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Correct. Flamers (the unit) have a weapon with an 18" range however, so as long as one of them fires that they can probably nuke your whole unit.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's all one wound pool. And range does not mean that it's a separate wound group inside the pool - only STR, AP, or a special rule can split it out. And even then it only matters for when it gets allocated.

And no matter what, it's all still just one wound pool...I think that's what you're saying, but the message got a little muddled.

Yeah, sorry - still one wound pool just groups inside that pool.

No coffee.

rigeld2 wrote:
Correct. Flamers (the unit) have a weapon with an 18" range however, so as long as one of them fires that they can probably nuke your whole unit.

Gotcha, thats the piece I was having a hard time wrapping my head around.

So, one more time because I'm a "show me" guy and only have a couple of games in since the change and have a tourney coming.

Ten marines using bolters fire at x squad. 5 marines are within 12" so are within double tap range and roll an extra die, the other 5 are within 24", as long as they fire(the 5 out of rapid fire range) ANY/ALL wounds from the wound pool can still spread throughout squad? Even if the 5 rapid fire marines have more wounds left to assign in the event all models within the rapid fire "in range" enemy models are removed and puts their 12" shots out of range during model removal?

First of all, Bolters don't have a 12" range ever. They just get to roll an extra die inside half range, meaning that in your example the extra wounds can be allocated out to 24" as normal for a bolter.

But lets assume they were firing las pistols for some stupid reason. To allocate to a model past 12", yes the Bolters would have to fire. Important note - you don't even have to hit with the longer ranged weapon, just fire it

Rapid fire no longer changes the range of the gun. So no matter what, the max range of that weapon is the same.

 yakface wrote:

Rapid fire no longer changes the range of the gun. So no matter what, the max range of that weapon is the same.

Kinda not my question.

I'll ask another way.

Same 10 marines same firing sequence.

Do I have to roll 10 red colored dice for the "half max range" bolters and 5 blue colored dice for the over "half max range" in order not to over assign the red wounds in the event all enemy models are removed before all red wounds have been determined. (therefor go away because they would be out of range)

For reference:
I get same wound pool, but if I elect to assign bolter wounds that remove models before a melta shot is resolved due to its range limitation. The melta shot goes away.

No. Each firing unit has a max range for its casualties to be pulled from equal to the longest range that any model in the unit fires.

 yakface wrote:

No. Each firing unit has a max range for its casualties to be pulled from equal to the longest range that any model in the unit fires.

OK, that makes it easy.

Thanks.

 Byte wrote:
For reference:
I get same wound pool, but if I elect to assign bolter wounds that remove models before a melta shot is resolved due to its range limitation. The melta shot goes away.

Not true whatsoever. As long as a model is in range of any weapon that was fired from the unit it can be allocated.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's all one wound pool. And range does not mean that it's a separate wound group inside the pool - only STR, AP, or a special rule can split it out. And even then it only matters for when it gets allocated.

How I'm reading the new FAQ, so it's just my opinion and how we've been playing, you'll have to decide for yourself how you and your gaming group are going to play; is that if a model is not in range of the particular weapon when the shooting starts then it can't be hit by that weapon.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Byte wrote:
For reference:
I get same wound pool, but if I elect to assign bolter wounds that remove models before a melta shot is resolved due to its range limitation. The melta shot goes away.

Not true whatsoever. As long as a model is in range of any weapon that was fired from the unit it can be allocated.

O goodness.

Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds
from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within
range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.
half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half
are not)? (p15)
A: No.

I guess I missed the fact I wondered into a RAW/RAI debate. Thanks for the feedback however.

bigbaboonass wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's all one wound pool. And range does not mean that it's a separate wound group inside the pool - only STR, AP, or a special rule can split it out. And even then it only matters for when it gets allocated.

How I'm reading the new FAQ, so it's just my opinion and how we've been playing, you'll have to decide for yourself how you and your gaming group are going to play; is that if a model is not in range of the particular weapon when the shooting starts then it can't be hit by that weapon.

That is not what the FaQ says.

The FaQ says: "Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e. half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half are not)? (p15)
A: No."

Note the FaQ says that if a model was not in range of "any of the shooting models" then it can not be killed by the shooting attack.

Here is a diagram explaining how the new wound allocation works (Follow this post in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390/500992.page#5202843

 DeathReaper wrote:

bigbaboonass wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's all one wound pool. And range does not mean that it's a separate wound group inside the pool - only STR, AP, or a special rule can split it out. And even then it only matters for when it gets allocated.

How I'm reading the new FAQ, so it's just my opinion and how we've been playing, you'll have to decide for yourself how you and your gaming group are going to play; is that if a model is not in range of the particular weapon when the shooting starts then it can't be hit by that weapon.

That is not what the FaQ says.

The FaQ says: "Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e. half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half are not)? (p15)
A: No."

Note the FaQ says that if a model was not in range of "any of the shooting models" then it can not be killed by the shooting attack.

Here is a diagram explaining how the new wound allocation works (Follow this post in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390/500992.page#5202843

As cute as it seems to shoot holes in the FAQ ruling I have to think its not the direction intended. RAW yes, RAI no. If played this way it borders on TFG. Just saying. Would you really play it like this?

Pretty sure it wasn't to permit assault cannons unlimited range because the unit is also firing a HKM.

That's exactly how it works. Pre-FAQ, there was no range limitation for wound allocation, just for firing. If, for example, a unit fired 5 flamers, which each covered the same front 7 models out of a 30 model unit, they would cause 35 hits and potentially kill all 30 models.

Now, post-FAQ, if they just fire those 5 flamers, they are limited to killing models within range of those flamers. But if they fire at least one weapon with longer range, wounds may be allocated out to the longest range.

This is an abstraction.

Just like if I have a squad of 20 Chaos Space Marines firing bolters at a unit if 5 IG, and one of those IG is completely out of LOS around the corner of a building, my 40 bolter shots cannot kill that last guy, but if ONE of my CSMs has LOS to that guy around the corner, those 40 bolter shows now CAN kill that guy around the corner.

Just like you always needed just one firing model to have LOS, you now also need at least one firing model to have range.

bigbaboonass wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's all one wound pool. And range does not mean that it's a separate wound group inside the pool - only STR, AP, or a special rule can split it out. And even then it only matters for when it gets allocated.

How I'm reading the new FAQ, so it's just my opinion and how we've been playing, you'll have to decide for yourself how you and your gaming group are going to play; is that if a model is not in range of the particular weapon when the shooting starts then it can't be hit by that weapon.

Right -house rules are fine, but that's how the FAQ reads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Byte wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

bigbaboonass wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's all one wound pool. And range does not mean that it's a separate wound group inside the pool - only STR, AP, or a special rule can split it out. And even then it only matters for when it gets allocated.

How I'm reading the new FAQ, so it's just my opinion and how we've been playing, you'll have to decide for yourself how you and your gaming group are going to play; is that if a model is not in range of the particular weapon when the shooting starts then it can't be hit by that weapon.

That is not what the FaQ says.

The FaQ says: "Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e. half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half are not)? (p15)
A: No."

Note the FaQ says that if a model was not in range of "any of the shooting models" then it can not be killed by the shooting attack.

Here is a diagram explaining how the new wound allocation works (Follow this post in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390/500992.page#5202843

As cute as it seems to shoot holes in the FAQ ruling I have to think its not the direction intended. RAW yes, RAI no. If played this way it borders on TFG. Just saying. Would you really play it like this?

Pretty sure it wasn't to permit assault cannons unlimited range because the unit is also firing a HKM.

Spoiler:

I think it's absolutely intended.

I seriously wonder why people didn't had a problem with this kind of shooting for 4 years and now suddenly it doesn't make sense for a pistol wound to be allocated 20" away.

If you read the FAQ carefully it shows that weapons cannot cause any wounds past their maximum range... So no an assault cannon is not suddenly unlimited range due to a HKM. Anyone who plays it that way is doing it wrong. It could have been worded a lot better.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If you read the FAQ carefully it shows that weapons cannot cause any wounds past their maximum range... So no an assault cannon is not suddenly unlimited range due to a HKM. Anyone who plays it that way is doing it wrong. It could have been worded a lot better.

I underscored the incorrect part of your post (With clarification that the Assault Cannon still needs range to at least 1 model in the target unit to be able to fire at all), and the Orange is not always true.

Scenario: a Razorback with a TL Assault Cannon and a HKM is the firing unit. The target unit is a unit of 4 infantry models, all of these models are in Line of Sight.

Pre FAQ: Only the Assault Cannon from a razorback fires. If the Assault Cannon has range to 1 enemy model, and not the other models in the unit, then four enemy models, in Line of Sight, can be killed (assault cannons have 4 shots).

Post FAQ: Only the Assault Cannon from a razorback fires. If the Assault Cannon has range to 1 enemy model, and not the other models in the unit, then only the enemy model that was in range and in Line of Sight, can be killed.

Post FaQ: The Assault Cannon and HKM from a razorback fires. If the Assault Cannon has range to 1 enemy model, but the HKM has range to all 4 models, in the target unit, then four enemy models, in Line of Sight, can be killed.

All the FAQ says is you must pull models closest first from wounds inflicted by weapons with sufficient range. Like I said it was poorly worded so the rules lawyers jumped all over it immediately.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
All the FAQ says is you must pull models closest first from wounds inflicted by weapons with sufficient range. Like I said it was poorly worded so the rules lawyers jumped all over it immediately.

It was poorly worded and the intent can never be assumed. You are forced to go with what is written. If it was a simple typo or similar that is one thing but this FAQ changed how we play the game.
Don't call everyone a lawyer cos you don't like it.

The FAQ creates a new paradigm in shooting within 40k.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
All the FAQ says is you must pull models closest first from wounds inflicted by weapons with sufficient range. Like I said it was poorly worded so the rules lawyers jumped all over it immediately.

... No, that's not all it says. DR has explained it correctly.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
All the FAQ says is you must pull models closest first from wounds inflicted by weapons with sufficient range. Like I said it was poorly worded so the rules lawyers jumped all over it immediately.

No it doesnt, not at all. It is impossible to read it that way, especially after the excellent explanations here.

Disagree all you want, but the rules are clear on this.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
All the FAQ says is you must pull models closest first from wounds inflicted by weapons with sufficient range.

It doesn't say this at all. DR gave a good explanation on how it works. It goes out and says it plainly: Wounds from Wound pool can be allocated to a Model if any firing model has range to that model. Nothing more, nothing less. (disclaimer: all other wound allocation rules still apply)

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Like I said it was poorly worded so the rules lawyers jumped all over it immediately.

Personally, I found it crystal clear. I guess it must have been poorly worded considering how badly you have misunderstood it.