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 sebster wrote:
Take a look at the real world. You see how many libertarian countries there are? None. Not one.

Communism is fething stupid, and people were still willing to give that crack in a whole bunch of places. Meanwhile, libertarianism hasn't even come close to being attempted, it's high watermark is the odd time a libertarian party has ridden a protest vote to achieve a minor political posting.

I attribute it entirely to a whole lot of people recognizing that they would not do well in a society where the government didn't exist to wipe their noses. They're likely right.

 sebster wrote:
Take a look at the real world. You see how many libertarian countries there are? None. Not one.

Now, now - are you sure you're not forgetting one? Somalia - libertarian paradise, where the free market is unrestricted by cumbersome government regulation.

 Ouze wrote:
Now, now - are you sure you're not forgetting one? Somalia - libertarian paradise, where the free market is unrestricted by cumbersome government regulation.

What's amusing is that I actually believe you'd make that mistake.

 Seaward wrote:
I attribute it entirely to a whole lot of people recognizing that they would not do well in a society where the government didn't exist to wipe their noses. They're likely right.

Of course you'd attribute it to something like. I mean, if you were the type to spend a lot of time thinking about your ideology, then you wouldn't be a libertarian. Instead you're the kind who just thinks up a way of explaining the problem away with a put down of those other people, and that lets you happily carry on believing as you do.

 sebster wrote:
Of course you'd attribute it to something like.

Indeed. It's self-evident.

I mean, if you were the type to spend a lot of time thinking about your ideology, then you wouldn't be a libertarian.

Reality disagrees with you, as it so often does.

 cincydooley wrote:
Fwiw, I thnk the seatbelt law for an adult is a bunch of horsegak too, especially when I can ride my motorcycle without a helmet or seatbelt as often as I'd like.

Unless you happen in to be in in Alabama, California, D.C., Georgia, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, Tennessee, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, or West Virginia; 19 of the 50 states in the US plus D.C.

In your home state of Ohio adults can only ride a motorcycle without a helmet if they have held their license for at least 1 year. Given this, it an unspecified adult may not able ride without a helmet as often as he likes.

 d-usa wrote:

It's more than the recommended limit, but it's a far cry from the "OMG, this guy ate nothing but trans-fats and he is perfectly healthy" that people make it out to be.

In Haub's defense, I assume he collected comprehensive data regarding the nutritional content of what he consumed, and when he consumed it, but that this data was not reported in the CNN article. The issue here seems to be poor journalism being exploited by people who don't want to think critically.

 sebster wrote:

Yeah, because my logic states that health impacts will be absolutely universal and immediate to all people. Try and be a little bit sensible, please.

Why be sensible when you can be hyperbolic?

 dogma wrote:


Unless you happen in to be in in Alabama, California, D.C., Georgia, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, Tennessee, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, or West Virginia; 19 of the 50 states in the US plus D.C.

So less than half the country. Your point?

In your home state of Ohio adults can only ride a motorcycle without a helmet if they have held their license for at least 1 year. Given this, it an unspecified adult may not able ride without a helmet as often as he likes.

Very aware. My statement stands. But you know, thanks for stating gak I already knew.

 Seaward wrote:
Indeed. It's self-evident.

Well, yeah. And if my point was to just state that's what you're doing, your reply would make sense. Except my point was to note what you just did, and explain why you did. You cut the second part out and responded to the first.

Reality disagrees with you, as it so often does.

Ah yes, the reality of all those libertarian societies all across the globe. Look across the globe at all our Randian utopias and despair! I mean, sure they don't actually exist in reality, and unless we're going to pretend that occasionally winning a council position on a local school board counts, the power of libertarians is basically zero. But hey, this is the internet and you're free to claim whatever nonsense you want.

Hah, arguing with these guys on this topic is kind of like playing Street Fighter if Ryu only had Dragon Punch and no other moves. Ultimately it's kind of our fault for plugging in quarters over and over again.

 Ouze wrote:
Hah, arguing with these guys on this topic is kind of like playing Street Fighter if Ryu only had Dragon Punch and no other moves. Ultimately it's kind of our fault for plugging in quarters over and over again.

Very true.

But at least in that case, you can just crouching roundhouse and oki into a fireball trap until he stops getting up.

These guys just don't go down.

 sebster wrote:
Ah yes, the reality of all those libertarian societies all across the globe. Look across the globe at all our Randian utopias and despair! I mean, sure they don't actually exist in reality, and unless we're going to pretend that occasionally winning a council position on a local school board counts, the power of libertarians is basically zero. But hey, this is the internet and you're free to claim whatever nonsense you want.

Such as, "If you actually thought about your ideology, you wouldn't be a libertarian?" That kind of nonsense? Please.

Didn't I just explain to you why there are no libertarian countries? Enough people wouldn't go for it, sebster. People need the government to hold their hand in order to get through life. I don't know why that is - I'm sure you could tell me firsthand - but that's the way of it. Pithy but characteristically ill-informed scorn doesn't make it any less valid an ideology, merely something that our beloved liberals can gang up and pat themselves on the back over before getting back to spending my tax money.

Can't believe that there aren't enough libertarians to even settle one tiny island somewhere...

 d-usa wrote:
Can't believe that there aren't enough libertarians to even settle one tiny island somewhere...

No female libertarians, it'd be a total tropical sausage fest. It's like a regular sausage fest, but with pineapples, mangos and everyone gets lei'd

 Alfndrate wrote:
No female libertarians, it'd be a total tropical sausage fest. It's like a regular sausage fest, but with pineapples, mangos and everyone gets lei'd

I know a few.

 Seaward wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
No female libertarians, it'd be a total tropical sausage fest. It's like a regular sausage fest, but with pineapples, mangos and everyone gets lei'd

I know a few.

I married one.

 Seaward wrote:

 sebster wrote:
Ah yes, the reality of all those libertarian societies all across the globe. Look across the globe at all our Randian utopias and despair! I mean, sure they don't actually exist in reality, and unless we're going to pretend that occasionally winning a council position on a local school board counts, the power of libertarians is basically zero. But hey, this is the internet and you're free to claim whatever nonsense you want.

Such as, "If you actually thought about your ideology, you wouldn't be a libertarian?" That kind of nonsense? Please.

Didn't I just explain to you why there are no libertarian countries? Enough people wouldn't go for it, sebster. People need the government to hold their hand in order to get through life. I don't know why that is - I'm sure you could tell me firsthand - but that's the way of it. Pithy but characteristically ill-informed scorn doesn't make it any less valid an ideology, merely something that our beloved liberals can gang up and pat themselves on the back over before getting back to spending my tax money.

Or, instead of masterbatory and characteristically dismissive scorn, libertarians could remember that America was a libertarian paradise until about 1900. I mean, it was so cool to have company towns and private spy rings police forces and Jim Crowe laws and child labor. Oh man, CHILD LABOR! Like Newsies! Who doesn't love Newsies?!

It's called the Gilded Age for a reason, time to move on.

 Seaward wrote:
Such as, "If you actually thought about your ideology, you wouldn't be a libertarian?" That kind of nonsense? Please.

Didn't I just explain to you why there are no libertarian countries? Enough people wouldn't go for it, sebster. People need the government to hold their hand in order to get through life. I don't know why that is - I'm sure you could tell me firsthand - but that's the way of it. Pithy but characteristically ill-informed scorn doesn't make it any less valid an ideology, merely something that our beloved liberals can gang up and pat themselves on the back over before getting back to spending my tax money.

Just saying 'oh people need government to hold their hand' isn't thinking about the issue. It's the same non-thought that socialists exhibit when they just write off the unpopularity of their movement with false class consciousness.

People are, and don't forget this is the core of your ideology, self-interested and rational (at least, rational enough when taken as a whole). And so when people look at their self interests, they rationally decide they don't want your government free utopia. This is because out in the real world, where interactions are a hell of a lot more complicated than the perfectly informed decision makers acted with complete independance that your philosophy simplistically assumes.