piece than tank. A better example might be the Panzer VIII, or the P.1000 Ratte if you want to streatch it.

Unfortunately the moster and ratte were never made, a shame cause we would have won that much earlier.

freecloud wrote:Umm...Basilisk has a 6' range and a 4" blast circle in the game - now, given that an Imperial Guardsman is 30mm tall, that gives the Basilisk a range of about 150m and a 6m blast radius.

I do not believe how ridiculous this post is...

I mean, do you seriously expect measurements in 40k tabletop to be directly representative of fluff?

.....And I'm not sure of your response. Where in Terra's Holy Name did I say autocannons should be AP3? I don't think I did....I conceded that Javelins would pen Termie armor. That's not a problem. My bone of contention is that RPGs won't go through Termie armor, and I don't see any new compelling reason why they should.

Additionally, a few minutes of research shows that no Abrams has been 'lost' to enemy RPG fire. Damaged, yes. Immobilized, yes. But not lost. Heck, most Abrams tanks losses were due to getting accidentally shot by other Abrams tanks, and even then, their armor shrugged off direct hits by APFSDS rounds.

Melissia wrote:

freecloud wrote:Umm...Basilisk has a 6' range and a 4" blast circle in the game - now, given that an Imperial Guardsman is 30mm tall, that gives the Basilisk a range of about 150m and a 6m blast radius.

I do not believe how ridiculous this post is...

I mean, do you seriously expect measurements in 40k tabletop to be directly representative of fluff?

Good Lord - we are talking about about plastic toy soldier weaponry set in a fictional universe 38,000 years hence, made up by a bunch of people from the rainy British midlands over the last 20 years - how can anyone take all this seriously?

"blah blah blah, plastic toy soldiers, blah blah blah"

You may not give a damn about the lore, but the only reason I even care about 40k is because fo the setting. I couldn't give a damn less about the models except as an expression of the setting.

.And I'm not sure of your response. Where in Terra's Holy Name did I say autocannons should be AP3? I don't think I did....I conceded that Javelins would pen Termie armor. That's not a problem. My bone of contention is that RPGs won't go through Termie armor,

ah okay I get your point now. thing is the javelin is rated at only 600mm penetration the rpg 7 with the proper warhead is rated at over 700mm penetration. The javelin is really good but it doesen't need to be as good due to the top down attack mode. at least against vehicles.

Additionally, a few minutes of research shows that no Abrams has been 'lost' to enemy RPG fire. Damaged, yes. Immobilized, yes. But not lost. Heck, most Abrams tanks losses were due to getting accidentally shot by other Abrams tanks, and even then, their armor shrugged off direct hits by APFSDS rounds.

yes, because as I have said ERA screws with RPG's. once that ERA is gone RPG's can still go through the side armor. Frontal armor though is still a no even without it. But this is the abrams most RPG's remain great anti-tank weapons, they aren't just for Light armored vehicles. The challenger is also in the same realm of protection. pretty much if it still uses steel it'll get around it, you need chobham armor and copious amounts of it to stop Heat, even relatively small warheads.


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also on the Grid square removal service I'm not sure about the stats for the vehicle but i'm pretty sure that it's main weapon is going to be a "every model on the field takes a str 3-4 ap 5 hit."

Trust me. We aren't taking this as seriously as the people over at SD.net take Star Wars and Star Trek. Besides, the fluff is what got me into this, and I love cross-over fanfic. So yes, this kind of comparison is important to me.

But yes....that's true, but then again there's only one warhead that can do that for the RPG, and remembering the whole top attack thing for Javelins, I'm beginning to question if they could even successfully lock onto or hit a Terminator. An RPG would have to be a lucky shot too, I doubt it could go through Termie armor predictably regularly.

Also, we have to note that in 40k, infantry armor pen, and vehicle armor pen are considered totally different things. They've developed weapons specifically for the purpouse of getting through Terminator and other forms of heavy armor (plasma weapons). This leads me to believe that there's something about infantry armor that makes it subtly different from tank armor for the purpouses of penetration.

For Flak armor, it's a complex series of ablative and impact absorbent layers. It is an incredibly light, yet effective set of armor that can cover the entire body while not weighing the soldier down or limiting their freedom of movement.

What modern armies would give to have Flak Armor or equivalents.

Carapace is even better, made from densely layered plates of highly durable material whose only real weakness is at the joints. It offers roughly 1.5x the protection of Flak Armor, which itself would be considered a miracle armor in modern times, while increasing the weight for a full, military-grade suit (bootsbracers, pauldrons, chest/back/abdomen plate, graves, helmet) from 11kg for flak armor to 17 kg for carapace armor. A significant increase, but still about the same as a large IOTV used by the US army today. And it is able to absorb impacts and rounds from heavy machineguns.