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 loki old fart wrote:

 Corrode wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Diversity could be the hill Gw dies on, look at marvel comics their sales are worse now than after the 90's crash, this is a time with three movies a year and multiple TV shows but they can barely sell 40k copies of their lead titles, comic shops are closing down as a result.

People don't like Sjw's or the things they push and Gw adopting that will end up the same way.

I'm all for more female models where appropriate like sob, guard and eldar but if they start pushing regressive nonsense I'll boycott all their products, no end of other games to play.

You're an absolute misery of a human being anyway, they won't miss you.

Classy really classy

If 8th turn out as unbalanced as 6th and 7th, that might kill it for many people, and it's starting to look that way.
Has GW learned anything, yes throw your customers a few bones, and they'll come running back tails wagging.

Yeah the balance between codex and index is pretty big and as some armies still have a year to wait its not going away anytime soon, I'm thinking of knocking 40k on the head until all the codex releases are done.

Didn't expect to be here less than six months from release.

HI folks.
The lack of balance in the codex/index lists.Can appear to be superficially down to the need to boost the short term sales.

However, the core rules are incapable of covering the intended and expected game play in 40k.
So the way GW patches the game play with special rules makes the game play impossible to balance long term.

All table top war games abstract the process of interaction to allow for game play flow.

However, 40k seems to abstract the results of the interaction , because it removes important parts of the interaction in the drive to simplify the rules.

 loki old fart wrote:
If 8th turn out as unbalanced as 6th and 7th, that might kill it for many people, and it's starting to look that way.
Has GW learned anything, yes throw your customers a few bones, and they'll come running back tails wagging.

40k has gone from the most popular wargame I know to even more popular with 8th. Many people came back after leaving during earlier edition, but there were also those who got armies out to try it and realised that the 40k isn't the game for them anymore. GW seem to have chosen a direction and style that works for them, which is good. Just means you might want to reflect on if 40k offers what you want to get from a wargame. Noting wrong with it either way.

I don't think GW intend to make either warhammer more balanced than it is now. Frankly, I don't think they need to or should either; it's not a focus of the way GW make games. Other things have a higher priority. If people wanted to play a very balanced competition orientated game they would and do.
Balance does not seem to be key to a game's success (unless that's a selling point); as evident by 40k being hands down the most popular wargame ever made, even during 7th.

FFG's new ground combat game will soak up the players seeking a more balanced game, I wouldn't be surprised to see 40k slip down to 4th place after its release.

hobojebus wrote:
FFG's new ground combat game will soak up the players seeking a more balanced game, I wouldn't be surprised to see 40k slip down to 4th place after its release.

You're adorable.

hobojebus wrote:
FFG's new ground combat game will soak up the players seeking a more balanced game, I wouldn't be surprised to see 40k slip down to 4th place after its release.

If it's unreleased, how would you know if it's going to be balanced?

The release of 8th's rules and the indexes was a welcome breath of fresh air. Overall, it was a decent ground floor that could be tweaked upwards. It's not without its faults, but with such a basic game it would be easy enough to add modules for people who wanted more detail or a different way of handling things for certain parts of the game (like terrain).

However, I think the codexes are pushing the game quickly back into the old form. Ofr one thing, stratagems are the new formations, and GW is willy-nilly dropping them without concern for about how strong they should be - for one thing, in not taking into account unit size for what the Strategem will be used on, nor the relative points worth they should be. We WILL see creep, and by the time we see the full range of codexes, everyone will be clamoring the game has become once again too complex and overbalanced.

And GW will happily sell everyone 9th edition and start the cycle all over again, laughing all the way to the bank.

hobojebus wrote:
FFG's new ground combat game will soak up the players seeking a more balanced game, I wouldn't be surprised to see 40k slip down to 4th place after its release.

How is Runewars doing btw? If FFG were big on balance X-Wing would be, is it?

Not to mention, there are already games soaking up players who want more balanced games (or just prefer a different game play experience). Infinity and King of War/Malifaux (for Sci-Fi and fantasy respectively) around here. Neither are more popular than the respective Warhammer though, which is why I don't think having a well balanced game is as important to success as I wish it were and many here suggest.

 DarkBlack wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
FFG's new ground combat game will soak up the players seeking a more balanced game, I wouldn't be surprised to see 40k slip down to 4th place after its release.

How is Runewars doing btw? If FFG were big on balance X-Wing would be, is it?

Not to mention, there are already games soaking up players who want more balanced games (or just prefer a different game play experience). Infinity and King of War/Malifaux (for Sci-Fi and fantasy respectively) around here. Neither are more popular than the respective Warhammer though, which is why I don't think having a well balanced game is as important to success as I wish it were and many here suggest.

I think HJ is referring to Legion rather than Runewars, It'll most likely take a nip out of 40k but not do any real damage and it'll most likely be fairly balanced for a while till power creep spoils it

hobojebus wrote:
Diversity could be the hill Gw dies on, look at marvel comics their sales are worse now than after the 90's crash, this is a time with three movies a year and multiple TV shows but they can barely sell 40k copies of their lead titles, comic shops are closing down as a result.

People don't like Sjw's or the things they push and Gw adopting that will end up the same way.

I don't think it's the diversity that's killing Marvel; it's the poorly thought out and heavy handed way they are doing it. I doubt the majority of fans are upset that there are more female characters, just that the canon has been retconned in a really transparent manner. GW has the ability to include more diverse characters without much retconning.

GW can do lots to have more female models in 40k without even having to touch the female space marine issue. Guard, Eldar, Necromunda gangs, Chaos cultists etc are all groups which are probably going to get new models over the next few years, and could easily have some female models on the sprues with no great outrage or retcons. In fact I suspect everyone would welcome as such. Would anyone be upset if House Cawdor was 50/50 gender wise?

I think that would be neat.

Herzlos wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Diversity could be the hill Gw dies on, look at marvel comics their sales are worse now than after the 90's crash, this is a time with three movies a year and multiple TV shows but they can barely sell 40k copies of their lead titles, comic shops are closing down as a result.

People don't like Sjw's or the things they push and Gw adopting that will end up the same way.

I don't think it's the diversity that's killing Marvel; it's the poorly thought out and heavy handed way they are doing it. I doubt the majority of fans are upset that there are more female characters, just that the canon has been retconned in a really transparent manner. GW has the ability to include more diverse characters without much retconning.

Yeah, it's diversity for the sake of diversity. The characters are all paper-thin, poorly-written and mostly come out of nowhere, and are obviously meant to "replace" the older ones. Or like with Iceman they've made pretty drastic and sudden changes to existing characters for no real reason, taking a character that's been straight for his 60 or so years of existence and just deciding he's gay now because every existing Marvel character needs to be gay/lesbian, female, trans, or an ethnic minority (or all at once).

If they insist on doing it this way, instead of just making new, more diverse characters to sell people, then it needs to be something that's slowly built up to or introduced over time, not a rush job like it has been. But I guess that would require better writing talent or sane editors to reign the bullgak in and I don't think Marvel currently has either.

As for GW and diversity...I don't really feel GW needs to do anything too drastic on that front. The game already feels diverse enough without needing to resort to major retcons, like trying to squeeze in female Marines to appease some group which probably still wouldn't buy them anyway (which is Marvel's problem, they're scoring lots of "diversity points" but the product doesn't sell and it's hurting retailers to the point where some of them have either gotten out of comics or just closed down), the main problem is just that it isn't represented well on the tabletop. Some armies do it okay, like Eldar and now Tau (though it isn't quite as obvious when you're looking at a female Tau unless the helmet is off), but Guard don't have any of that representation even though realistically they should, and likewise Sisters have been almost completely ignored for, in my opinion anyway, no good reason. We don't really "need" female Space Marines because the Sisters basically already fill that role, and they also fit perfectly into the background as-is; GW just needs to get off their asses and make a plastic range for them like yesterday. Why they haven't already, especially when they've been investing money in exploring even more "risky" niche armies like Harlequins and Genestealer Cults the past couple years, blows my mind. It's also not very hard to start introducing more female characters, like they've done with Inquisitor Greyfax and Yvraine recently. They could easily add more diversity without really "ruining" the setting or making it feel forced at all, and I feel like most people playing the game would be all for it.

Anyway, I'd say it's hard to tell whether or not GW have "learned their lesson". They definitely seem to be making at least an effort to turn the ship around, and it seems like it's working out pretty well for them financially. I've heard people claiming that the company is more successful now than they've ever been, even during the LotR bubble. They still have a long way to go though, and hopefully if that's true then it means they'll be more receptive in the future and continue a more customer-friendly trend. Personally I'm still put off by their prices, and sadly I don't think that will ever change. They've kinda tried to address that with the Start Collecting boxes and the odd discounted bundle here and there, but individual kits are still insanely priced, especially characters. $35+ for a single, infantry-sized model is just completely ludicrous to me, that's even more than "boutique" pricing usually is, for mass-produced plastic at that.

hobojebus wrote:
Diversity could be the hill Gw dies on, look at marvel comics their sales are worse now than after the 90's crash, this is a time with three movies a year and multiple TV shows but they can barely sell 40k copies of their lead titles, comic shops are closing down as a result.

People don't like Sjw's or the things they push and Gw adopting that will end up the same way.

I'm all for more female models where appropriate like sob, guard and eldar but if they start pushing regressive nonsense I'll boycott all their products, no end of other games to play.

Just want to chime in since many people are perpetuating this myth. Diversity has nothing to do with Marvel's declining sales, as evidenced by an actual analysis of sales data: http://www.cbr.com/no-diversity-didnt-kill-marvels-comic-sales/

This leads me to believe that GW wouldn't have a huge problem with this, either.

@DarkBlack.
GW are not interested in game balance.GWs core demographic are not interested in game balance either.

My point has been that if GW were interested in game balance, they would offer more value for money to gamers , and therefore grow sales .

GW just cant be bothered.

How did this thread get back to talking about diversity in models again?
I would rather the core rules covered the diversity in the models already found in the game,before demanding more female models.
(Which are much harder too get to 'look right' ,with heroic proportions of the GW style.)

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
FFG's new ground combat game will soak up the players seeking a more balanced game, I wouldn't be surprised to see 40k slip down to 4th place after its release.

How is Runewars doing btw? If FFG were big on balance X-Wing would be, is it?

Not to mention, there are already games soaking up players who want more balanced games (or just prefer a different game play experience). Infinity and King of War/Malifaux (for Sci-Fi and fantasy respectively) around here. Neither are more popular than the respective Warhammer though, which is why I don't think having a well balanced game is as important to success as I wish it were and many here suggest.

I think HJ is referring to Legion rather than Runewars, It'll most likely take a nip out of 40k but not do any real damage and it'll most likely be fairly balanced for a while till power creep spoils it

As much as I love Star Wars, i don't think Legion will have too much of an impact on 40k. I'm interested in it, but not enough to make me buy it over 40k.

GW has "come a long way, baby", but still a fair amount to go before they're "fixed".


And for the sake of everybody, can we stop talking about diversity in relation to the original topic. Please start another thread so this one doesn't get locked! (since nobody can be civil to one another)

Racerguy180 wrote:

And for the sake of everybody, can we stop talking about diversity in relation to the original topic. Please start another thread so this one doesn't get locked! (since nobody can be civil to one another)

Now now, everyone is being very civil, and i do think it's an area that is covered by the original question as regards changes or lack thereof in GW's actions and aims.
And I agree with Sidstyler, it shouldn't be forced, but don't think anyone would have any problems with more representation of pre-existing parts of the universe like SOB or cults.
And linking back to the question, as my A-Level teachers are quick to remind me, (end my suffering please) it seems GW have learned their lesson in that regard. They've said they're working on getting better representation, with no hinting at female marines or anything similarly forced. (At which point I'd probably give up the hobby, I don't want political messages with my plastic fanatic space monks wielding automatic rocket launchers.)

 Mymearan wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Diversity could be the hill Gw dies on, look at marvel comics their sales are worse now than after the 90's crash, this is a time with three movies a year and multiple TV shows but they can barely sell 40k copies of their lead titles, comic shops are closing down as a result.

People don't like Sjw's or the things they push and Gw adopting that will end up the same way.

I'm all for more female models where appropriate like sob, guard and eldar but if they start pushing regressive nonsense I'll boycott all their products, no end of other games to play.

Just want to chime in since many people are perpetuating this myth. Diversity has nothing to do with Marvel's declining sales, as evidenced by an actual analysis of sales data: http://www.cbr.com/no-diversity-didnt-kill-marvels-comic-sales/

This leads me to believe that GW wouldn't have a huge problem with this, [qoute/]

They had a meeting a few weeks back with their major distribution stores, during a store owner stood up and asked them when they were going to reverse the current state and go back to classic characters because the new stuff does not sell, he said he has kids coming in after watching the movies looking for comics about the avengers and captain america who leave empty handed because they arnt there anymore.

Do you have twitter? If so look up what the "milkshake crew" say about the fans or how they plan to beat up their critics at comicon.

Marvel comics hired based on ideology not skill or experience which is why you get messes like squirrel girl.

I'm a marvel fanboy but I haven't bought anything from them in years because of this nonsense, I'm not alone in this boycotts are our only option these days because you can't have a logical discussion with the alt left because you committed the unforgivable offense of being white, male straight or dark gods help you all three.

Its happened with comics, films and videogames all with disastrous results, it can happen with wargaming too unless you actively say no which you can't because they are banning people left right and centre who dare say anything on social media.

I wish I was some lone crank out in the woods but this is a real concern, going far left is death for companies look at twitter zero growth makes no money and yet they keep putting more and more fascist restriction driving people away all in the name of social justice.

Lanrak wrote:
@DarkBlack.
GW are not interested in game balance.GWs core demographic are not interested in game balance either.

My point has been that if GW were interested in game balance, they would offer more value for money to gamers , and therefore grow sales .

GW just cant be bothered.

How did this thread get back to talking about diversity in models again?
I would rather the core rules covered the diversity in the models already found in the game,before demanding more female models.
(Which are much harder too get to 'look right' ,with heroic proportions of the GW style.)

There are certainly people who only collect, but are there people who play 40K that are not gamers?

hobojebus wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Diversity could be the hill Gw dies on, look at marvel comics their sales are worse now than after the 90's crash, this is a time with three movies a year and multiple TV shows but they can barely sell 40k copies of their lead titles, comic shops are closing down as a result.

People don't like Sjw's or the things they push and Gw adopting that will end up the same way.

I'm all for more female models where appropriate like sob, guard and eldar but if they start pushing regressive nonsense I'll boycott all their products, no end of other games to play.

Just want to chime in since many people are perpetuating this myth. Diversity has nothing to do with Marvel's declining sales, as evidenced by an actual analysis of sales data: http://www.cbr.com/no-diversity-didnt-kill-marvels-comic-sales/

This leads me to believe that GW wouldn't have a huge problem with this,

They had a meeting a few weeks back with their major distribution stores, during a store owner stood up and asked them when they were going to reverse the current state and go back to classic characters because the new stuff does not sell, he said he has kids coming in after watching the movies looking for comics about the avengers and captain america who leave empty handed because they arnt there anymore.

Do you have twitter? If so look up what the "milkshake crew" say about the fans or how they plan to beat up their critics at comicon.

Marvel comics hired based on ideology not skill or experience which is why you get messes like squirrel girl.

I'm a marvel fanboy but I haven't bought anything from them in years because of this nonsense, I'm not alone in this boycotts are our only option these days because you can't have a logical discussion with the alt left because you committed the unforgivable offense of being white, male straight or dark gods help you all three.

Its happened with comics, films and videogames all with disastrous results, it can happen with wargaming too unless you actively say no which you can't because they are banning people left right and centre who dare say anything on social media.

I wish I was some lone crank out in the woods but this is a real concern, going far left is death for companies look at twitter zero growth makes no money and yet they keep putting more and more fascist restriction driving people away all in the name of social justice.

Twitter, breeding ground for Nazis the world over: definitely run by the 'far left.'

You need therapy.

 Mymearan wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Diversity could be the hill Gw dies on, look at marvel comics their sales are worse now than after the 90's crash, this is a time with three movies a year and multiple TV shows but they can barely sell 40k copies of their lead titles, comic shops are closing down as a result.

People don't like Sjw's or the things they push and Gw adopting that will end up the same way.

I'm all for more female models where appropriate like sob, guard and eldar but if they start pushing regressive nonsense I'll boycott all their products, no end of other games to play.

Just want to chime in since many people are perpetuating this myth. Diversity has nothing to do with Marvel's declining sales, as evidenced by an actual analysis of sales data: http://www.cbr.com/no-diversity-didnt-kill-marvels-comic-sales/

This leads me to believe that GW wouldn't have a huge problem with this, either.

Well that was a misleading title. The article itself admits that "diverse" comics sell worse on average and that the diversity gimmick hasn't been able to turn tide of shrinking sales, but I guess you get to be technically correct (which we all know is the best kind of correct )

It's like none'a y'all even saw what they did to poor Mockingbird on her 8 issue and very quickly cancelled comic.

Talk about character assassination.

Anyway...

Necromunda is coming up. It is my fav GW game of all time. It's the type of game that would make me have rose-tinted nostalgia goggles embedded in my eye sockets... but then I have to consider that this box, which will have 2 boxes of miniatures and cardboard tiles, is going to be AUD$250-280 when it comes out, and I just can't get behind that.

It's scary enough when they release fantastic new pieces of terrain that, individually, cost about as much as the bundle boxes from last real major 40K terrain release. Now there's a whole game where these types of buildings, that I love, will be a requirement.

The entry price is too damned high!

 ulgurstasta wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Diversity could be the hill Gw dies on, look at marvel comics their sales are worse now than after the 90's crash, this is a time with three movies a year and multiple TV shows but they can barely sell 40k copies of their lead titles, comic shops are closing down as a result.

People don't like Sjw's or the things they push and Gw adopting that will end up the same way.

I'm all for more female models where appropriate like sob, guard and eldar but if they start pushing regressive nonsense I'll boycott all their products, no end of other games to play.

Just want to chime in since many people are perpetuating this myth. Diversity has nothing to do with Marvel's declining sales, as evidenced by an actual analysis of sales data: http://www.cbr.com/no-diversity-didnt-kill-marvels-comic-sales/

This leads me to believe that GW wouldn't have a huge problem with this, either.

Well that was a misleading title. The article itself admits that "diverse" comics sell worse on average and that the diversity gimmick hasn't been able to turn tide of shrinking sales, but I guess you get to be technically correct (which we all know is the best kind of correct )

Please read the whole article and its points instead of being a snide ass. Of course diverse comics haven't been able to turn the tide, because Marvels sales aren't dependent on diverse comics existing or not. That's the entire point of the article.

On your other Point, comics with non-white male leads do indeed sell (slightly) worse on average, but two of them are also Marvel's absolute top sellers, while the other top-10 comics sell less while still having primarily white male leads. The point of the article isn't to prove that diverse comics are the best and sell the most, it's that they didn't "kill Marvel's sales" which is a popular myth.

Exactly, you are technically correct in that diversity didn't kill sales. What you and the article writer are trying to obfuscate though is that the diversity gimmick has failed to turn the tide of shrinking sales (and therefore has failed in it's primary purpose) and comics that have tried the diversity gimmick sell less on average then comics that dont.

 ulgurstasta wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mymearan wrote:

 ulgurstasta wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Diversity could be the hill Gw dies on, look at marvel comics their sales are worse now than after the 90's crash, this is a time with three movies a year and multiple TV shows but they can barely sell 40k copies of their lead titles, comic shops are closing down as a result.

People don't like Sjw's or the things they push and Gw adopting that will end up the same way.

I'm all for more female models where appropriate like sob, guard and eldar but if they start pushing regressive nonsense I'll boycott all their products, no end of other games to play.

Just want to chime in since many people are perpetuating this myth. Diversity has nothing to do with Marvel's declining sales, as evidenced by an actual analysis of sales data: http://www.cbr.com/no-diversity-didnt-kill-marvels-comic-sales/

This leads me to believe that GW wouldn't have a huge problem with this, either.

Well that was a misleading title. The article itself admits that "diverse" comics sell worse on average and that the diversity gimmick hasn't been able to turn tide of shrinking sales, but I guess you get to be technically correct (which we all know is the best kind of correct )

Please read the whole article and its points instead of being a snide ass. Of course diverse comics haven't been able to turn the tide, because Marvels sales aren't dependent on diverse comics existing or not. That's the entire point of the article.

On your other Point, comics with non-white male leads do indeed sell (slightly) worse on average, but two of them are also Marvel's absolute top sellers, while the other top-10 comics sell less while still having primarily white male leads. The point of the article isn't to prove that diverse comics are the best and sell the most, it's that they didn't "kill Marvel's sales" which is a popular myth.

Exactly, you are technically correct in that diversity didn't kill sales. What you and the article writer are trying to obfuscate though is that the diversity gimmick has failed to turn the tide of shrinking sales (and therefore has failed in it's primary purpose) and comics that have tried the diversity gimmick sell less on average then comics that dont.

see my previous post. Oh, and diversity is not a gimmick, unless, you know, diversity in actual real life is also a gimmick. An actual gimmick would be, for example, having a disproportionate amount of heroes of a certain race, gender and sexual orientation solely to cater to a certain crowd. Now let’s see... which race, gender and sexual orientation is incredibly overrepresented in Marvel comics in order to cater to a certain demographic? Hmmm, I wonder...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's like none'a y'all even saw what they did to poor Mockingbird on her 8 issue and very quickly cancelled comic.

Talk about character assassination.

Anyway...

Necromunda is coming up. It is my fav GW game of all time. It's the type of game that would make me have rose-tinted nostalgia goggles embedded in my eye sockets... but then I have to consider that this box, which will have 2 boxes of miniatures and cardboard tiles, is going to be AUD$250-280 when it comes out, and I just can't get behind that.

It's scary enough when they release fantastic new pieces of terrain that, individually, cost about as much as the bundle boxes from last real major 40K terrain release. Now there's a whole game where these types of buildings, that I love, will be a requirement.

The entry price is too damned high!

Hasn't every kind of GW price been too high in Australia since the dawn of time?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's like none'a y'all even saw what they did to poor Mockingbird on her 8 issue and very quickly cancelled comic.

Talk about character assassination.

Anyway...

Necromunda is coming up. It is my fav GW game of all time. It's the type of game that would make me have rose-tinted nostalgia goggles embedded in my eye sockets... but then I have to consider that this box, which will have 2 boxes of miniatures and cardboard tiles, is going to be AUD$250-280 when it comes out, and I just can't get behind that.

It's scary enough when they release fantastic new pieces of terrain that, individually, cost about as much as the bundle boxes from last real major 40K terrain release. Now there's a whole game where these types of buildings, that I love, will be a requirement.

The entry price is too damned high!

I really hope they release the rulebook separately so we've got wider options. Some will still have their old setups, so just need the new rules.

All about a variety of entry costs.

 Mymearan wrote:
Now let’s see... which race, gender and sexual orientation is incredibly overrepresented in Marvel comics in order to cater to a certain demographic? Hmmm, I wonder...

You mean a business catered to a demographic that bought their products? Ain't that business 101? And when attempting to cater to a different demographic didn't boost sales, they stopped.

That sounds like prudent business practices to me.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
All about a variety of entry costs.

You really think there should be a variety of entry costs? Explain how you think this would work. I'm curious.

I hadnt bought any comics since middle school. But now that they did some gender swaping, added people of color, and sexual orientation. Now i have thousands of books