Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

Yes. With GK the way I deal with it, is try to land in cover and use my stormbolters (ideally in rapid fire) to deal with hordes.

With the new 40k, if you can see one conscript only, you can inflict any number of casualties on the unit. So, it's entirely possible to shoot them, without being shot back.

But this is possible only on maps with a lot of terrain. In the ITC setup, this really can't happen, the map is effectively a bowling ball.

Martel732 wrote:
Are conscripts 5+ to hit?

Yeah but they are 3 points and get 4 shots a turn with orders. They have a 5+ save too. Oh and they will also be fearless - because they have an HQ in their army.

I only want to say that I agree with the sentiment that Grey Knights and Deatwatch should be part of a bigger faction, Inquisition, alongside Sisters of Battle.

But they are their own faction. To say that "They are a specific elite army so they shouldn't be capable of fighting hordes" is just totally bonkers from a balance perspective. They are part of the game, so they should be able to win agains't every other army. Ones could be a easier match-up, and others more hard, ok, I agree with that.
But when the point is "Your Gk can't win agains't hordes, bring IG"... I think that is just absurd from a balance standpoint.

Is like the Imperail Knight army of 7th all over again.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

Yes. With GK the way I deal with it, is try to land in cover and use my stormbolters (ideally in rapid fire) to deal with hordes.

With the new 40k, if you can see one conscript only, you can inflict any number of casualties on the unit. So, it's entirely possible to shoot them, without being shot back.

But this is possible only on maps with a lot of terrain. In the ITC setup, this really can't happen, the map is effectively a bowling ball.

Then you do the math and figure you 10 man strike squad takes 8 wounds from a full strength 50 man conscript...and actually loses when it gets charged it's kinds like...man whats the point?

The point is to find a way around the basic thought process you are bringing. Think outside the box. If you can't do that, this isn't the game for you. Honesty, there are plenty of nerfs with nids I know should happen. I honestly think faints are TOO cheap. 5 ppm is what they should be for HOW good they are in melee

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I honestly feel like arguing with this guy is like yelling at a brick wall, useless. He has it in his mind that his nids should be better than guardsman. Players like him are the reason I'm honestly hoping nids get needed into the ground hard again.

I refer you to my earlier statement:

 Selym wrote:

Not directed at anyone in particular, but being UP in one edition does not justify being OP the next for "revenge". Neither does the reverse make sense. GW flattens some codexes and makes unbeatable others on this principle. It's not "being fair", it's not about "getting your turn". It's about them making money at the expense of our H-H-H-Hobby. The correct solution is genuine attempts at balance.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Are conscripts 5+ to hit?

Yeah but they are 3 points and get 4 shots a turn with orders.

Yes, they can get 4 shots a turn with Orders.

But that actually requires a certain set of circumstances to happen.
1) They need to be within Order range of a model with "Voice of Command"(spoiler: Commissars don't count). Since Conscripts can't take Vox-Casters, that means there needs to be a Company or Platoon Commander within 6" of the Conscripts.
2) They need to not have been targeted by other Orders that turn.
3) They need to be within Rapid Fire range.

FRSRF just changes their Lasguns to Rapid Fire 2.
So at 13-24 inches, those Conscripts are firing 2 shots.
12 inches or less(aka: "Rapid Fire range"), they're firing 4.

They have a 5+ save too. Oh and they will also be fearless - because they have an HQ in their army.

So who's issuing the Orders if you took Lord Commissars as your HQs? And Priests as your Elites?

Yeah, the 5+ save is nasty...

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I honestly feel like arguing with this guy is like yelling at a brick wall, useless. He has it in his mind that his nids should be better than guardsman. Players like him are the reason I'm honestly hoping nids get needed into the ground hard again.

I have 7 armies man. I play literally every kind of matchup. I play hordes - I play mech - I play elites. I have all the horses in this fight. I also know how bad for the game it is to have units like this in the game. An unpointed tank can still be killed by a few las cannons. An underpointed titan still dies when you hit it with lots of melta. Underpriced 50 man blobs can't be removed efficiently and when you factor in the fact that they are more than capable of making back their points during a game...whilst being unkillable...and screening for army...it's easy to see why this unit is being called out in a thread. When people could be complaing about D scythe wraithgard or something.

Adding this to the conversation. I played against an AM army with 2 x 50 man squads of conscripts along with several Leman Russ tanks. I was playing a Khorne CSM list mostly consisting of Predators, Rhinos and Berzerkers.

The mechanics were predictable. In one case, I missed a charge with the Berzerkers, his Platoon Commander issued First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! on one of the conscript squads. The Berzerkers took 7 wounds off 100 lasgun shots, then were charged and wiped out.

In another case, I got the charge with the Berzerkers. In two rounds of combat, the Berzerkers killed nearly 40 conscripts and all but 2 of the rest succumbed to the effects of morale.

Conscripts are a legitimately good unit but I would not call them overpowered. Their greatest strength appears to be taking up space. With 100 conscripts, you can protect a gunline from assault by occupying the entire width of the table. Even with the effects of morale, it takes a lot of wounds to chew through that many models.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Adding this to the conversation. I played against an AM army with 2 x 50 man squads of conscripts along with several Leman Russ tanks. I was playing a Khorne CSM list mostly consisting of Predators, Rhinos and Berzerkers.

The mechanics were predictable. In one case, I missed a charge with the Berzerkers, his Platoon Commander issued First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! on one of the conscript squads. The Berzerkers took 7 wounds off 100 lasgun shots, then were charged and wiped out.

In another case, I got the charge with the Berzerkers. In two rounds of combat, the Berzerkers killed nearly 40 conscripts and all but 2 of the rest succumbed to the effects of morale.

Conscripts are a legitimately good unit but I would not call them overpowered. Their greatest strength appears to be taking up space. With 100 conscripts, you can protect a gunline from assault by occupying the entire width of the table. Even with the effects of morale, it takes a lot of wounds to chew through that many models.

This is why there is no need to change. In one instance they kille 7 models in the other they were murdered by 10. THAT is balance

 techsoldaten wrote:
Adding this to the conversation. I played against an AM army with 2 x 50 man squads of conscripts along with several Leman Russ tanks. I was playing a Khorne CSM list mostly consisting of Predators, Rhinos and Berzerkers.

The mechanics were predictable. In one case, I missed a charge with the Berzerkers, his Platoon Commander issued First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! on one of the conscript squads. The Berzerkers took 7 wounds off 100 lasgun shots, then were charged and wiped out.

In another case, I got the charge with the Berzerkers. In two rounds of combat, the Berzerkers killed nearly 40 conscripts and all but 2 of the rest succumbed to the effects of morale.

Conscripts are a legitimately good unit but I would not call them overpowered. Their greatest strength appears to be taking up space. With 100 conscripts, you can protect a gunline from assault by occupying the entire width of the table. Even with the effects of morale, it takes a lot of wounds to chew through that many models.

Sounds like you played a newb gaurd player that didnt realize he could drop out of combat for no penalty so you never should have gotten 2 rounds of combat. Then he blast your 200 point zerker squad out in the open with his line of lemon russ. - congrats - you killed 20 men - 60 points of conscripts.

 Galas wrote:
I only want to say that I agree with the sentiment that Grey Knights and Deatwatch should be part of a bigger faction, Inquisition, alongside Sisters of Battle.

But they are their own faction. To say that "They are a specific elite army so they shouldn't be capable of fighting hordes" is just totally bonkers from a balance perspective. They are part of the game, so they should be able to win agains't every other army. Ones could be a easier match-up, and others more hard, ok, I agree with that.
But when the point is "Your Gk can't win agains't hordes, bring IG"... I think that is just absurd from a balance standpoint.

Is like the Imperail Knight army of 7th all over again.

Haha. Well, im not saying they shouldnt be able to do it, im just saying that I'm not suprised that they struggle with it, and that I don't mind.

As for 40k balance, I think it's fine to have sub-factions which only really function well as adjunct forces. It enables more variety, but doesnt require shoehorning new units and fluff into the universe.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Adding this to the conversation. I played against an AM army with 2 x 50 man squads of conscripts along with several Leman Russ tanks. I was playing a Khorne CSM list mostly consisting of Predators, Rhinos and Berzerkers.

The mechanics were predictable. In one case, I missed a charge with the Berzerkers, his Platoon Commander issued First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! on one of the conscript squads. The Berzerkers took 7 wounds off 100 lasgun shots, then were charged and wiped out.

In another case, I got the charge with the Berzerkers. In two rounds of combat, the Berzerkers killed nearly 40 conscripts and all but 2 of the rest succumbed to the effects of morale.

Conscripts are a legitimately good unit but I would not call them overpowered. Their greatest strength appears to be taking up space. With 100 conscripts, you can protect a gunline from assault by occupying the entire width of the table. Even with the effects of morale, it takes a lot of wounds to chew through that many models.

Sounds like you played a newb gaurd player that didnt realize he could drop out of combat for no penalty so you never should have gotten 2 rounds of combat. Then he blast your 200 point zerker squad out in the open with his line of lemon russ. - congrats - you killed 20 men - 60 points of conscripts.

You'll find anyway in your mind you can to make them still seem good

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Adding this to the conversation. I played against an AM army with 2 x 50 man squads of conscripts along with several Leman Russ tanks. I was playing a Khorne CSM list mostly consisting of Predators, Rhinos and Berzerkers.

The mechanics were predictable. In one case, I missed a charge with the Berzerkers, his Platoon Commander issued First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! on one of the conscript squads. The Berzerkers took 7 wounds off 100 lasgun shots, then were charged and wiped out.

In another case, I got the charge with the Berzerkers. In two rounds of combat, the Berzerkers killed nearly 40 conscripts and all but 2 of the rest succumbed to the effects of morale.

Conscripts are a legitimately good unit but I would not call them overpowered. Their greatest strength appears to be taking up space. With 100 conscripts, you can protect a gunline from assault by occupying the entire width of the table. Even with the effects of morale, it takes a lot of wounds to chew through that many models.

Sounds like you played a newb gaurd player that didnt realize he could drop out of combat for no penalty so you never should have gotten 2 rounds of combat. Then he blast your 200 point zerker squad out in the open with his line of lemon russ. - congrats - you killed 20 men - 60 points of conscripts.

You'll find anyway in your mind you can to make them still seem good

You are on a whole other level man - you don't even think conscripts are good? LOL.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Adding this to the conversation. I played against an AM army with 2 x 50 man squads of conscripts along with several Leman Russ tanks. I was playing a Khorne CSM list mostly consisting of Predators, Rhinos and Berzerkers.

The mechanics were predictable. In one case, I missed a charge with the Berzerkers, his Platoon Commander issued First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! on one of the conscript squads. The Berzerkers took 7 wounds off 100 lasgun shots, then were charged and wiped out.

In another case, I got the charge with the Berzerkers. In two rounds of combat, the Berzerkers killed nearly 40 conscripts and all but 2 of the rest succumbed to the effects of morale.

Conscripts are a legitimately good unit but I would not call them overpowered. Their greatest strength appears to be taking up space. With 100 conscripts, you can protect a gunline from assault by occupying the entire width of the table. Even with the effects of morale, it takes a lot of wounds to chew through that many models.

Sounds like you played a newb gaurd player that didnt realize he could drop out of combat for no penalty so you never should have gotten 2 rounds of combat. Then he blast your 200 point zerker squad out in the open with his line of lemon russ. - congrats - you killed 20 men - 60 points of conscripts.

You'll find anyway in your mind you can to make them still seem good

You are on a whole other level man - you don't even think conscripts are good? LOL.

Good yes, OP no

Take 50 men conscript. Give them "Catachan" keyword Get comissar and platoon commander with them. Get a searchlight (from FW), and make sure that harker sits close to them. Now enjoy your unit, that can fire down every threat with 100 BS4 reroll one shots. Or add aegis defence line, add priest and Straken, and place all this treasure pack near your artillery and anihilate every deep striking/charging idiot with 200 BS4+ reroll 1 shots or 150(actually 250, after you get an order Fix bayonets!) BS5+ hits in melee.

Mathhammer OP. In real game - supergood, but not total gamebreaker (as Eldar 7th edition and grav-cannon spam was)

 Xenomancers wrote:


WW anti infantry missle is 2d6 str 6 shots with 0 AP. It costs over 100 points. It will average 7 hits 6 wounds and 4 kills 3 kills if they are in cover. 9-12 points a turn.
A marine with a frag missle d6 shots average 3-4 -about 3 average hits 2 average wounds. Less than 2 average kills - less than 1 if they have cover. 3-6 points per turn. Marine with a rocket costs 33 points.
TL assault cannon is the best thing we got - 12 shots - 8 hits - 6 wounds - 5 kills. 15 points a turn.

I'd do the math for the conscripts shooting back but I'll let you in on a secrete - the conscripts win vs basically everything.

The math is a tiny fraction of the picture, as others have pointed out. A big blob can rarely bring all its weapons to bear on a target, and a battle isnt decided soley on "points reduction".

Though i bet a TL Assault Cannon Razorback could pretty effectively kite a strung out conscript squad. And if hordes were becoming a problem in my area, I wouldnt take one whirlwind, Id take 3.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


WW anti infantry missle is 2d6 str 6 shots with 0 AP. It costs over 100 points. It will average 7 hits 6 wounds and 4 kills 3 kills if they are in cover. 9-12 points a turn.
A marine with a frag missle d6 shots average 3-4 -about 3 average hits 2 average wounds. Less than 2 average kills - less than 1 if they have cover. 3-6 points per turn. Marine with a rocket costs 33 points.
TL assault cannon is the best thing we got - 12 shots - 8 hits - 6 wounds - 5 kills. 15 points a turn.

I'd do the math for the conscripts shooting back but I'll let you in on a secrete - the conscripts win vs basically everything.

The math is a tiny fraction of the picture, as others have pointed out. A big blob can rarely bring all its weapons to bear on a target, and a battle isnt decided soley on "points reduction".

Though i bet a TL Assault Cannon Razorback could pretty effectively kite a strung out conscript squad. And if hordes were becoming a problem in my area, I wouldnt take one whirlwind, Id take 3.

Game on - I'll bring 3 units of 50 conscripts - your move.

 Xenomancers wrote:
How is it strawman?

I never said math is useless, that was your statement because you have nothing more than shameful, pathetic strawman arguments to draw back on. I said your assumptions were crap. Your baseline assumptions, derived from ignorance, caused your half-assed theorycrafting to not align with reality.

The fact is, your faulty assumptions cause you to have an overly simplistic view of the situation, which doesn't reflect the actually rather complex reality. For example... yes, guardsmen can theoretically get 4 shots off each... but to have the entire 50-model squad get 4 shots off would require literally everything to go right for the Guard player, and the Guard player's opponent to make every single mistake possible. Which is a ridiculous notion, and one of MANY you have made here-- in fact, you've made a lot of assumptions that are themselves inherently contradictory, like assuming the guard unit is spread out like a wall, and yet also assuming they are all able to get rapid fire and pile in at once, two situations that literally cannot happen at the same time.

And no manner of clever math will save you from bad assumptions.

Were you an accountant operating with this attitude you have, you would not only get your clients in a lot of deep gak, and potentially get yourself put in jail with potentially hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars in debt owed to your clients when you get out.

Thankfully, this is merely a discussion about a dice-based board game whereupon the players move plastic miniatures around, so you don't have any responsibility to be right. Doesn't mean you're not wrong, though.

I see you've conveniently forgot to allocate points for your support units again. You seem to do that a lot. :p

Melissa is 100% correct- although conscripts can perform a couple of tasks well, they cannot possibly do everything to you at once. Try simulating a full unit of charging hormagants vs 25 conscripts, except you get to kill up to 50. Conscripts are designed to be expendable bubble wrap units, so if they're not strung out wide across the opponent's deployment zone edge, your hypothetical opponent has already misplayed severely.

Don't blatantly manipulate numbers in favor of your viewpoint and get all upset when people call out that sort of BS.

The 5+ armor is the worst part, I think. Those conscripts are never getting a full rapid fire off against my lists. Plus, I can tie them down to objectives by taking out the smaller units of real guardsmen or whatever.

 ross-128 wrote:
I see you've conveniently forgot to allocate points for your support units again. You seem to do that a lot. :p

You mean the auto include HQ choices that every guard army takes anyways?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The 5+ armor is the worst part, I think. Those conscripts are never getting a full rapid fire off against my lists. Plus, I can tie them down to objectives by taking out the smaller units of real guardsmen or whatever.

There wont be other gaurdsmen - thats the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Melissa is 100% correct- although conscripts can perform a couple of tasks well, they cannot possibly do everything to you at once. Try simulating a full unit of charging hormagants vs 25 conscripts, except you get to kill up to 50. Conscripts are designed to be expendable bubble wrap units, so if they're not strung out wide across the opponent's deployment zone edge, your hypothetical opponent has already misplayed severely.

Don't blatantly manipulate numbers in favor of your viewpoint and get all upset when people call out that sort of BS.

I don't expect my expensive units to be able to do more than one thing at once...why would I expect a 150 point 50 man to do anything but do better than any other 150 point unit could possibly do? Thats all it needs to do to be OP. BTW there is 0 reason not to stack your blobs as close together as they can be now - no more blast weapons. Plus it helps you spam more 50 man conscript squads.

Won't be other guardsman? You're naive. My list only includes one unit tops of conscripts if at all, and is still a very viable list. There will be plenty of other guardsman for Martel to go after if him and inever fought. You're thinking in a bubble, which doesn't surprise me as a tyranid main player. I could care less if you have "other armies" your mind set is.. well, I can just tel you are the "loads of fun" player in your area

I'm going to bet most guard armies will want to fill out a brigade to maximize CPs. That will mean probably 2 full size conscript units, tops, and 4+ generic infantry or scion squads. Of course there will be other dudes to shoot at.


Side note: And if you think I personally will waste elite/HQ slots to give orders to my cheap, expendable screens, you're either crazy or insulting my intelligence. Their job is to eat wounds, not dish them out. Sinking both points and kill points into a non-optimal, secondary role that won't be improved that much further for a throwaway unit is how to make bad lists.

What he's saying is that he's going to make a list of just conscripts and HQ units and nothing else, and he thinks he's going to dominate every tournament with it.

A laughable notion, really.

I can't help but think that I can play around these guys on a typical board with some LoS blocking terrain. It doesn't need to be huge, either, to eclipse half the unit. They're probably too good, but will likely be changed. They're no scatbikes, though, because I can avoid them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


WW anti infantry missle is 2d6 str 6 shots with 0 AP. It costs over 100 points. It will average 7 hits 6 wounds and 4 kills 3 kills if they are in cover. 9-12 points a turn.
A marine with a frag missle d6 shots average 3-4 -about 3 average hits 2 average wounds. Less than 2 average kills - less than 1 if they have cover. 3-6 points per turn. Marine with a rocket costs 33 points.
TL assault cannon is the best thing we got - 12 shots - 8 hits - 6 wounds - 5 kills. 15 points a turn.

I'd do the math for the conscripts shooting back but I'll let you in on a secrete - the conscripts win vs basically everything.

The math is a tiny fraction of the picture, as others have pointed out. A big blob can rarely bring all its weapons to bear on a target, and a battle isnt decided soley on "points reduction".

Though i bet a TL Assault Cannon Razorback could pretty effectively kite a strung out conscript squad. And if hordes were becoming a problem in my area, I wouldnt take one whirlwind, Id take 3.

Game on - I'll bring 3 units of 50 conscripts - your move.

Well thats easy, the whirlwinds all fire on one squad, do a bunch of casualties and watch as they lose more to their morsle checks. they do this from 72" away, and immune to return fire.

Or do you think there might be other units involved? And maybe 40k involves things other than math.

I look forward to playing against the coscript horde, and hearing about how theyre sweeping tournaments.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sounds like you played a newb gaurd player that didnt realize he could drop out of combat for no penalty so you never should have gotten 2 rounds of combat. Then he blast your 200 point zerker squad out in the open with his line of lemon russ. - congrats - you killed 20 men - 60 points of conscripts.

You do realize that Khorne Berzerkers can fight twice in every combat phase, right?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
I see you've conveniently forgot to allocate points for your support units again. You seem to do that a lot. :p

You mean the auto include HQ choices that every guard army takes anyways?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The 5+ armor is the worst part, I think. Those conscripts are never getting a full rapid fire off against my lists. Plus, I can tie them down to objectives by taking out the smaller units of real guardsmen or whatever.

There wont be other gaurdsmen - thats the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Melissa is 100% correct- although conscripts can perform a couple of tasks well, they cannot possibly do everything to you at once. Try simulating a full unit of charging hormagants vs 25 conscripts, except you get to kill up to 50. Conscripts are designed to be expendable bubble wrap units, so if they're not strung out wide across the opponent's deployment zone edge, your hypothetical opponent has already misplayed severely.

Don't blatantly manipulate numbers in favor of your viewpoint and get all upset when people call out that sort of BS.

I don't expect my expensive units to be able to do more than one thing at once...why would I expect a 150 point 50 man to do anything but do better than any other 150 point unit could possibly do? Thats all it needs to do to be OP. BTW there is 0 reason not to stack your blobs as close together as they can be now - no more blast weapons. Plus it helps you spam more 50 man conscript squads.

You're completely wrong on that last account.

Conscripts have crap firepower. Every conscripts blob is a Manticore you don't have, or several heavy weapons units.

You want to take advantage of the big-ness of a conscript unit to spread it out all across the field in a long line that absorbs the entire enemy first turn charge, then falls back out of combat to allow the actually lethal elements of your army to pulverize the enemy. Because toughness doesn't kill enemies, you want the minimum of conscripts you can get and still have an adequate defense and the rest of the points on support units, like artillery.

I'd guess the "right number" of conscripts might be 50-100, depending on how large the game is.


There will be other guardsmen, because conscripts can't have Plasmaguns or Lascannons.


Also, if we're including the IG's mandatory HQ's, then we should also include the mandatory support the other armies have along, like the Swarmlord, Tervigon, Ghazskull, Wierdboys, Painboys, Celestine, etc.