Why I left GW and what I went to instead

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**frozenwastes**

I think the model has potential. I really like the energy waves that support the actual model, but don't like the over the top "he thinks he's the Pope of skeleton-town" look of everything else.

He's much better being used for RPG or other game purposes than having to supplement him with tons of other miniatures (plus the undead he creates during the game). WFBs model count is just so bloated.

**Wayniac**

frozenwastes wrote:
I think the model has potential. I really like the energy waves that support the actual model, but don't like the over the top "he thinks he's the Pope of skeleton-town" look of everything else.

He's much better being used for RPG or other game purposes than having to supplement him with tons of other miniatures (plus the undead he creates during the game). WFBs model count is just so bloated.

But he IS the Pope of Skeleton-town!

**Eldarain**

frozenwastes wrote:
Wayshuba wrote:Just look at the new Nagash model. $105 for TWO sprues. Regardless of the size of the model, it is still only two sprues. The same amount of plastic that is in an Empire Free Company or typical 40k building set in the $33-$35 range. You are paying 350% more for WHAT exactly? If this doesn't plainly tell people they are being blatantly ripped off, I don't know what will. Everytime I see a new GW release now, with the prices constantly escalating upward, for some reason the quote, "A fool and his money are soon parted," always comes to mind.

I think it also might be the first in a series of such kits. By designing the plastic pieces to allow a mostly hollow kit of energy supports and spindly limbs, they were able to make a kit as tall as Nagash with as few sprues as possible. Much like they did for that daemon looking treeman thing for the wood elves release. The Treeman/Durthu though is 40% less for the same two sprues.

I think with this "end times" campaign, we'll see a low sprue spindly big kit for a high price and a double book campaign pack for a variety of armies in series. This will allow GW one last cash grab from their WFB die hards before the game either magically comes back in popularity (unlikely given these campaign books don't seem to be changing anything about the core product) or fades away.

As for myself, I'm still plugging away on my historical projects and playing some WM/H every month or so, with a frenzy of practice games a few times a year as large tournaments approach.

There was the rumor of 9th being much smaller in scope. More akin to Warmahordes. Which is doing much better than Fantasy. The rumor did indicate that this "End times" series would be the catalyst to set up a post-apocalyptic landscape for the smaller system.

**Vermis**

Got beat to most of the alternate IG proxies, but here's a few more:

EM4 Miniatures - plastic and metal.

Prince August - bag o' 80 old Warzone plastics, plus the metals.

Heresy Miniatures troopers. Metal and not the cheapest (though not too bad compared to Militarum Tempestus!) but I've been buying a few to use as stormtroopers, elites, or summat, in anticipation of the plastic trooper kickstarter. Considering how well his resin monster KS is going at the mo, I have high hopes.

**-Loki-**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Eilif wrote:

I took the bait and looked it up. $100 for 5!
As high as it is, actually $20 per model isn't close to the most expensive I've seen, for mounted figures. However it does come close, and it may be the most expensive I've seen for a figure from a "mounted unit" as opposed to a single mounted special character.

I think it's also important to keep in mind unit size?? Now, I have no idea how many of those knights can be in a unit, but what's the minimum?? are you looking at "needing" two or three boxes of those just to have an effective unit?

Five are typically enough, but if you know they will be charging into something particularly tough and killy, ten might be worthwhile. Blood Knights themselves are super tough and killy. So one box, maybe hunt down some extra non command models if you can.

The main problem with Blood Knights is each one is an individual character quality sculpt on an individually sculpted horse. So they were up there price wise with mounted characters when they were sold separately. In GWs infinite wisdom, they offered very little discount when they put them in a box.

**TheAuldGrump**

TheKbob wrote:
I'm seeing cool models in this thread!

I left GW for the poor rules and poor support. The mistreatment of customers and competition was icing.

Reaper minis has gone on to say "I don't sell you minis that you'll paint, just minis that you'll think you'll paint!" (in a cheeky fashion). But that's the truth, you sell them on the thought and not the actual. The problem with GW is that the actual cost far out-strides the thought. I'd probably throw $50 at the Nagash model at the thought of slapping it together someday or making a cool diorama. But at $105? I could get two master-grade level Andrea miniatures shipped to me on my couch at that price. Or I could get me MOAR BANEZ. If you make great models AND price them correctly, people outside of said armies will want to buy it.

$105?! Are they flippin' bat guano insane?

Please tell me that is in Oz dollars, or something.... *Runs off to look.*

Good gravy... they really are nuts over there, aren't they?

The Auld Grump

**Accolade**

TheAuldGrump wrote:
TheKbob wrote:
I'm seeing cool models in this thread!

I left GW for the poor rules and poor support. The mistreatment of customers and competition was icing.

Reaper minis has gone on to say "I don't sell you minis that you'll paint, just minis that you'll think you'll paint!" (in a cheeky fashion). But that's the truth, you sell them on the thought and not the actual. The problem with GW is that the actual cost far out-strides the thought. I'd probably throw $50 at the Nagash model at the thought of slapping it together someday or making a cool diorama. But at $105? I could get two master-grade level Andrea miniatures shipped to me on my couch at that price. Or I could get me MOAR BANEZ. If you make great models AND price them correctly, people outside of said armies will want to buy it.
$105?! Are they flippin' bat guano insane?

Please tell me that is in Oz dollars, or something.... *Runs off to look.*

Good gravy... they really are nuts over there, aren't they?

The Auld Grump

[Tom Kirby assumes control]

Whatever, hater. You should feel privileged we even let you BUY our product! This things are national treasures for God's sake!

[Tom Kirby vacates]

Ouuuff, I see imagines of the old Nagash plastered through my brain...

**jonolikespie**

TheAuldGrump wrote:
$105?! Are they flippin' bat guano insane?

Please tell me that is in Oz dollars, or something.... *Runs off to look.*

Good gravy... they really are nuts over there, aren't they?

The Auld Grump

$150 kangadollars

I don't care how big it is it's only 2 measly sprues. That's

**Yonan**

That's hilarious hahaha. If I cared, I'd say "Ni hao GW" and buy it from China... but I just don't anymore. They've rapidly worked me to apathy, I didn't think it could happen that fast.

**Sean_OBrien**

underfire wargaming wrote:
Selym wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
To some extent GW games vs other games in not a great comparison though. I certainly won't argue that GW games cost more to play they do. But that is a scale of game issue more than a cost of product issue.

People are using Malifaux as a comparison. Sure the game is way cheaper to play, but on a per model basis it is every bit as expensive.

The larger GW issue is that of cost of their rules, cost of updating your army etc. Now its value vs that of other games is relative to how much you enjoy each game. Right now 40k is a bad value for me because I am enjoying playing Malifaux more at the moment. So why spend more on something I'm not enjoying, but if I wanted to play an army scale game and didn't like the smaller scale 40k becomes a better value.

My larger issue is that I cannot honestly intro people to 40k anymore because the buy in from scratch is absurd.

There is certainly a point made here.
Nothing is quite like 40k. If I want to model things for the 40k universe, it's not like there is an alternative line with gothic aesthetics that also fits in 28mm/30mm heroic.
If I want to play a battle on the scale of 40k, the only alternatives are fan-made, and I can't convince any other players to agree to use non-GW rules, as I get accused of trying to powergame, or something else a TFG would do.

If you're in for the 40k style, GW is the only thing currently that works.

But you can always get stuff from Ebay.

Well their is a really good argument to why no one else does 28mm scale gaming on the scale of GW rules, to be honest the game scale just doesn't work, the game scale is out of whack, theirs no mobility or any form of tactics involved once you get too that point your just playing Gun powder aged games. Line up your troops and shoot at each other pretty much sums up what i have seen of that game and is defiantly something i am not interested in. Bring it down to smaller scale multi based units and something work out , like shall we say what Epic 40k was like .

Skirmish Scale Wargames are really the right scale for 28mm miniatures, you don't have to play on a massive 6 x 4 table , you can really focus on painting just a hand full or two of miniatures. You have mobility , usually tactical depth. This also allows gaming companies too expand and supply a line for these types of games much more realistically as very few companies ever go into plastics ( i cannot even begin to tell you the cost of molds, the material is cheap but to invest in the molds is almost unreasonable , unless you know your product is really going to sell or that you have the money too invest in such things). Miniatures a cheap to produce once you have them but sculpting is defiantly not cheap to get a good sculpt and this also must be taken into consideration.

I have seen far too many third party producers producing " Gothic like miniatures" and i think we can honestly say we want something different ( that is not covered in skulls ) and away from that setting. So yes if your into 40k than GW are the only producers of 40k ( well along with Forge world), but in the end, the market is moving towards diversity and this is nothing but good for wargaming as a whole as the more diversity the more healthy wargaming will be .

You are also missing something which is so very elegant in its simplicity... x2.

If you want to play larger scale (28mm vs 15mm) games on a larger scale (companies vs skirmish) - take any one of the hundreds of well written 15mm rule sets and multiply the numbers by two. Now they are a 30mm game. Granted, for a proper game on that scale in that size - you do need a table that works for it...but, that is what you have to deal with if you want to use those sizes.

40K isn't really a large scale game anyway. It is a skirmish game that is bogged down with so much garbage that it barely functions. Every edition makes it worse, every new unit release breaks it further. I was up in Atlanta this past week and happened into a store where there were a couple of people playing 40K (first time I actually have seen it played in a store in over 4 years). It was rather ridiculous. From the start, there was no real maneuvering - no room to maneuver even if the rules were set up for it. It wasn't even a terribly large game as far as I could tell - but skirmish rules on a skirmish table with a hundred or so figures... I watched for about half of a turn, and became bored out of my mind after about 30 minutes of nothing really happening.

**Elemental**

MWHistorian wrote:
For me, it's not just the rules or horrible business practices.
For me, 40k has been ruined by the horrible fluff. It's almost become a parody of itself. Before I left, I was considering starting a Space Wolf army, but now I see Murder McMurderson with his Murderclaws on planet McMurder and I just can't take it seriously anymore. There's always a certain (a lot) suspension of disbelief, but when it gets to the point of just being obviously silly, it ruins it for me. The flying bathtub is just so flat-out stupid that I can't ignore it and has now soured me to the SW. I could never play them even if I did go back to 40k. Now in the game you have loyalist Librarians summoning deamons, shooty ork armies, Khorne armies that are laughed at, tyrannids that are hardly a threat and elite super space marines that are practically useless on the field. The game no longer fits the fluff that I once loved and for me, it was about the fluff.

I reached that point much earlier, with Draigo. I wrote custom fluff for my own Space Marine chapter when I was 14 (all copies have been destroyed, and it will never ever see the light of day) that was less stupid and over-the-top than something which was professionally published.

**Selym**

Elemental wrote:

I reached that point much earlier, with Draigo. I wrote custom fluff for my own Space Marine chapter when I was 14 (all copies have been destroyed, and it will never ever see the light of day)

I know the feeling!

**JoshInJapan**

I stopped buying GW stuff new probably five years ago, when my son was born. I picked up a few things here or there on Ebay, but have mostly shifted my purchasing to Mantic, while looking at games like Songs of Blades and Heroes and Kings of War to use my vast collection of fantasy minis, with Deadzone or possibly 40K 3rd edition for SF.

In the last week or so, I have pretty much decided to avoid everything GW, also for my son. The background material just gets darker and uglier, with even the ostensible good guys committing genocide, and the bad guys bleeding over into torture porn. I have no desire to expose a child to any of that.

**gunslingerpro**

Kojiro wrote:
Since there are a bunch of people here who are familiar with 40K I might as well post this here. It's also relevant because it's kinda where I went when I found myself wanting to play with my GW stuff (and friends who refuse to move to Warmachine).

Click for hi-res.

Spoiler:

I've been impressed with this project since I first saw the link in your sig.

**Kojiro**

gunslingerpro wrote:
[
I've been impressed with this project since I first saw the link in your sig.

Thank you.

Inspiration for it waxes and wanes but each time a few more units get done and the overall look gets a bit prettier. Most of my group started in the 2nd-3rd era when 40K was on a scale much more similar to WM/H and ironically, never played for the rules back then but find them intolerable now. Hence the upgrade. That and all the units done so far simply *feel* more like the 40K of old, at least to us.

If there's any unit/faction in particular you'd like to see, let me know and we'll make up a new version.

**carlos13th**

Selym wrote:
While we're on the subject, anyone mind if I fish for some 40k alternative models, for use in the game?

As in, suitable replacements for IG vehicles and infantry.
I'm genuinely interested.

I don't disagree that GW is a money-sucking vampire who cared more for a 1p coin than a human's life, so don't take the request as an argument in favour of them.

Probably best to start a new thread for that as I imagine other would find it useful rather than it being tucked away in this thread. I am sure people would be happy to help though as some already have.

**Eilif**

JoshInJapan wrote:
I stopped buying GW stuff new probably five years ago, when my son was born. I picked up a few things here or there on Ebay, but have mostly shifted my purchasing to Mantic, while looking at games like Songs of Blades and Heroes and Kings of War to use my vast collection of fantasy minis, with Deadzone or possibly 40K 3rd edition for SF.

In the last week or so, I have pretty much decided to avoid everything GW, also for my son. The background material just gets darker and uglier, with even the ostensible good guys committing genocide, and the bad guys bleeding over into torture porn. I have no desire to expose a child to any of that.

I'm in roughly the same boat with minis, kids and games. The kids-and-40k thing is something I've been thinking on also.

40k is a nihilistic dark place and one that I'm increasingly less fond of, but I think if my son really wants to play it, I'll probably let him when he's old enough. I was powerless to resist it as a teen and it could grab him too. It would definitely take some creative financing though and probably a "paint it before I buy you another unit" philosophy. I shudder to think of how much more expensive the hobby will be in another 8 years or so. Hopefully, he'll stay in the light of indie games, but if he goes to the dark side at least I've become VERY good at seeking out wargaming bargains.

**Vermis**

Eilif wrote:
"paint it before I buy you another unit" philosophy.

Why doesn't that surprise me?

**Eilif**

Vermis wrote:
Eilif wrote:
"paint it before I buy you another unit" philosophy.

Why doesn't that surprise me?

I see somebody may have read my treatise on the issue!
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/08/painting-matters-in-defense-of-hobby.html

Now I'm considering making his allowance dependent on how many of my miniatures he paints.

"Chores can wait son, these minis aren't going to paint themselves!"

**TheAuldGrump**

Eilif wrote:
Vermis wrote:
Eilif wrote:
"paint it before I buy you another unit" philosophy.

Why doesn't that surprise me?

I see somebody may have read my treatise on the issue!
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/08/painting-matters-in-defense-of-hobby.html

Now I'm considering making his allowance dependent on how many of my miniatures he paints.

"Chores can wait son, these minis aren't going to paint themselves!"

This post cannot be exalted enough.

The Auld Grump

**jlopatin**

Eilif wrote:

I'm in roughly the same boat with minis, kids and games. The kids-and-40k thing is something I've been thinking on also.

40k is a nihilistic dark place and one that I'm increasingly less fond of, but I think if my son really wants to play it, I'll probably let him when he's old enough. I was powerless to resist it as a teen and it could grab him too. It would definitely take some creative financing though and probably a "paint it before I buy you another unit" philosophy. I shudder to think of how much more expensive the hobby will be in another 8 years or so. Hopefully, he'll stay in the light of indie games, but if he goes to the dark side at least I've become VERY good at seeking out wargaming bargains.

I dunno Eilif... he may not want to play 40k... there aren't enough trains. If he does want to play he will be welcome to use my Tau or Dark Angels (provided you find him an updated codex).

**Vermis**

Eilif wrote:

I see somebody may have read my treatise on the issue!
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/08/painting-matters-in-defense-of-hobby.html

Ayup.

"Chores can wait son, these minis aren't going to paint themselves!"

**khealos**

I played 40k since the beginning of 3rd edition but quit just before 5th. I've played Necromunda, Mordheim, and even got into Fantasy at the end of 7th beginning of 8th.

I am quitting it due to a variety of reasons - price being the big one, rules being number two. The rules for 40K have been poorly worded and the FAQ's rarely do much to clarify - sometimes making things worse.

I don't like the way 7th edition is playing. Our local 40K population is pretty large but most complain about the way the rules are set up plus the almost requirement of getting your opponents permission to do something. It's difficult to just show up with an army and throw down without horsetrading going on.

Fantasy was fun but I got tired of having to paint blocks of 20 to 40 of things - and the sheer price of having to get those blocks. Plus storage of 100 to 200 models, transport - I'm done.

A friend got me hooked on Dropzone Commander and that is my new game. I'm liquidating my Gee Dub stuff to pay for it. The sad thing is with 7th edition I'm not the only one with that idea.

**TheAuldGrump**

khealos wrote:
Fantasy was fun but I got tired of having to paint blocks of 20 to 40 of things - and the sheer price of having to get those blocks. Plus storage of 100 to 200 models, transport - I'm done.

There is something to be said for that.

Kings of War alleviated it a bit by making the size of the unit base matter, rather than the number of figures on that base - so I have been making small dioramas instead of units.

Doesn't help with the storage and transport, though... in fact it makes it harder.

The Auld Grump

**Ensis Ferrae**

TheAuldGrump wrote:
khealos wrote:
Fantasy was fun but I got tired of having to paint blocks of 20 to 40 of things - and the sheer price of having to get those blocks. Plus storage of 100 to 200 models, transport - I'm done.
There is something to be said for that.

Kings of War alleviated it a bit by making the size of the unit base matter, rather than the number of figures on that base - so I have been making small dioramas instead of units.

Doesn't help with the storage and transport, though... in fact it makes it harder.

The Auld Grump

I "fixed" that GW problem by playing Ogre Kingdoms

**TheAuldGrump**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
TheAuldGrump wrote:
khealos wrote:
Fantasy was fun but I got tired of having to paint blocks of 20 to 40 of things - and the sheer price of having to get those blocks. Plus storage of 100 to 200 models, transport - I'm done.
There is something to be said for that.

Kings of War alleviated it a bit by making the size of the unit base matter, rather than the number of figures on that base - so I have been making small dioramas instead of units.

Doesn't help with the storage and transport, though... in fact it makes it harder.

The Auld Grump

I "fixed" that GW problem by playing Ogre Kingdoms

I know somebody that is playing an Ogre army in Kings of War... with no Ogres.... (He really likes the idea of the Red Goblins.)

The Auld Grump

**Gallahad**

JoshInJapan wrote:
I stopped buying GW stuff new probably five years ago, when my son was born. I picked up a few things here or there on Ebay, but have mostly shifted my purchasing to Mantic, while looking at games like Songs of Blades and Heroes and Kings of War to use my vast collection of fantasy minis, with Deadzone or possibly 40K 3rd edition for SF.

In the last week or so, I have pretty much decided to avoid everything GW, also for my son. The background material just gets darker and uglier, with even the ostensible good guys committing genocide, and the bad guys bleeding over into torture porn. I have no desire to expose a child to any of that.

A bit off topic, but I think there is real value to settings and stories with actual heroes. I know the current trend in fiction is towards "realistic" characters and anti-heroes, but the pendulum has swung too far (looking at you George R. Martin). I happen to know lots of very decent people in the real world, some of whom are honest to goodness heroes. Not everybody in the world is some sort of sadist, tyrant, bigot or pervert, and I'm not really interested in stories or settings wholly populated by such people. It just isn't realistic.

On topic, I haven't played a games-workshop game since the end of sixth edition fantasy. I will still buy their models second hand on occasion, but playing games like Song of Blades and Heroes and home brew sci-fi has really made the whole hobby much more enjoyable. I love plonking down a bunch of nicely painted miniatures for a game of SOBH with friends on nice table. The visual entertainment is fantastic, and the games play fast so I can fit them into my schedule easier.

**Davor**

Was almost thinking of coming back and trying out Fantasy with the Nagash release. Looked at the prices and said "NOPE!"

Way to over priced, not enough value for me and no support once released, so won't even bother. Funny my impulse buys went else where.

**heartserenade**

The price, and how Nagash looks. It looks half cool, but the other half is horrible but not in a good way kind of horrible.

**frozenwastes**

Gallahad wrote:
A bit off topic, but I think there is real value to settings and stories with actual heroes. I know the current trend in fiction is towards "realistic" characters and anti-heroes, but the pendulum has swung too far (looking at you George R. Martin). I happen to know lots of very decent people in the real world, some of whom are honest to goodness heroes. Not everybody in the world is some sort of sadist, tyrant, bigot or pervert, and I'm not really interested in stories or settings wholly populated by such people. It just isn't realistic.

I don't think this is off topic at all. It's applicable to GW's product offerings. There are lots of anti-heroes and villains in 40k and WFB and not a lot of heroes. WFB is a dark fantasy setting and 40k is dark sci-fantasy. And largely heroes are only presented as being heroic in their failure. Like all the loyalist important characters in the Horus Heresy books who stand up against chaos but ultimately fail in their battle for the heart of their legions. Standing up for something but largely being crushed by an uncaring galaxy. And when they do have exceptions, they're like fan-fic caricatures.