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Doom of Malan'Tai just got insane,
and maybe some cheesy psykers too

I feel like my FLGS is just gonna keep using the "old" rules until they clear this up a ton...this is pretty absurd...

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Actually, wait are people saying that it's jsut the models that shot?
So if my missile launcher missed I can still wound further than the 24" on my bolters?

Yes, it is just those that shot, not those that hit

As I said, completely idiotic, ugly change to the rules that creates more complication and MORE abstraction, not less.

totally screws things up. re examining FAQ and need to nose a BRB to be sure this does not make 48" bolt pistols. I am assuming the pistols have to atleast be in range to start. If not things just got beyond weird.

barnowl wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Actually, wait are people saying that it's jsut the models that shot?
So if my missile launcher missed I can still wound further than the 24" on my bolters?

Yes, it is just those that shot, not those that hit

As I said, completely idiotic, ugly change to the rules that creates more complication and MORE abstraction, not less.

totally screws things up. re examining FAQ and need to nose a BRB to be sure this does not make 48" bolt pistols. I am assuming the pistols have to atleast be in range to start. If not things just got beyond weird.

No, a firing model still has to be in range of at least one enemy model in the target unit.

The only thing the new ruling does is limit wounds he causes from being allocated onto models in the enemy unit that are out of range from ALL models that are shooting.

barnowl wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Actually, wait are people saying that it's jsut the models that shot?
So if my missile launcher missed I can still wound further than the 24" on my bolters?

Yes, it is just those that shot, not those that hit

As I said, completely idiotic, ugly change to the rules that creates more complication and MORE abstraction, not less.

totally screws things up. re examining FAQ and need to nose a BRB to be sure this does not make 48" bolt pistols. I am assuming the pistols have to atleast be in range to start. If not things just got beyond weird.

No. The FAQ does not override the need for a model to be in range and LOS of at least one enemy model in the target unit in order to fire his weapon (or in other words, a model whose weapon is not in range of at least one enemy is not allowed to roll to hit in the first place). So if a model is only armed with a bolt pistol and there are not any enemy models within 12", that model may not fire and may not roll to hit.

I don't understand the problem with flamers. The range of a flamer is Template, not 0".

 yakface wrote:


No, a firing model still has to be in range of at least one enemy model in the target unit.

The only thing the new ruling does is limit wounds he causes from being allocated onto models in the enemy unit that are out of range from ALL models that are shooting.

Blast templates remian unchanged given thier special rules, correct? So how will this affect a unit of flamers? Will they be only be able to affect the farthest models that the closest flamer can reach as measured by the flame template?

 wyomingfox wrote:

 yakface wrote:


No, a firing model still has to be in range of at least one enemy model in the target unit.

The only thing the new ruling does is limit wounds he causes from being allocated onto models in the enemy unit that are out of range from ALL models that are shooting.

Blast templates remian unchanged given thier special rules, correct? So how will this affect a unit of flamers? Will they be only be able to affect the farthest models that the closest flamer can reach as measured by the flame template?

When has it ever been otherwise? Any models fully or partially under the template are hit.

 wyomingfox wrote:

 yakface wrote:


No, a firing model still has to be in range of at least one enemy model in the target unit.

The only thing the new ruling does is limit wounds he causes from being allocated onto models in the enemy unit that are out of range from ALL models that are shooting.

Blast templates remian unchanged given thier special rules, correct? So how will this affect a unit of flamers? Will they be only be able to affect the farthest models that the closest flamer can reach as measured by the flame template?

Well, if the unit has another longer ranged weapon firing at the same time, then the whole issue is moot.

But yeah, for like a squad of Burnas I guess you'd check range by seeing the furthest any template could hit in the enemy unit.

what about overwatch??

If the unit was charging in how would I determine the range of what gets hit and what not...

 yakface wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:

 yakface wrote:


No, a firing model still has to be in range of at least one enemy model in the target unit.

The only thing the new ruling does is limit wounds he causes from being allocated onto models in the enemy unit that are out of range from ALL models that are shooting.

Blast templates remian unchanged given thier special rules, correct? So how will this affect a unit of flamers? Will they be only be able to affect the farthest models that the closest flamer can reach as measured by the flame template?

Well, if the unit has another longer ranged weapon firing at the same time, then the whole issue is moot.

But yeah, for like a squad of Burnas I guess you'd check range by seeing the furthest any template could hit in the enemy unit.

It's always been that way according to Out of Range.

 Makutsu wrote:
what about overwatch??

If the unit was charging in how would I determine the range of what gets hit and what not...

The same way you work out who gets hit currently and add in the extra limitation of maximum range.

This doesn't change ALL of the rules it just changes one part of the wound pool emptying process.

 yakface wrote:

barnowl wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Actually, wait are people saying that it's jsut the models that shot?
So if my missile launcher missed I can still wound further than the 24" on my bolters?

Yes, it is just those that shot, not those that hit

As I said, completely idiotic, ugly change to the rules that creates more complication and MORE abstraction, not less.

totally screws things up. re examining FAQ and need to nose a BRB to be sure this does not make 48" bolt pistols. I am assuming the pistols have to atleast be in range to start. If not things just got beyond weird.

No, a firing model still has to be in range of at least one enemy model in the target unit.

The only thing the new ruling does is limit wounds he causes from being allocated onto models in the enemy unit that are out of range from ALL models that are shooting.

So if I have an Space Marine Assault squad (pistols and chainswords) with an IC armed with a Stormbolter, and I am firing at a unit of 10 chaos marines, only two of which(closest) are at 12" inches away.

Lets say I get awesome to Hit rolls and cause 7 wounds with the pistols but completely miss with the Stormbolter, I can still kill 7 Chaos dudes, even though only 2 of them are in range of the pistols?

I could outfit a PCS with 3 Flamers and a Lasgun, and wound with my flamers and my PC's pistol up to 24" away?

olcottr wrote:
I could outfit a PCS with 3 Flamers and a Lasgun, and wound with my flamers and my PC's pistol up to 24" away?

No,to use the flamers, at least one of the target models must in its range.

So as long as one model in the PCS is within Template range?

And for an IS, as long as one model in your unit is within half-range with a lasgun, then all models with lasguns can have 2 shots?

I would assume that you would have to measure RF on a per model basis now.

 Makutsu wrote:
I would assume that you would have to measure RF on a per model basis now.

You had to do that before the faq. If only half of your unit was within RF range, then only half could make RF shots.

I think a bigger question is if all of your unit is within RF of 1 enemy model and you roll well, can the shots be allocated beyond that 1 model. RF puts a limit of 12" on bolter range. However, the bolter normally has a 24" range. So, either you can only wound that 1 model, which is how the faq seems to read and is silly or all of them can wound which seems equally silly given the obvious intent.

 Makutsu wrote:
I would assume that you would have to measure RF on a per model basis now.

You always did. Or were you allowing all models to double-tap, so long as one of them was within 12"?

It's not a difficult FAQ to read on its face: if none of the firing models has range to a particular model in the target unit, that model cannot have wounds allocated to it. Practically speaking, I'm guessing 95% of the cases will be resolved by measuring from the model with the longest-range weapon standing closest to the target unit - anything out of his range can't die.

Enceladus wrote:
Not true, i'm afraid. See the Precise Shots and Precise Strikes entry in the BRB. It states any character that rolls 6's to hit in either shooting or CC can allocate the wounds as he sees fit.

Vindicare is different. He has deadshot which is different from precision shot. That faq applies only to the vindi.

 Janthkin wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
I would assume that you would have to measure RF on a per model basis now.

You always did. Or were you allowing all models to double-tap, so long as one of them was within 12"?

It's not a difficult FAQ to read on its face: if none of the firing models has range to a particular model in the target unit, that model cannot have wounds allocated to it. Practically speaking, I'm guessing 95% of the cases will be resolved by measuring from the model with the longest-range weapon standing closest to the target unit - anything out of his range can't die.

Without grouping wounds based on range I think this is the only way that makes sense at this point. Although it does seem to break what the intent appears to be; namely that a given weapon can only harm what it can reach.

 Janthkin wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
I would assume that you would have to measure RF on a per model basis now.

You always did. Or were you allowing all models to double-tap, so long as one of them was within 12"?

It's not a difficult FAQ to read on its face: if none of the firing models has range to a particular model in the target unit, that model cannot have wounds allocated to it. Practically speaking, I'm guessing 95% of the cases will be resolved by measuring from the model with the longest-range weapon standing closest to the target unit - anything out of his range can't die.

oops nevermind, I always fired from gunboats so I guess RF doesn't really matter

Its pretty simple, I fail to see how it is going to take much extra time. You measure the farthest range you got, see which models can be killed, and then measure individual range. Takes maybe 3-4 extra seconds? That is also only when it matters, most of the time it will be pretty straight forward.

olcottr wrote:

It's always been that way according to Out of Range.

No, pre-FAQ, out of range only applied to firing models that were completely out of range of any models at all in the target unit. If a firing model was within range of any model in the target unit, then his wounds could be allocated to any model (within LOS) in that enemy unit.

The FAQ now puts a max range limit on where wounds can be allocated in the target unit.

 Leth wrote:
Its pretty simple, I fail to see how it is going to take much extra time. You measure the farthest range you got, see which models can be killed, and then measure individual range. Takes maybe 3-4 extra seconds? That is also only when it matters, most of the time it will be pretty straight forward.

I didn't think it would take more time. I think it's a stupid way to do things.

 yakface wrote:

olcottr wrote:

It's always been that way according to Out of Range.

No, pre-FAQ, out of range only applied to firing models that were completely out of range of any models at all in the target unit. If a firing model was within range of any model in the target unit, then his wounds could be allocated to any model (within LOS) in that enemy unit.

The FAQ now puts a max range limit on where wounds can be allocated in the target unit.

Oh, we've been doing it wrong then. My mind tends to put in 4E or 5E rules where the 6E is vague.

RF is completely unaffected and can still kill models at full weapon range. All rapid fire says is

If a unit shooting Rapid Fire weapons is found to be partially within half range of the target, the firing models within half range fire two shots, while those further away fire one.

The only situation that isn't straight forward is a template weapon with no other weapons in the unit. (Over watch for templates ignores range so that isn't an issue)
I would say that it would be all models in range of any template in all directions, meaning you have a 7" range i believe.

so, now if you have a 3x3 squad so 9 guys in a square assuming vs another 9 man squad as 3x3.

The first row assuming able to target all 9 of them
The second row the first 6,
and Third row targets 3.

When doing wound allocation if you did the first row first and wounded 3 then the first 3 in the enemy squads unit gets removed, now when resolving the third row you can't wound anything anymore since nothing is in range, so hence you lose the shots.

A better example would be a curved congo line vs an enemy's triangle formation.
Back then you would be able to form a curve line so that every body is JUST in range to shoot the guy at the tip and wound everybody.
But now in order to wound the entire unit you are required to move the extra range.

@Makutsu: that's not even close.

 Makutsu wrote:
so, now if you have a 3x3 squad so 9 guys in a square assuming vs another 9 man squad as 3x3.

The first row assuming able to target all 9 of them
The second row the first 6,
and Third row targets 3.

When doing wound allocation if you did the first row first and wounded 3 then the first 3 in the enemy squads unit gets removed, now when resolving the third row you can't wound anything anymore since nothing is in range, so hence you lose the shots.

A better example would be a curved congo line vs an enemy's triangle formation.
Back then you would be able to form a curve line so that every body is JUST in range to shoot the guy at the tip and wound everybody.
But now in order to wound the entire unit you are required to move the extra range.

In your first example, so long as the first row had range to the back row of the enemy unit all the wounds can be allocated. Wounds go into groups and are resolved, you don't go model by model on what they inflicted.