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I was suprised this thread had still been chugging along.

I postulate that no weapon except nuclear weapons in any arsenel today could penetrate terminator armor.

Modquisiiton on:

Private warnings have been given. Posters are starting to attack other posters. Lets cease that or this thread will be closed and suspensions given. You can have opinions, strongly defended, but not attack other posters. Thanks!

Hey mellissa do you think a full body suit of dragonskin be akin to carapace armor?

as for javelins actually hitting a terminator, probably not, I don't know for sure however.

also as an off topic note missile launchers in 40k as gen II shaped charges are lesser versions of plasma weapons. the warhead compresses the hollow cavity compresses the gas to such a high degree it turns it into a plasma.


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Catyrpelius wrote:I was suprised this thread had still been chugging along.

I postulate that no weapon except nuclear weapons in any arsenel today could penetrate terminator armor.

I don't know, IF IG missile launchers are actually gen II then a good Gen III would probably do the trick as they are several times more effective. Course if you make a big enough blast the armor might survive but the person inside might not if the armor transmits enough of the blast wave.

Except that this is the 41st millenium where the Emperors finest are encased in powered ceramite suits. Your not talking about penetrating steel, your talking about penetrating the best armor that the Imperium or the rest of the galaxy for that matter has ever created.

To compare a modern missile to the ones used by the Imperium and its enemies is like saying that a model T is the same thing as a Mclaren F1, sure they both have 4 tires and a steering wheel and run on gasoline, so they must be the same.

Also the person inside that armor isnt a normal person, its a Space Marine, Defenders of the Universe!

The Javelin I think is fine with caveat that its strength value would be relative to modern armor and not necessarily representative of its performance in 40k.

The barret I think is hard to represent. Its designed as a multipurpose anit-materiale rifle, but the sniper rules I don't think convey that well enough. I think it have an extra rule, you might attribute it to a depleted uranium or AP round, that just automatically gives it that second die for armor penetration. Once again with the caveat of its representation relative to modern armor.

Mark 19, spot on.

The RPG 7 does have a number of grenades it can launch, so I think the IG missile launcher profile is actually quite suitable.

I think It would be interesting to try and build rule set to represent a modern military and see how well you could translate modern doctrine into 40k, to then see how well different 40k armies would fare.

I think it would be interesting, as a 40k army the units would tend to be more heavily loaded equipement, things that other lists have as upgrade would be standard. They would tend to have Imperial Guard stats, maybe with higher leadership values. They would tend to be pricey to pay for a bunch of stuff, but stuff you wouldn't always need. They would likely need special rules that incoporate modern practices to balance that out... say for example, they might cause pinning or improve their own cover saves to represent laying down suppressive or covering fire. They would tend to have more flexible unit size and composition as well as a large number of transport choices. For example 15 models taking 3 humvees or 12 models taking a Bradley. I think you would also tend to see more specialized modes of fire for vehicle mounted weapons, different ammunition.


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Catyrpelius wrote:Except that this is the 41st millenium where the Emperors finest are encased in powered ceramite suits. Your not talking about penetrating steel, your talking about penetrating the best armor that the Imperium or the rest of the galaxy for that matter has ever created.

I think for the sake of a conversation, as opposed to a non-conversation that stops immediately with "its fiction," we should discuss this with a sense of relativity. Where these modern strength values and any armor values are based relative to modern arms and armor; where the front of an Abrams is a AV14 and class 3 body armor is a 5+ and class 4 a 4+ save.

Catyrpelius wrote:Except that this is the 41st millenium where the Emperors finest are encased in powered ceramite suits. Your not talking about penetrating steel, your talking about penetrating the best armor that the Imperium or the rest of the galaxy for that matter has ever created.

To compare a modern missile to the ones used by the Imperium and its enemies is like saying that a model T is the same thing as a Mclaren F1, sure they both have 4 tires and a steering wheel and run on gasoline, so they must be the same.

Also the person inside that armor isnt a normal person, its a Space Marine, Defenders of the Universe!

Bear in mind that in the 41st meillenium much know-how has been lost, and living conditions are pretty poor so:

(i) what the Imperium thinks is sh*t hot tech is probably pretty meh by earlier standards. If you take the dark ages as an example, Western Europe was pretty primitive by Byzantine and Arab standards but had been far more sophisticated in Roman times before. The "best" Western Europe had to offer was pretty laughable until about the 1300's, and there was a net reduction in capability compared to the Greeks and Romans of 1500 years before

(ii) In times of poor living conditions, humans are a lot shorter - so the average Hive city IG trooper could be a 5'0" midget and a Space Marine stands a magnificent 6' (This is pretty much the size diiffs between a noble night and a peasant in much the middle ages).

And Ceramite could just be a fairly easy to make armour because Humanity doesn't know how to manufacture advanced hardened steels anymore.... I mean, given that Humaniy's best tank is about 1920's drive technology.....

I mean to give a sense of the extent of humanities technology, a Rhino wasn't originally a military vehicle, just a piece of mining equipment and now the basis for almost every marine vehicle. Before the Dark Age and the emergence of the Emperor the average military vehicle was probably on par with Land Raiders with specialized vehicles exceeding it.

@Freecloud, while I can see what you're getting at though I don't know if you're quiet expressing it the best way. I think a good example of advancements beyond lost technologies is say something like Damascus steel which through nano-carbon structures, we're just beginning to understand, existed but was lost, and despite modern technology eclipsing that civilization has yet to be able to reproduce that technology.

The way to put 40k technology in a modern context is no to think of it as anyone period of technology. The setting is inherently anachronistic and different aspects of their technology and understanding of it are comparable to different eras. For example, it isn't that Chimeras and Leman Russes are built with 1920's technology its that the battle tactics that employ them have that mindset and that their construction reflects that. The fact is that components of a leman russ exceed the technologies of the 1920's and even with blue prints in that period wouldn't be buildable. Examples are material strength and the technologies to make them surpass that periods capabilities. Few large tanks of the WWI era had large turrets because given the weight restrictions due to engine capabilities turrets exceeded the weight the roof of a tank could support and more supports couldn't be added to bolster that. Also given a battle cannons size, despite large calibre cannons existing, would have been impossible to make in as compact a size at that point in history. IG tanks utilize engines that exceed the technological limits of modern engines.

Aside from anachronism, the other way to look at the Imperiums technology is to consider, that just because they build Chimeras and Leman Russes does not mean those are the best vehicles they could give the guardsmen, just the cheapest, most expendable while battle worthy vehicles suppliable in sufficient numbers. An example of this is the M16 rifle, when design it was envisioned as the best rifle we could supply each soldier; with a number of the M16's advantages over the AK47 tied into its manufacturing process that allowed for a more precision made weapon that fires more stabley and thus more accurately. Well after the M16 was designed there was another effort that was done as a contingency incase we ever went to all out (conventional) war with China or the USSR. It was a variant of the M16 that shared many common parts but was stamped and not milled and sacrificed all the advantages of the M16 over the AK47 in favor of cheaper mass producability, in time of war. That second design is the equivalent of all Imperial military technology, with the exception of space marines. The Adeptus Mechanicus probably make the more fine tuned versions of those vehicles for themselves while supplying to the Imperial Guard the versions for the cheapest highest prouction rates.

I would still like more in depth data on the imperial missile launcher so if any body can find a more in depth description of krak warheads it would be much appreciated. if it's just a gen II then modern shaped charges are much more powerful, but I can't seem to believe that such a simple advance as a coper liner to the cone wouldn't come across in the what, 10,000 years since? I mean even with imperial dogma surely some tech adept has experimented with krak warheads.

There seem to be a number of assumptions that are always made about technology of the 41st millenium. These all center around the school of thought that everything is better because there is access to better technology. While nobody is claiming that advanced technology doesn't exist in the 41st millenium - it must be noted that this technology is not uniformly distributed. Examples of low tech in 40k includes:

The continued use of Cavalry - i.e. rough riders.
The continued use of projectile weapons despite las-weapons being commonplace. In particular - autoguns / stubguns.
The continued use of run of the mill close combat weapons.

While STCs themselves are very advanced, the things they produce range from the mundane to the super advanced. Example: Rhino STC was originally a utility vehicle as opposed to a AFV.

Regarding flak armor. Unless the human anatomy has changed a lot between now and the 41st millenium, while materials become more durable, the limits of body armor is directly related to how much concussive force a human can withstand without sustaining debilitating (or fatal) injury. Marines get around this weakness of the flesh by being fully encased. Flak armor in particular doesn't seem to offer much advantage over modern counterparts as the oft depicted Cadian pattern flak armor leaves significant portion of the arms, side of the torso and legs largely unprotected - (unless IG fatigues are manufactured out of some balistic resisting material like Eldar mesh armor). As the balistics resisting (armored) portions appear to be fastened overtop of the fatigues, they would likely transmit concussive force directly to the body behind, making this sort of armor not much better than modern varieties when something delivering lots of KE, be it bullets or blasts - especially the high powered variety of the far future.

I'm not sure how this could be considered miracle armor - considering that while the armored portions may be proof against conventional 21C small arms, while the guardsman might not die from getting shot burst fire, nothing is stopping them from being maimed by said primitive weapons.

Regarding bolter shells. It is my understanding that bolter shells are consecrated. This would suggest that these aren't made by run-of-the mill peons.

keezus wrote:Regarding bolter shells. It is my understanding that bolter shells are consecrated. This would suggest that these aren't made by run-of-the mill peons.

Some are but not most. Even those considered Lucky or "Holy" by some (such as those used by Marines & Sisters) don't necessarily have some particularly special consecration process applied to them. The majority of Bolter Shells are just very expensive, very effective but not particularly efficient bullets. Consecrated Bolter Shells do exist but they require special workers/process/materials whatever and are generally reserved for very specific applications... generally Chaos, and used only by the elite of elite.



EDIT: That said trying to frame the Technology of 40k (or just about anything in the 40k universe) in a "Realistic" context is really kind of silly. The universe is just so OTT that noting really works when closely examined, the entire thing basically runs on rule of cool. Better to just suspend disbelief than really try and justify/explain everything.

keezus wrote:Regarding flak armor... Flak armor in particular doesn't seem to offer much advantage over modern counterparts ...

I'm not sure how this could be considered miracle armor - considering that while the armored portions may be proof against conventional 21C small arms, while the guardsman might not die from getting shot burst fire, nothing is stopping them from being maimed by said primitive weapons.

Stubbers and autoguns are the equivalent to modern submachineguns and assault rifles and when you consider their strength values and the flak armors ability to resist their armor penetration, it shows flak armor is at least equivalent to modern armor.

Flak armor I wouldn't exactly call it a "miracle" but I'd guess its equivalent to modern armor in some ways and superior in ways not immediately apparent. One is that it could very well be lighter than modern equivalents. That would be fairly signicant from a fatgiue stand point. The next could be that unlike modern balllistic armor, it is designed to protect equally well against blows from close combat weapons. Next most ballistic vest even though they will protect against repeated shooting will eventually fail from it; IG Flak armor may simply fail at a much higher threshold of wear. Those things would make it similar but better than modern armor.

As far as the concusive force of weapons killing the wearer, those are represented by a high strength weapon more easily wounding coupled with the failed armor save. Just because their is a failed save doesn't mean the armor was destroyed. It can mean a number of lethal things: concusive hit, the wound in an unarmored location, or the armor completely being punctured. The joints on a marines armor are probably only as armored as flak armor but the protection from concusive hits and hits in unarmored locations are as much a part of the 3+ armor save as the blocks of armor.

I don't know I've alwasy thought that armor saves should be two part, first the penetrative ability protection and the coverage of the armor. Blast weapons being given appropriate penetrations based on how much force can be transferred by the armor.

40k is just more abstract than that and that would certainly add alot more dice rolling.

Your already hit, your already "wounded," at the point you're rolling your armor save you're rolling to see if the armor did enough to allow you to ignore what ever wound you've taken. A successful armor means your bruised or knocked on your back or have broken limb, but are still able to go on. That whatever wound there was wasn't enough to constitute a full "wound" point. You could even go further and say the abstract level of 40k means that even when you fail your marine isn't dead just so severely incapacitated as to be incapable of continuing to fight.

Its just the abstract level of detail a game of this sort has to take.

I'd like to revisit bolters for a minute here. No matter the type of bolt weapon, all of them should function using the same mechanism. I'm not a physicist nor a ballistics expert, so I'm only going to look at this using the most basic comparisons.

Melissia has posited that:
1. Bolt rounds exit the muzzle at maximum velocity and the rocket motor merely sustains said velocity until propellant is expended - maintaining uniform lethality within the weapon's range.

This is corraborated by the background as all depictions of weapon effect doesn't vary between close and distant targets. Bolt pistols appear to fire the same calibre rounds as bolters. The damage is described as comparable. The only difference is that a bolt pistol has less range. Assuming that Melissia's statement is true: This suggests that both the bolt pistol and bolter ammunition have comparable exit speeds, with the only difference being that the bolt pistol ammunition has less propellant - which fits in line with the smaller profile of the weapon (with range scaling upwards with regards to larger calibre heavy bolters and mega bolters). This is interesting as it would suggest that the length of barrel appears to makes no difference with regards the round exit speed - suggesting no rifling or any barrel related mechanisms to increase round velocity. If anything, it would appear that the round is immediately acclerated to exit velocity by some voodoo charge contained within the shell casing portion of the round and the added length of the (frictionless!) bolter barrel is only there to provide for more accurate two handed long range fire. This is of course, counter-intuitive and probably why gendoikari87 was so adamant that there must be some rocket assisted acceleration associated with the firing process after the bolt round leaves the muzzle.

Also, as bolt pistol rounds are smaller and lighter - by extension they should provide less KE (unless the rounds have a faster exit speed than from a bolter - which is really stretching it), so it would also stand to reason that the kills generated from standard bolt rounds can be mostly attributed to the HE warhead behind the adamantine tip.

40k. The more you try and rationalize it, the stranger it gets.

This is interesting as it would suggest that the length of barrel appears to makes no difference with regards the round exit speed - suggesting no rifling or any barrel related mechanisms to increase round velocity. If anything, it would appear that the round is immediately acclerated to exit velocity by some voodoo charge contained within the shell casing portion of the round and the added length of the (frictionless!) bolter barrel is only there to provide for more accurate two handed long range fire. This is of course, counter-intuitive and probably why gendoikari87 was so adamant that there must be some rocket assisted acceleration associated with the firing process after the bolt round leaves the muzzle.

yes because it breaks the laws of physics. for one it doesn't matter what kind of voodoo charge you have, the longer the barrel the more powerful your round is going to be unless most of the energy comes from the rocket.

The bolt pistol assertions fall apart if you take the advantages of rockets into account. That they can vary their acceleration profile. A bolt pistol may achieve equivalent lethality, despite a shorter barrel diminishing exspulsion power transference to the shell, because the rocket motor initially applies a higher rate of acceleration upon leaving the barrel which would acocunt for a burn off of more fuel resulting in reduced range.

Regardless of being fired from a bolter or bolt pistol, internally the bolter shell would have some way of measuring its speed and acceleration simplely cranking up the rocket motor if it started to slow down, in an attempt to maintain velocity. In a bolt pistol it would simply be measureing that threshold for opening up on the rocket burn right out the barrel to achieve an ideal speed it never initially met. While out of a bolter it achieves that ideal speed and as forces act to decelerate the round the it burns the rocket harder and harder till it runs out of fuel.

That is the only way I can think it could work, while retaning interchangability between bolt weapons and consistent performance.

well I worked it out a page or two back that bolt rounds in order to ONLY maintain their velocity instead of accelerating them would need to be go going about mach 1-2 at muzzel and that was with a small model rocket motor, I recently went down to the local hobby lobby and looked at these the propellant doesn't even fill a quarter of the casing so something with as much propellant with a bolter would actually probably need to be going about mach 3-4 possibly more before the rocket wouldn't do any more.

For something as large as a bolter shell that's extremely fast and extremely high energy.


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40k. The more you try and rationalize it, the stranger it gets.

becaue the people writing your fluff have no clue about physics, but that's okay, their job isn't to be physicists.

gendoikari87 wrote:

40k. The more you try and rationalize it, the stranger it gets.

becaue the people writing your fluff have no clue about physics, but that's okay, their job isn't to be physicists.

If they let engineers write the ruels and fluff no one would play the game as there would be complex differential equations and calculus involved every turn. While the technology behind everything would be air tight the spelling and grammer would be atrocious!

How many engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
...When we're done you won't have to.

An architect, an artist and an engineer were discussing whether it was better to spend time with the wife or a mistress. The architect said he enjoyed time with his wife, building a solid foundation for an enduring relationship. The artist said he enjoyed time with his mistress, because of the passion and mystery he found there. The engineer said, "I like both." "Both?" Engineer: "Yeah. If you have a wife and a mistress, they will each assume you are spending time with the other woman, and you can go to the lab and get some work done."



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The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?"
The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?"
The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?"
The graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?"

aka_mythos wrote:How many engineers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
...When we're done you won't have to.

wow I've never laughed so hard I got a headache before....


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Catyrpelius wrote:An architect, an artist and an engineer were discussing whether it was better to spend time with the wife or a mistress. The architect said he enjoyed time with his wife, building a solid foundation for an enduring relationship. The artist said he enjoyed time with his mistress, because of the passion and mystery he found there. The engineer said, "I like both." "Both?" Engineer: "Yeah. If you have a wife and a mistress, they will each assume you are spending time with the other woman, and you can go to the lab and get some work done."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?"
The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?"
The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?"
The graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?"

actually that first one is an architect an artist and a physicist, because the physicist is supposed to be schrodinger who had both, in fact schrodingers cat came out of a weekend trist with his mistress.

Catyrpelius wrote:If they let engineers write the ruels and fluff no one would play the game as there would be complex differential equations and calculus involved every turn. While the technology behind everything would be air tight the spelling and grammer would be atrocious!

Technical writing was mandatory when I studied engineering. One of the things that they hammer into your head is that there can be no ambiguity whatsoever in proper engineering documentation and report writing. I make no such promises about spelling though.

Technical writing is still big, but no one other then someone required to writes like they do in a tech doc. I think most people heads would explode if they had to read them with any regularity.

keezus wrote:There seem to be a number of assumptions that are always made about technology of the 41st millenium. These all center around the school of thought that everything is better because there is access to better technology. While nobody is claiming that advanced technology doesn't exist in the 41st millenium - it must be noted that this technology is not uniformly distributed. Examples of low tech in 40k includes:

The continued use of Cavalry - i.e. rough riders.
The continued use of projectile weapons despite las-weapons being commonplace. In particular - autoguns / stubguns.
The continued use of run of the mill close combat weapons.

While STCs themselves are very advanced, the things they produce range from the mundane to the super advanced. Example: Rhino STC was originally a utility vehicle as opposed to a AFV.

Regarding flak armor. Unless the human anatomy has changed a lot between now and the 41st millenium, while materials become more durable, the limits of body armor is directly related to how much concussive force a human can withstand without sustaining debilitating (or fatal) injury. Marines get around this weakness of the flesh by being fully encased. Flak armor in particular doesn't seem to offer much advantage over modern counterparts as the oft depicted Cadian pattern flak armor leaves significant portion of the arms, side of the torso and legs largely unprotected - (unless IG fatigues are manufactured out of some balistic resisting material like Eldar mesh armor). As the balistics resisting (armored) portions appear to be fastened overtop of the fatigues, they would likely transmit concussive force directly to the body behind, making this sort of armor not much better than modern varieties when something delivering lots of KE, be it bullets or blasts - especially the high powered variety of the far future.

I'm not sure how this could be considered miracle armor - considering that while the armored portions may be proof against conventional 21C small arms, while the guardsman might not die from getting shot burst fire, nothing is stopping them from being maimed by said primitive weapons.

Yes, that is about my take - The 40K Human Grunts are operating with something like 2000's technology (probably due to cost effeciceincy considerations) with a few "better than todays" (laser weapons, walkers), some "worse thans" (no squad SMG/LMG for eg) and some arcana from the Ancients that they have to have a religious rite to run, but some quite old fashioned stuff is still "good enough" eg Cavalry. The Space Marines clearly have access to a more advanced battlesuit armour than we can build today, but everything else is pretty much available. Their ordnance (based on its blast circle sizes, impact etc - re the point on concussive force) is not much different to modern medium to heavy artillery - as keezus points ot, the physics of a human is about concussive fiorce, and there is no way that a few plates of strap on armour are going to save one from a nucleaar blast, so it calibrates the gun on a Basilisk as a modern c 155mm calibre (and lower range, else you would never see them on a table) .

In fact, as a World War 1/2 player, I am amazed by how easily one can adapt 40K into 1940K! The 1940's Lee&Grant/Sherman tank is a close analogy to the Leman Russ for example. Baneblades etc remind me a lot of the 1930's supertanks in concept.

Some of the Xenos have skimmer technology (humanity does not) and energy weapons that Humans don't, but they are not super-powerful, so clearly there is some implied max energy/portability tradeoff going on.

This doesn't stop game enjoyment - in fact to my mind the backstory of a declining civilisation which had better technology but is largely forgetting it unless it is run with religious rite instead of know how (blessed be the the Holy Service Manual) is compelling, and the physics of the figures is then more believable.

freecloud wrote:Some of the Xenos have skimmer technology (humanity does not) and energy weapons that Humans don't, but they are not super-powerful, so clearly there is some implied max energy/portability tradeoff going on.

This doesn't stop game enjoyment - in fact to my mind the backstory of a declining civilisation which had better technology but is largely forgetting it unless it is run with religious rite instead of know how (blessed be the the Holy Service Manual) is compelling, and the physics of the figures is then more believable.

Have you ever seen a game of 40k played?

Space Marines employ anti gravity technology on a regular basis and to great effect in their Land Speeders.

The standard weapon of the Imperial Guard is the Las Rifle, which is an energy weapon.

This is a universe that has been in an almost constant state of war for the last 1000 years. All of the "civilised", technologicaly advanced cultures are on the brink of being overrun, no one, with the exception of the Tau are advanceing in technology. When your backs against the wall good enough is good enough.

@Catyrpelius - Just because a lasgun requires a higher level of technology than present day arms doesn't make it a better weapon.

Example: A crossbow firing a steel tipped bolt has better armor piercing qualities than flintlock pistols, despite the latter being the product of a "more advanced" technology. It is not inconceivable that a steel AP bolt, loaded into an 18th century 2 handed crossbow might outperform even modern small arms vs modern balistic armor.

The lasgun in particular has always bothered me as it is the most common weapon of the Imperium. Descriptions of its effects vary from being somewhat more powerful than a conventional rifle to being many magnitudes more powerful. Defenders of the higher numbers will gleefully point to examples of stated effect when turned against inorganic targets, conveniently ignoring the fact that the human body's capacity to sustain damage doesn't scale with advances in technology like armor does - and while armor might be able to survive these new weapons of the 41th millenium, it is doubtful the human body behind could survive even a fraction of the hit's side effects - be it KE transfer, heat transfer or other.

Finally, despite advances in armor technology, a Guardsman will still die if he's forcefully stabbed in the face with the most primitive of stone-age weapons - a pointy stick.

Catyrpelius wrote:This is a universe that has been in an almost constant state of war for the last 1000 years. All of the "civilised", technologicaly advanced cultures are on the brink of being overrun, no one, with the exception of the Tau are advanceing in technology. When your backs against the wall good enough is good enough.

The Imperium also advances just slowly,we have experimental torpedoes from Execution Hour,Hellfire bolter shells(variant which uses acids and poisons which are effective against Tyranids who have very,very good immune system).
They reverse engineer personal cloaking device from Tau(Deathwatch),they also had cloak technology long before Tau(Horus Heresy and Kill Team(They cloak five metre shuttle)).
Then we have new space ships classes and advances which happened after Horus Heresy.Power Armor has also improved by little,vehicles also advanced,advances in lance(perfected in M37) and plasma weaponry(they actually innovated and discovered a lost technlogy from Golden Age of Technology).
Adeptus Mechanicus aren't so stangnant(we have planet named Tesla which was full of new experimental weaponry,Codex:Tyranids 5th edition).

Example: A crossbow firing a steel tipped bolt has better armor piercing qualities than flintlock pistols

before anyone starts flaming this is actually true.

also I'd like to know where are the A-10's in 40k, they're still going to be around arent they?

While the A-10 is awesome, it's not THAT awesome. It seems to me that the closest thing would be the Vendetta gunship, or failing that a Marauder Destroyer.