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Better idea. Just bring some properly supported Khornate Berserkers and eat those conscripts for brunch. Khorne will be pleased at that much bloodshed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
I see you've conveniently forgot to allocate points for your support units again. You seem to do that a lot. :p

You mean the auto include HQ choices that every guard army takes anyways?

If you're saying that it's going to be your entire list, then you've got to pay for the support too because they're part of the list. If you're trying to put the unit in isolation, then it doesn't get any support.

Additionally, Commissars and Priests are elite, not HQ.

You've been making a habit of comparing 300 points of Conscripts with nearly 200 points of support to around 150 points of unsupported enemy units, and acting like it's some kind of travesty that they can win. And you try to pass it off as "150 points of conscripts can stomp a hole in 150 points of other units, if they have 150 more points of conscripts and 200 points of buffs supporting them! Look how OP that is!"

Remember, the cost of buffs is borne by the model granting the buffs, but you DO have to pay for that model.

Or, in the more recent case, if you're trying to use 450 points of conscripts with maximum support your opponent is not going to get a budget of 150 points to oppose them. They're going to have nearly 700 points to work with.

100 shots from these guys generates two wounds vs a typical tank, or one wound vs a hard to hit flyer like stormraven. That's what you exploit here. One volley from assault cannon/sponson stormravens makes the squad more manageable. Hell, I might even start using heavy bolters on my stormravens.

Conscripts definitely can cause some serious problems for people. I think the most significant of which is that its just horrifyingly tedious to play against them.

I like measuring other units against the Inquisition Acolytes.

I get 3 wounds with 5+ for 8 points, So I'm not really sure why people are so frustrated. I can't even imagine someone complaining about the acolytes. For +2 pts I can get a storm bolter. So thats .3 pts more for a storm bolter at the same points-per-wound.

Volume of fire has always been a critically important thing for a D6 based game. I dunno, I guess I just don't care as much about losing?

Melissia wrote:What he's saying is that he's going to make a list of just conscripts and HQ units and nothing else, and he thinks he's going to dominate every tournament with it.

A laughable notion, really.

I would pay to see the look on his face when his Conscripts come up against four Imperial Knights at 2000 points. Somebody mathhammer out how many lasgun shots it takes on average to kill an Imperial Knight...

Martel732 wrote:I can't help but think that I can play around these guys on a typical board with some LoS blocking terrain. It doesn't need to be huge, either, to eclipse half the unit. They're probably too good, but will likely be changed. They're no scatbikes, though, because I can avoid them.

LOS-blocking terrain is huge in 8th, doubly so against Conscripts and IG/AM in general. Because area terrain is back large blobs have a very difficult time gaining cover saves, and it's a lot harder for vehicles to get cover as well.

The Imperial knights will lose the game on objectives, though. 3 pt dudes are strong, for sure. I'll have to see them on the board to determine if they are busted.

Late to the party.

They don't even beat bog-standard assault marines for that matter. Or Seraphim, who aren't even that great at assault (though they do have twin pistols, which is pretty hardcore for causing wounds in different ways)

Powerclaws munch througt Conscripts like a hot knive in butter. Rerolling to wounds, the +1 attack plus the -2 AP that negates the 5+ armour work very nicely.

Whittle them down, assault with DC. DC are for sure anti-horde now, as they are not very effective vs heavy targets anymore without a LOT of expensive wargear. Also, don't forget the stormbolter upgrades on all your vehicles. They add up fast now vs T3 chumps. I think these guys just have one point of armor too much.

Yeah, storm bolters are WAY better than they used to be.

Seems like kite and whittle or bring out the tanks and put them in front is an easy way of dealing with them.

you will have to knock them out of cover but a 4+ save is hardly anything to count on.

4+ save on a 3 pt model is stupid good. That's why I think they should get the crappy flak jackets, which are 6+.

Don't have my book in front of me-- how many units do you need in cover to have the entire squad have the cover save? I know LoS requires ALL the squad to be LoS blocked. With a 50-conscript squad, having all fifty of them in cover is quite a feat.

Martel732 wrote:
4+ save on a 3 pt model is stupid good. That's why I think they should get the crappy flak jackets, which are 6+.

they dont have the model for t shirts on guardsmen. thats probably why they are sitting on 5+

 Melissia wrote:
Don't have my book in front of me-- how many units do you need in cover to have the entire squad have the cover save? I know LoS requires ALL the squad to be LoS blocked. With a 50-conscript squad, having all fifty of them in cover is quite a feat.

iirc most terrain says that the whole unit needs to be within the base of a terrain piece while at the same time also saying that any other model needs to be obscured 50% or something.

its a little confusing from that terrain leak. i dont have my book on hand as well though

If your enemy can put all of his 50 blob conscripts in cover you are playing in a battle with a very big terrain

 Melissia wrote:
Don't have my book in front of me-- how many units do you need in cover to have the entire squad have the cover save? I know LoS requires ALL the squad to be LoS blocked. With a 50-conscript squad, having all fifty of them in cover is quite a feat.

ALL of the models need to be either on or in terrain to gain Cover.

 Melissia wrote:
Don't have my book in front of me-- how many units do you need in cover to have the entire squad have the cover save? I know LoS requires ALL the squad to be LoS blocked. With a 50-conscript squad, having all fifty of them in cover is quite a feat.

The entire squad must be in or on the terrain feature.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The 50% thing is referring to non-infantry. It's basically impossible for a land raider in this edition.

Yeah I don't see conscripts getting cover anywhere near as often as needed for the hypothetical 4+ save to matter until the unit's already been whittled down by enemy fire.

Martel732 wrote:
The Imperial knights will lose the game on objectives, though. 3 pt dudes are strong, for sure. I'll have to see them on the board to determine if they are busted.

Knights can pin the blob in combat, stay relatively safe, and then walk away the last turn to grab objectives. Some missions won't be so easy though.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah I don't see conscripts getting cover anywhere near as often as needed for the hypothetical 4+ save to matter until the unit's already been whittled down by enemy fire.

Agreed, but the 5+ is very effective vs many weapons now. That's why I think they should get the used flak vests for a 6+

Martel732 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah I don't see conscripts getting cover anywhere near as often as needed for the hypothetical 4+ save to matter until the unit's already been whittled down by enemy fire.

Agreed, but the 5+ is very effective vs many weapons now. That's why I think they should get the used flak vests for a 6+

Eh. Speaking from experience-- playing Sisters with Shield of Faith against armor-ignoring attacks-- a 6+ save (most anti-infantry weapons are at least ap-1, reducing the 5+ save to a 6+) really isn't that useful when you need it the most.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Imperial knights will lose the game on objectives, though. 3 pt dudes are strong, for sure. I'll have to see them on the board to determine if they are busted.

Knights can pin the blob in combat, stay relatively safe, and then walk away the last turn to grab objectives. Some missions won't be so easy though.

That will depend on positioning and some rule type things

objectives are now whoever has the most models on it

if they are already on it then you are going to have to mulch them

if you get last turn and its positioned so you can get it but they cant then you are good. (very situational)

and depending on how its played you may or may not be able to sit directly on top denying the enemy the ability to get close enough from any angle. (honestly its a bit cheesy to drive over that ammo dump that you REALLY need with a bane blade)

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


WW anti infantry missle is 2d6 str 6 shots with 0 AP. It costs over 100 points. It will average 7 hits 6 wounds and 4 kills 3 kills if they are in cover. 9-12 points a turn.
A marine with a frag missle d6 shots average 3-4 -about 3 average hits 2 average wounds. Less than 2 average kills - less than 1 if they have cover. 3-6 points per turn. Marine with a rocket costs 33 points.
TL assault cannon is the best thing we got - 12 shots - 8 hits - 6 wounds - 5 kills. 15 points a turn.

I'd do the math for the conscripts shooting back but I'll let you in on a secrete - the conscripts win vs basically everything.

The math is a tiny fraction of the picture, as others have pointed out. A big blob can rarely bring all its weapons to bear on a target, and a battle isnt decided soley on "points reduction".

Though i bet a TL Assault Cannon Razorback could pretty effectively kite a strung out conscript squad. And if hordes were becoming a problem in my area, I wouldnt take one whirlwind, Id take 3.

Game on - I'll bring 3 units of 50 conscripts - your move.

Well thats easy, the whirlwinds all fire on one squad, do a bunch of casualties and watch as they lose more to their morsle checks. they do this from 72" away, and immune to return fire.

Or do you think there might be other units involved? And maybe 40k involves things other than math.

I look forward to playing against the coscript horde, and hearing about how theyre sweeping tournaments.

Your on the right track but they are fearless - you have to kill their commanders first which are characters - for that you need snipers - which cost points a lot of points. He can just ignore your whirlwinds unfortunately - they just dont do enough damage.

Err, snipers can be had for fairly cheap by a lot of armies. Rangers, scout snipers, ratlings, etc.

If conscripts don't give cover saves nor they block LOS... why is people shooting Conscripts in the first place?

I had a good friend of mine that played IG, and his mantra was "If you infantry isn't dying, you aren't playing IG correctly".
A IG player that spam conscripts WANT you to shoot them. Just ignore them. Shoot the tanks, the elite troops, etc... those conscripts LITERALLY can't stop you from shooting whatever you want.

 Melissia wrote:
Err, snipers can be had for fairly cheap by a lot of armies. Rangers, scout snipers, ratlings, etc.

exceptionally available for the imperium

probably a little less so for other factions

But at least the sniper scouts can start costing a lot if you equip them with camo cloaks as modeled. they are a bit more expensive than a tactical squad. not that they are bad at all.

2+ save in cover oh baby.

 Galas wrote:
If conscripts don't give cover saves nor they block LOS... why is people shooting Conscripts in the first place?

I had a good friend of mine that played IG, and his mantra was "If you infantry isn't dying, you aren't playing IG correctly".
A IG player that spam conscripts WANT you to shoot them. Just ignore them. Shoot the tanks, the elite troops, etc... those conscripts LITERALLY can't stop you from shooting whatever you want.

Yeah then people tell you it's your fault if they get in rapid fire range...
Typically - it goes like this.
"Ignore them - they can't hurt anything."
"Oh you let them get in rapid fire range - you got outplayed"
"50 guys killed 8 guys? whats the problem?"

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

Yes. With GK the way I deal with it, is try to land in cover and use my stormbolters (ideally in rapid fire) to deal with hordes.

With the new 40k, if you can see one conscript only, you can inflict any number of casualties on the unit. So, it's entirely possible to shoot them, without being shot back.

But this is possible only on maps with a lot of terrain. In the ITC setup, this really can't happen, the map is effectively a bowling ball.

Then you do the math and figure you 10 man strike squad takes 8 wounds from a full strength 50 man conscript...and actually loses when it gets charged it's kinds like...man whats the point?

Well in the scenario i created, I had line of sight to one conscript, not all 50 could return fire. Maybe he could move his blob, but you're looking at maybe 20 shots tops from the conscripts against a 2+ save from ruins.

But the point is, that's how i play it, if i can. It's not always easy to do that. And, in the case of ITC maps, it's rarely possible.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
If conscripts don't give cover saves nor they block LOS... why is people shooting Conscripts in the first place?

I had a good friend of mine that played IG, and his mantra was "If you infantry isn't dying, you aren't playing IG correctly".
A IG player that spam conscripts WANT you to shoot them. Just ignore them. Shoot the tanks, the elite troops, etc... those conscripts LITERALLY can't stop you from shooting whatever you want.

Yeah then people tell you it's your fault if they get in rapid fire range...
Typically - it goes like this.
"Ignore them - they can't hurt anything."
"Oh you let them get in rapid fire range - you got outplayed"
"50 guys killed 8 guys? whats the problem?"

They are a giant blob of 50 guys running througt the board. I assume you are playing with a full army. A TAC army should had anti-horde weaponry and long range weaponry to be able to attack multiple points or units of the enemy army at once. This is not a binary "Attack their conscripts with everything or just ignore them all the game". You should value the threat the enemy units phose to you to decide what to priorice in every turn of the game. Thats why is fun.

At least thats how I see it. I still think that the way Commisars works isn't apropiate because it isn't scalable. Is the same efect to a unit of 10 guards that for 50 conscripts for the same price.