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 Galas wrote:
If conscripts don't give cover saves nor they block LOS... why is people shooting Conscripts in the first place?

The only reason to bother shooting conscripts is if they're on an objective. And even then, it's trivial to just assault them off of it with anything even resembling a dedicated assault unit. Even generic assault marines with no upgrades will, point for point, tear conscripts a new donkey-cave.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

Yes. With GK the way I deal with it, is try to land in cover and use my stormbolters (ideally in rapid fire) to deal with hordes.

With the new 40k, if you can see one conscript only, you can inflict any number of casualties on the unit. So, it's entirely possible to shoot them, without being shot back.

But this is possible only on maps with a lot of terrain. In the ITC setup, this really can't happen, the map is effectively a bowling ball.

Then you do the math and figure you 10 man strike squad takes 8 wounds from a full strength 50 man conscript...and actually loses when it gets charged it's kinds like...man whats the point?

Well in the scenario i created, I had line of sight to one conscript, not all 50 could return fire. Maybe he could move his blob, but you're looking at maybe 20 shots tops from the conscripts against a 2+ save from ruins.

But the point is, that's how i play it, if i can. It's not always easy to do that. And, in the case of ITC maps, it's rarely possible.

Even in the situation it is possislbe - you are putting a 210 point unit out to kill maybe 10 3 point guys at max - and don't kid yourself - the scion command squad was going to wipe you out anyways. The blob did it's job to suck you out and make you think shooting 40 anti infantry shoots was going to do something effective.

 Galas wrote:

At least thats how I see it. I still think that the way Commisars works isn't apropiate because it isn't scalable. Is the same efect to a unit of 10 guards that for 50 conscripts for the same price.

And this is the core problem. If the Commissar had diminished effectiveness on blobs of 20+ that would be perfectly acceptable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

Yes. With GK the way I deal with it, is try to land in cover and use my stormbolters (ideally in rapid fire) to deal with hordes.

With the new 40k, if you can see one conscript only, you can inflict any number of casualties on the unit. So, it's entirely possible to shoot them, without being shot back.

But this is possible only on maps with a lot of terrain. In the ITC setup, this really can't happen, the map is effectively a bowling ball.

Then you do the math and figure you 10 man strike squad takes 8 wounds from a full strength 50 man conscript...and actually loses when it gets charged it's kinds like...man whats the point?

Well in the scenario i created, I had line of sight to one conscript, not all 50 could return fire. Maybe he could move his blob, but you're looking at maybe 20 shots tops from the conscripts against a 2+ save from ruins.

But the point is, that's how i play it, if i can. It's not always easy to do that. And, in the case of ITC maps, it's rarely possible.

Even in the situation it is possislbe - you are putting a 210 point unit out to kill maybe 10 3 point guys at max - and don't kid yourself - the scion command squad was going to wipe you out anyways. The blob did it's job to suck you out and make you think shooting 40 anti infantry shoots was going to do something effective.

Well we're talking about how to eliminate conscripts, not if it's a good idea or not. Fundamentally you have to attack the conscripts, because they are either squatting objectives or protecting something you need to get passed them to target.

I'm fine with 50 bodies being hard to remove, but i feel they should be subject to morale losses, with at most a 6+ save.

Even as it is right now, it's really just a minor problem that people are blowing out of proportion. 50 conscripts are actually fairly trival to remove over the course of a couple turns.

 Melissia wrote:

 Galas wrote:
If conscripts don't give cover saves nor they block LOS... why is people shooting Conscripts in the first place?

The only reason to bother shooting conscripts is if they're on an objective. And even then, it's trivial to just assault them off of it with anything even resembling a dedicated assault unit. Even generic assault marines with no upgrades will, point for point, tear conscripts a new donkey-cave.

as has already been pointed out countless times...conscripts actually beat assault units of their same point cost. You just cant argue with math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galas wrote:

At least thats how I see it. I still think that the way Commisars works isn't apropiate because it isn't scalable. Is the same efect to a unit of 10 guards that for 50 conscripts for the same price.

And this is the core problem. If the Commissar had diminished effectiveness on blobs of 20+ that would be perfectly acceptable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

Yes. With GK the way I deal with it, is try to land in cover and use my stormbolters (ideally in rapid fire) to deal with hordes.

With the new 40k, if you can see one conscript only, you can inflict any number of casualties on the unit. So, it's entirely possible to shoot them, without being shot back.

But this is possible only on maps with a lot of terrain. In the ITC setup, this really can't happen, the map is effectively a bowling ball.

Then you do the math and figure you 10 man strike squad takes 8 wounds from a full strength 50 man conscript...and actually loses when it gets charged it's kinds like...man whats the point?

Well in the scenario i created, I had line of sight to one conscript, not all 50 could return fire. Maybe he could move his blob, but you're looking at maybe 20 shots tops from the conscripts against a 2+ save from ruins.

But the point is, that's how i play it, if i can. It's not always easy to do that. And, in the case of ITC maps, it's rarely possible.

Even in the situation it is possislbe - you are putting a 210 point unit out to kill maybe 10 3 point guys at max - and don't kid yourself - the scion command squad was going to wipe you out anyways. The blob did it's job to suck you out and make you think shooting 40 anti infantry shoots was going to do something effective.

Well we're talking about how to eliminate conscripts, not if it's a good idea or not. Fundamentally you have to attack the conscripts, because they are either squatting objectives or protecting something you need to get passed them to target.

I'm fine with 50 bodies being hard to remove, but i feel they should be subject to morale losses, with at most a 6+ save.

We are in agreement then - the units weakness should be leadership. Making them fearless makes them impossible to deal with.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You just cant argue with math.

Actually, I can, because your math sucks and plenty of people have pointed out exactly why your math sucks and why you're wrong.

He also continues to keep doing it, by pulling a scion squad out of thin air that apparently doesn't cost anything either.

You can't just add hundreds of points of models retroactively and then still claim you're making an even comparison.

Yes. He's lying his ass off to try to make a point, it's goddamn insulting.

edit - made a mistake. Commissars can't give orders. Seen this misplayed a few times, brought that assumption in here.

Why dont you guys just make some lists

a full one that you would normally use then theory away with no risk of pulling things out of an assback.

How did they get FRFSRF without an officer?

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, storm bolters are WAY better than they used to be.

I would say Storm Bolters are a wash this edition. Many units get armor saves against them now and the units that the higher RoF would help them with have increased in wounds. I would say SB have not gotten anymore powerful as a result.

 Quickjager wrote:
Many units get armor saves against them now

That's true of every single anti-infantry weapon out there, and thus irrelevant.

 Quickjager wrote:
and the units that the higher RoF would help them with have increased in wounds.

Single-wound minis have, for the most part, stayed single-wound minis.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, storm bolters are WAY better than they used to be.

I would say Storm Bolters are a wash this edition. Many units get armor saves against them now and the units that the higher RoF would help them with have increased in wounds. I would say SB have not gotten anymore powerful as a result.

it doubled in shots with the caviat that people can take saves on them.

i want to say it got better since weight of fire is a good way of dealing with all sorts of things.

No it is entirely relevant because that just means anti-infantry weapons have overall gotten worse. Stormbolters are ironically better at killing other marines now.

EDIT: Weight of fire is good. I just wonder where the meta will settle since I doubt the MEQ profile will be where the majority of models will be.

 Quickjager wrote:
No it is entirely relevant because that just means anti-infantry weapons have overall gotten worse

Four shots against a unit with a 6+ save is better than 2 shots against a unit with no save. Seriously, stop overestimating a 6+ save, it's pretty much garbage.

I mean if we really want to run with these free support units, I can "prove" that a single conscript model, not a squad, just a model, can kill a Knight in a single shot. If it's "supported" by a Shadowsword.

The Shadowsword supporting the conscript fires 6 shots from the volcano cannon, the Knight is a titanic unit so it hits on 3+ for 4 hits. It wounds on 2+ re-rolling failures, so basically all of them wound and the knight probably won't make any of its invuln saves. Each unsaved wound does 2d6 damage with an average of 7, so the Knight loses an average of 28 wounds. It only has 24, so it has a better than 50% chance of dying outright.

Let's just ignore the fact that I took some major leaps by assuming you'd get six shots and no saves, a single 3 point conscript model just killed a Knight in a single shot! Clearly, a single 3 point model killing a 400+ point model in one hit is hilariously OP, let's never mind the nearly 500 points that Shadowsword "support" would cost. I mean that's practically an auto-include anyway so who cares?

 Melissia wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
No it is entirely relevant because that just means anti-infantry weapons have overall gotten worse

Four shots against a unit with a 6+ save is better than 2 shots against a unit with no save. Seriously, stop overestimating a 6+ save, it's pretty much garbage.

You're the grot going on about a 6+ save, get over it. I'm saying that the stormbolter is just a wash overall.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Your on the right track but they are fearless - you have to kill their commanders first which are characters - for that you need snipers - which cost points a lot of points. He can just ignore your whirlwinds unfortunately - they just dont do enough damage.

Commissars are the only ones who can do the "Summary Execution" bit.

Commissars cannot issue Orders.

 Quickjager wrote:
You're the grot going on about a 6+ save

Don't try to lie to me about how you're not complaining about them getting saves again, when not a post before you were whining about them getting saves. I don't have to put up with that crap.

Not a post before lol.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


WW anti infantry missle is 2d6 str 6 shots with 0 AP. It costs over 100 points. It will average 7 hits 6 wounds and 4 kills 3 kills if they are in cover. 9-12 points a turn.
A marine with a frag missle d6 shots average 3-4 -about 3 average hits 2 average wounds. Less than 2 average kills - less than 1 if they have cover. 3-6 points per turn. Marine with a rocket costs 33 points.
TL assault cannon is the best thing we got - 12 shots - 8 hits - 6 wounds - 5 kills. 15 points a turn.

I'd do the math for the conscripts shooting back but I'll let you in on a secrete - the conscripts win vs basically everything.

The math is a tiny fraction of the picture, as others have pointed out. A big blob can rarely bring all its weapons to bear on a target, and a battle isnt decided soley on "points reduction".

Though i bet a TL Assault Cannon Razorback could pretty effectively kite a strung out conscript squad. And if hordes were becoming a problem in my area, I wouldnt take one whirlwind, Id take 3.

Game on - I'll bring 3 units of 50 conscripts - your move.

Well thats easy, the whirlwinds all fire on one squad, do a bunch of casualties and watch as they lose more to their morsle checks. they do this from 72" away, and immune to return fire.

Or do you think there might be other units involved? And maybe 40k involves things other than math.

I look forward to playing against the coscript horde, and hearing about how theyre sweeping tournaments.

Your on the right track but they are fearless - you have to kill their commanders first which are characters - for that you need snipers - which cost points a lot of points. He can just ignore your whirlwinds unfortunately - they just dont do enough damage.

Im afraid you missed the point. If conscrpts are fearless, theyre operating with support. My whirlwinds will also have support, and thats where your mathammer starts to fail. The context is larger than your math models. Im just not going to be afraid of T3, BS 5+, sv. 5+, S 3 gun hordes. It doesn't matter what your argument is, I put my faith in reasonably competetive players to sort it out in actual games.

The problem with mathhammer is that is pure theory. In reality, the terrain, the distribution of the units, etc... plays even a bigger part of how effective a big blob of 50 units can be than they pure stats.

Is like people claiming that 4000 grots could kill a Warlord titan. Yeah, put 4000 grots in 12" of a Warlord titan at the same time. C'mon, do it in a physical and real table

 Desubot wrote:
Why dont you guys just make some lists

a full one that you would normally use then theory away with no risk of pulling things out of an assback.

On that note, I'd created a notional army list when I saw this thread, trying to imagine how a 'Conscript Spam is OP' army-list might look in the 2000pt BAO format:

++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [92 PL, 1999pts] ++

+ HQ +

Company Commander [3 PL, 35pts]: Power axe, Shotgun

Company Commander [3 PL, 35pts]: Power axe, Shotgun

Company Commander [3 PL, 35pts]: Power axe, Shotgun

Tempestor Prime [2 PL, 45pts]: Power axe, Tempestus Command Rod

Tempestor Prime [2 PL, 45pts]: Power axe, Tempestus Command Rod

+ Troops +

Conscripts [6 PL, 150pts]: 50x Conscript

Conscripts [6 PL, 150pts]: 50x Conscript

Conscripts [6 PL, 150pts]: 50x Conscript

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 68pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 68pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 68pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

+ Elites +

Commissar [2 PL, 36pts]: Boltgun, Power axe

Commissar [2 PL, 36pts]: Boltgun, Power axe

Commissar [2 PL, 36pts]: Boltgun, Power axe

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 84pts]
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 84pts]
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 84pts]
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 84pts]
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 84pts]
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun

+ Fast Attack +

Scout Sentinels [2 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Lascannon

Scout Sentinels [2 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Lascannon

Scout Sentinels [2 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Lascannon

+ Heavy Support +

Basilisks [6 PL, 108pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter

Basilisks [6 PL, 108pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter

Basilisks [6 PL, 108pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter

Manticore [7 PL, 133pts]: Heavy Bolter

++ Total: [92 PL, 1999pts] ++

Idea being you deploy the Scout Sentinels aggressively to push back infiltrators and help provide DS bubblewrap; at least one conscript squad serves as additional bubble wrap, while the other two will likely push. IG infantry squads provide a firebase anchor. Scion C2 squads for the obvious AT deep strikes, with Tempestors to drop with them if I need orders. One commissar dedicated to each Conscript squad, with at least two Company Commanders to provide orders (and redundancy against one being picked off) while the third probably hangs back with the firebase.

I don't imagine it'd do terribly, but spending a minimum of 211 points to make an effective 50-man Conscript blob effective should be - is someone arguing that 211 pts for an effective unit is broken? Same points nets you a Commissar and some 36 Ratlings... notional 4+ in cover plus 36" range sniper rifles that cause mortal wounds on a 6+; that should put a dent in something, I'd hope... and that's just a sterile mathhammer/conjecture anecdote using Ratlings.

Regardless, just wanted to throw out a list that spammed the two 'OP' options for IG; in the end, it's real killing power again relies in the IG heavy slot. I have a MechVet list that gives 3 Conquerors and 2 LR Tank Commanders with 4 Tauroxi, for example; I imagine the two armies would bloody each other pretty brutally, Conscripts or not.

Edit: The one mention I wanted to give and forgot to is... this army has 150 Conscripts alone, not counting the rest of the force. Just moving them alone would be a pain; and good luck finding enough terrain to hide each individual squad of 50 while they advance on the enemy (let alone to share with the three 10-man infantry squads).

last warning for this thread.

Play nice or don't play at all.

GhostRecon wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Why dont you guys just make some lists

a full one that you would normally use then theory away with no risk of pulling things out of an assback.

On that note, I'd created a notional army list when I saw this thread, trying to imagine how a 'Conscript Spam is OP' army-list might look in the 2000pt BAO format:

Quite a pickle of a list.

thats a ton of bodies and a decent amount of answers

surprising how much you can fit into 2k

 Galas wrote:
The problem with mathhammer is that is pure theory. In reality, the terrain, the distribution of the units, etc... plays even a bigger part of how effective a big blob of 50 units can be than they pure stats.

Is like people claiming that 4000 grots could kill a Warlord titan. Yeah, put 4000 grots in 12" of a Warlord titan at the same time. C'mon, do it in a physical and real table

This is 100% spot on, and another reason why I prefer maps that are heavy on terrain.

I still maintain that Conscripts should receive a diminished effect from Commissar/Lord Com Summary Execution. You can sacrifice a conscript to negate up to 5 morale casualties. So let's say you lose 20, and roll a 3. You could execute 5 conscripts to negate this effect, rather than losing 15. Still very effective, and more reasonable than 1 loss.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The problem with mathhammer is that is pure theory. In reality, the terrain, the distribution of the units, etc... plays even a bigger part of how effective a big blob of 50 units can be than they pure stats.

Is like people claiming that 4000 grots could kill a Warlord titan. Yeah, put 4000 grots in 12" of a Warlord titan at the same time. C'mon, do it in a physical and real table

This is 100% spot on, and another reason why I prefer maps that are heavy on terrain.

I still maintain that Conscripts should receive a diminished effect from Commissar/Lord Com Summary Execution. You can sacrifice a conscript to negate up to 5 morale casualties. So let's say you lose 20, and roll a 3. You could execute 5 conscripts to negate this effect, rather than losing 15. Still very effective, and more reasonable than 1 loss.

My contribution to the thread would be:

Add a new special rule to conscripts. Something like Get back in line you rabble!; Instead of restricting casualties due to failed morale checks to one, Commissars and Lord Commissars using the Summary Execution rule halve (rounding up, to a minimum of one) all casualties caused by morale to Conscript units.

@GhostRecon, interesting list. My first impression is that for tanged damage output youre really relying on rhe four artillery vehicles. My thinking is that a solid Lascannon-heavy list could strip the long ranged capability of the artillery pretty quickly, which would leave you mostly at 12" range fore good firepower output. It'd be an interesting fight though.

Side note, my math gives 3 TLAC Razorbacks with Captain support kills 22 odd conscripts a turn at 24", whuch is a mighty solid kill rate.

GhostRecon wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The problem with mathhammer is that is pure theory. In reality, the terrain, the distribution of the units, etc... plays even a bigger part of how effective a big blob of 50 units can be than they pure stats.

Is like people claiming that 4000 grots could kill a Warlord titan. Yeah, put 4000 grots in 12" of a Warlord titan at the same time. C'mon, do it in a physical and real table

This is 100% spot on, and another reason why I prefer maps that are heavy on terrain.

I still maintain that Conscripts should receive a diminished effect from Commissar/Lord Com Summary Execution. You can sacrifice a conscript to negate up to 5 morale casualties. So let's say you lose 20, and roll a 3. You could execute 5 conscripts to negate this effect, rather than losing 15. Still very effective, and more reasonable than 1 loss.

My contribution to the thread would be:

Add a new special rule to conscripts. Something like Get back in line you rabble!; Instead of restricting casualties due to failed morale checks to one, Commissars and Lord Commissars using the Summary Execution rule halve (rounding up, to a minimum of one) all casualties caused by morale to Conscript units.

That's certainly faster and easier :3