Why are you not playing AoS?

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**Just Tony**

darkcloak wrote:
Since when did JRR Tolkien become "low" fantasy?

gaks got talking trees and undead armies! Low fantasy my shiny white patooshie.

By that metric, is Conan the Barbarian high fantasy?

**Overread**

High and low are only rough guides at best and some series manage to combine both, Game of Thrones starts out exceptionally low fantasy and yet builds up; Robin Hobb's Farseer world is quite similar, though it starts a little further up, but by the end is heading into full high fantasy.

Some can even be deceptive, Dragonriders of Pern can appear to be quite high fantasy and yet technically its a sci-fi story. Meanwhile Discworld is, in my view, one of the few going from a high fantasy to low fantasy age!

**auticus**

Put another way... one is set in a world very similar to ours, has relateable inhabitants, and has physics etc that are close to what we would understand.

The other comes straight from magic the gathering, or final fantasy, and the worlds are wholly alien, the styles wholly alien, and magic is as common as iron.

Call them whatever you wish.

**Overread**

Personally I think AoS is best described as HM Fantasy - Heavy Metal fantasy

**thekingofkings**

Overread wrote:
Personally I think AoS is best described as HM Fantasy - Heavy Metal fantasy

I think that is definitely more on point, heavy metal fantasy

**Charistoph**

Overread wrote:
Personally I think AoS is best described as HM Fantasy - Heavy Metal fantasy

Wouldn't that be Heavy Plastic Fantasy?

eh?

**Overread**

Charistoph wrote:
Overread wrote:
Personally I think AoS is best described as HM Fantasy - Heavy Metal fantasy

Wouldn't that be Heavy Plastic Fantasy? eh?

You can take the metal from the model but you can't take the metal from the mould its cast from. With fire and heat and metal is AoS forged unto the battlefields!

**Knight**

Overread wrote:
Personally I think AoS is best described as HM Fantasy - Heavy Metal fantasy

Easily recognizable attributes are high pitched vocals and fabulous hair of the leading singer.

**Davor**

Just because someone said "low fantasy" doesn't mean it in a derogatory way. So saying Lord of the Rings is low fantasy compared to Age of Sigmar high fantasy doesn't mean AoS is better than LotR.

The way I took it is that AoS is so much in your face comic book like while LotR is more subtle and real life like.

It's like Heavy Metal and Classical mucis. Both are great. Both are the same (music), yet different (how it's presented).

Both can be in your face and both can be subtle. One is more in your face the other is more subtle.

**AegisGrimm**

Personally I am finding it just as rewarding to play games with friends that use the setting and minis, but with different rules. I'm just not a fan of all the rules material and how it's presented. There are other indie rulesets out there that I find just as rewarding.

**auticus**

Heavy metal indeed. I need to make some Rob Halford slaanesh demons and a stage.

**vipoid**

I tried AoS back when it first came out, and it just seemed like a collection of terrible rules and horrible design. Off the top of my head:

- There were no point values, so my friend and I had to just shove a load of stuff on the table and hope our forces ended up remotely balanced.

- I was using Vampire Counts (or whatever pretentious name they're calling themselves these days), and trying to navigate that many models was an exercise in pulling teeth.

- The turn system meant that one of us could get two turns in a row. Because I always love flipping a coin each turn to see whether one player gets to win the game.

- The system wherein models measure to other models (rather than to each other's bases) is quite possible the worst piece of game design I have ever witnessed.

- Seriously, making charge and pile-in moves for 40 Ghouls and 80 Skeletons is the least fun I have ever had in something purporting to be a game.

Now, I appreciate that the rules may have changed since then, so have any of the above been addressed?

Also, I used to play Vampire Counts and actually converted a Ghoul King to have Wings (Flying Horror was one of my favourite vampire powers). However, I went on the GW site the other day and I couldn't even find the rules for a Ghoul King on foot. Do they even still exist? And, if so, is my Winged guy still valid?

**Mr Morden**

vipoid wrote:
I tried AoS back when it first came out, and it just seemed like a collection of terrible rules and horrible design. Off the top of my head:

- There were no point values, so my friend and I had to just shove a load of stuff on the table and hope our forces ended up remotely balanced.

- I was using Vampire Counts (or whatever pretentious name they're calling themselves these days), and trying to navigate that many models was an exercise in pulling teeth.

- The turn system meant that one of us could get two turns in a row. Because I always love flipping a coin each turn to see whether one player gets to win the game.

- The system wherein models measure to other models (rather than to each other's bases) is quite possible the worst piece of game design I have ever witnessed.

- Seriously, making charge and pile-in moves for 40 Ghouls and 80 Skeletons is the least fun I have ever had in something purporting to be a game.

Now, I appreciate that the rules may have changed since then, so have any of the above been addressed?

Also, I used to play Vampire Counts and actually converted a Ghoul King to have Wings (Flying Horror was one of my favourite vampire powers). However, I went on the GW site the other day and I couldn't even find the rules for a Ghoul King on foot. Do they even still exist? And, if so, is my Winged guy still valid?

There are rules for a King on foot but not I think a flying one :( and no real artefacts to make it work

http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Abhorrant_Ghoul_King

http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Flesh-Eater_Courts

**vipoid**

Mr Morden wrote:

There are rules for a King on foot but not I think a flying one :( and no real artefacts to make it work

Thanks for the links but that's disappointing, to say the least.

Well, already my favourite model is invalid. I guess we've already found another answer for the thread's title.

**Overread**

AoS has formal rules and points now, just like 40K.

The long term plan is that each faction will have a Battletome (Codex) within which are their faction traits, abilities, spell lores, warscrolls, battalions (formations) and points for matched play as well as the allies they can take (limited in points and count and also limited on faction).

Currently there is still a little bit of a mess. Soulblight and Flesheater Courts would be where vampires are located now (split across both) and they can take each others forces as allies. Flesheater Courts have their very own Battletome* so that would be the ideal starting point for them.
Other places for warscrolls and points (eg soulblight)

1) On the store page in the downloads section for each unit
2) On Lexicanum as linked above.
3) Their points are all in the free Warscroll builder here
https://www.warhammer-community.com/warscroll-builder/

The doubleturn is still part of the game, but is no longer an auto win/lose mechanic. Indeed I see rare complaints about it in general from those who actively play the game. It's still a point of contention for some, but its not utterly broken (or at least its not enough of an issue to generate vast pages of threads complaining about it in AoS groups)

Otherwise the rules have tightened up a lot and many enjoy the game. It's lost the rank and file aspect, but you've gained in that now you can play on more dense terrain tabletops. Plus they've introduced new things like the Endless Spells; spells that you pay for like models and which, when cast, appear on the table as an actual model. There's Malign Sorcery, whcih is a boxed set which has rules and models for all Endless Spells barring the Balewind Vortex. In addition most factions will get their own unique Endless Spells (in time).

Errata and FAQ
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_flesh-eater_courts_errata_en-1.pdf

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_flesh-eater_courts_designers_commentary_en.pdf

**vipoid**

So, to be clear, if I have a unit of 80 skeletons, I still have to move them and do pile-in moves with them as individual models? (i.e. no movement trays)

Also, you mentioned Allies, but how do these work in AoS? It will be rather annoying if I'm going to be penalised for the crime of playing what used to be a single army.

**Overread**

Yes each model moves on its own, but you can still use a movement tray if you want. You might use it early on and then move off the tray once you're getting into close combat or into tighter terrain features. But yes if you take a hoard army you're moving hoard models that's how it is.

As for allies its runs on a few levels
1) Faction traits and abilities. Each faction has its own traits and abilities. If you run a Faction Flesh Eater Courts you get those abilities for your army. These can be quite significant abilities and often very desirable. So there's an instant bonus to running mono-faction.

2) Within a faction you can also take allies from select other forces within the Grand Alliance that they are part of. This can include any army, but varies army to army. Eg Stormcast can ally with any army in Order, but Daughters of Khaine are limited to just the old Dark Elf based factions.
You are also limited to 1 in 4 units and on points, so at 2K points you can only take 400 in allied units.

Note even if you take allies you still get your faction traits and abilities, but they might not all work on your allied units (it relies on keywords - eg an ability might be for all Stormcast units, so any allies might not get any bonus).

3) You can run a Grand Alliance army with any alliance models -as they'd all have the same key word. But doing so means that you are limited to the Grand Alliance artifacts, traits and abilities (listed in the big rule book). This is often done for armies that are still without a battletome and might be quite shattered, but which old collections make viable.
You'd also miss out on spell lores as Wizards can only use spells defined in their Alliance Battletome - so allied wizards can't use a school of magic and can only use the magical abilities on their warscroll.

So in general allies are part of the game, but they are well curtailed to be a flavour not a must have.

**vipoid**

I have to be honest, everything I'm hearing is making me think I made the right decision by abandoning Age of Sigmar.

**Overread**

Honestly I'd say go read the Flesh Courts Battletome in your local store and try a demo game or two. Sometimes things sound worse in words than they are in reality.

The only major issue AoS has at present is that it is still in transition from the Kirby Era mess at launch to a more structured current era setup - which should be all the faster now that GW isn't having to pump out 40K codex every month

**Spiky Norman**

vipoid wrote:
I have to be honest, everything I'm hearing is making me think I made the right decision by abandoning Age of Sigmar.

I hope you did not expect to hear anything positive in a thread about why AoS sucks?

**vipoid**

Overread wrote:
Honestly I'd say go read the Flesh Courts Battletome in your local store and try a demo game or two. Sometimes things sound worse in words than they are in reality.

You say that some things are worse in words, but you're ignoring the fact that I already tried this game.

Moving 80 skeletons when they're not allowed to stay on a movement tray isn't a case of 'it sounds bad in words' it's a case of 'this is absolutely obnoxious to play'. I literally tried this very thing when AoS first came out and it was one of the things that made me despise it.

Furthermore, one of the things I brought up was that I can't actually use my Winged Ghoul King. How the hell will playing change that? Does playing enough games of AoS unlock the option to take Wings on him?

Finally, you're saying to play Flesh Eater Courts. Okay... what about the rest of my army? As far as I can see, Flesh Eater Courts don't include Necromancers, Vampires, Wraiths, Banshees, Skeletons, Grave Guard, Zombies, Corpse Carts etc. Do I now get to keep 2/3 of my army on the shelf because I didn't have the foresight to know GW would split it into 3+ different factions several years down the line?

**auticus**

- There were no point values, so my friend and I had to just shove a load of stuff on the table and hope our forces ended up remotely balanced.

Points aren't making 40k or AOS balanced. They are just a structure you use to build armies within. The main goal of listbuilding is breaking balance anyway.

The doubleturn is still part of the game, but is no longer an auto win/lose mechanic. Indeed I see rare complaints about it in general from those who actively play the game.

The double-turn is as potent as it always was. There are rare complaints these days simply because its been around for so long that people have accepted it as part of the game now and those that really hate it don't play the game so you don't hear their complaints. In the games I play in, the double-turn is still responsible for most of the conclusions of our games, particularly combined with spamming mortal wounds. If you can bring 40+ mortal wounds to the table and get them in position to go off, it is a rare army that can survive two of that to the face in a row. Game wise the biggest issues that I encounter are the balance being very poor where guys will build a tournament list and then run roughshod over guys trying to use their legacy army that doesn't have an updated book yet. Even the armies that have books can also be middle of the road compared to a few of the armies.

I'd like to point out here though that that is not new with Age of Sigmar. That is how WHFB and 40k have operated since the beginning of time.

Now as to movement trays, nothing stops you from putting your units in movement trays and using them that way. Its just that it will come to apoint where they will need to abandon the movement tray once combat gets going and whether or not that is a plus or negative will depend on you. I lean more towards your opinion that it can be a little obnoxious, and really prefer Age of Sigmar with low model count simply because it takes a LONG time to shuffle forward a lot of models one by one. I truly miss ranked up armies simply because moving a few elements in movement trays is a lot more convenient. Not a death knell to the game but it is a tiny bit annoying.

Your ghoul king can still be used. Its just that... the split up of the army and the way the rules are are not clear and can be very confusing. It is a regular thing that I have to explain on the weekly in our campaign.

You'd play a Legion of Nagash army and ally in your ghoul king. However if he doesn't have the fly option then indeed he no longer flies. Unless you are playing in a group that lets you houserule, but I understand how toxic people and groups can get with that word being used so that will depend on your own personal situation.

**Overread**

vipoid wrote:
Overread wrote:
Honestly I'd say go read the Flesh Courts Battletome in your local store and try a demo game or two. Sometimes things sound worse in words than they are in reality.

You say that some things are worse in words, but you're ignoring the fact that I already tried this game.

Moving 80 skeletons when they're not allowed to stay on a movement tray isn't a case of 'it sounds bad in words' it's a case of 'this is absolutely obnoxious to play'. I literally tried this very thing when AoS first came out and it was one of the things that made me despise it.

Furthermore, one of the things I brought up was that I can't actually use my Winged Ghoul King. How the hell will playing change that? Does playing enough games of AoS unlock the option to take Wings on him?

Finally, you're saying to play Flesh Eater Courts. Okay... what about the rest of my army? As far as I can see, Flesh Eater Courts don't include Necromancers, Vampires, Wraiths, Banshees, Skeletons, Grave Guard, Zombies, Corpse Carts etc. Do I now get to keep 2/3 of my army on the shelf because I didn't have the foresight to know GW would split it into 3+ different factions several years down the line?

Like I said the game at launch and the game now are two totally separate entities.They are worlds apart from each other. Which is why I suggested going to play. I agree that the game at launch was a disaster and a mess, but its changed a lot since then.

The Vampires were split yes, I said Flesheater Courts had a Battletome (ergo they are more up to date) but that Soulblight was another key part with the vampires within it and that chances are you'd probably take one half and then ally the other in or go for a grand alliance death army. I'm not best versed in Death and how it works balance/game wise so I can't really say anything specific on that beyond the general.

Spiky Norman - well that depends on if people read the title and opening post or just the title and make assumptions

**Carnith**

For an undead army you can play them as either Flesh Eater Courts, Legions of Nagash, or Death. There are also realm artifacts that allow your ghoul king to fly, AND it make him faster. Hell sometimes a cool conversion is all you really need. I'm making a female lord of Chaos by proxying a new harpy model from Daughters of Khaine. The Chaos Lord doesn't have wings, but mine will. Will she actually fly? Probably not, but I might put an artefact on her to allow her to fly form time to time, other times she will be slowly moving up those 5" she gets.

**Overread**

Carnith wrote:
For an undead army you can play them as either Flesh Eater Courts, Legions of Nagash, or Death. There are also realm artifacts that allow your ghoul king to fly, AND it make him faster. Hell sometimes a cool conversion is all you really need. I'm making a female lord of Chaos by proxying a new harpy model from Daughters of Khaine. The Chaos Lord doesn't have wings, but mine will. Will she actually fly? Probably not, but I might put an artefact on her to allow her to fly form time to time, other times she will be slowly moving up those 5" she gets.

I want to make a winged Shadowblade Assassin since I figure half the time I use the I'll be putting them in a group of Khinerai flying onto the battlefield - so give her wings even though stat wise the assassin has no wings at all. Purely for flavour of the army.

**vipoid**

Overread wrote:

Like I said the game at launch and the game now are two totally separate entities.They are worlds apart from each other. Which is why I suggested going to play. I agree that the game at launch was a disaster and a mess, but its changed a lot since then.

The Vampires were split yes, I said Flesheater Courts had a Battletome (ergo they are more up to date) but that Soulblight was another key part with the vampires within it and that chances are you'd probably take one half and then ally the other in or go for a grand alliance death army. I'm not best versed in Death and how it works balance/game wise so I can't really say anything specific on that beyond the general.

I'm hearing that the game has improved, but it still seems like my army is boned before I even start.

Alright, I've got one more question. Let's say I pick a Vampire Lord as my general (since my Winged Ghoul King model is now worthless), is there any way I can actually protect him? Aside from just having him be so far back as to be worthless. I'll admit that I've only had a quick look at the rules, but I can't see anything that would stop the enemy targetting him even if he's behind a legion of skeletons, so long as they can see a square nanometer of his shoulder. And I could be wrong, but 5 wounds and a 4+ save (and no ward save or FNP) seems insanely squishy for a Vampire Lord who can no longer hide in units.

Am I missing something?

**darkcloak**

Just Tony wrote:
darkcloak wrote:
Since when did JRR Tolkien become "low" fantasy?

gaks got talking trees and undead armies! Low fantasy my shiny white patooshie.

By that metric, is Conan the Barbarian high fantasy?

Um, that's totally out to lunch, mate. Haha, Lunchmate. That idea is so silly you could dip it in Cheez.

If we are talking about traditional 'high' and 'low' fantasy where HF is the realm of magic, mythical creatures and suchlike and LF is more mundane, realistic and whatnot, then by that metric Conan would actually be low fantasy.

Conan, as originally written by Robert E. Howard is very much the story of an uncompromising man facing the harsh realities of his world. There is magic and myth involved but it is portrayed as rare. It's involvement in the story serves as a catalyst for change which the main character must react to. Conan does not use a magic sword or ride a dragon. Low Fantasy.

Peregrin Took and Meriadoc Brandybuck ride to the Ent Moot on the shoulder of a giant sentient tree. An Ent. Tolkien created an entire language for use by a race of Elves. Also, The Silmarillion is kind of a thing. High Fantasy.

I think TV may have spoiled a few things for people over the years. Seriously, go read all of Tolkien's stuff if you haven't already. As well as original REH penned Conan. Hour of the Dragon in particular stands out as the first and only novel actually written by Robert himself.

Now back to the topic at hand. No, I don't Rend -2 is better than Damage 3 on a lesser Rend.

**vipoid**

Carnith wrote:
For an undead army you can play them as either Flesh Eater Courts, Legions of Nagash, or Death.

How does this work, then?

Does one of those let me use all the stuff from the old Vampire Counts army without incurring penalties for it?

Carnith wrote:
There are also realm artifacts that allow your ghoul king to fly, AND it make him faster.

What are realm artefacts then?

**Elmir**

I'm not entirely sure what your undead collection consists of, but if it doesn't include any of the new ghosts, you have 2 main choices: Legions of Nagash or Flesh-eater courts. If you chose a legions of Nagash list, you essentially use all of the old VC army, except for the strigoi bloodline... If you select Flesh-eater courts, you essentially only select strigoi stuff, varghulfs, ghouls etc. You can still add small amounts in cross factions, but they are considered allies. Just a sidenote: you never incure penalties in AoS for mixing things, you do get bonuses (a lot sometimes) for sticking with themed armies.

If you have an old "generic" VC army, you can pretty much make a whole host of decent Legions of Nagash lists these days. Your options would be:

- Grand host of Nagash: You can take whatever you want, but your army will typically include lots of skeletons, grave guard, maybe some of the new morghasts and possibly even Nagash. This faction tends to buff your "bone units" to insane heights and excels at attrition warfare. This can include any mortarch and you have to select this if you take Nagash himself.
- Legion of Sacrament: you can include anything you want, but you get bonuses to spell casting, so logically, you'll want to include lots of wizards (vampires or necromancers) to make the most out of your bonuses. This is Arkan the black's legion.
- Legion of Night: you can take whatever you want, but this is an army that relies on ambush tactics, so you'll want to use fast flying units that can drop in via the flanks and use their speed well. This would be Manfred's legion.
- Legion of Blood: you can take whatever you want, but this army gets a boost to vampire units, so you'll want to include more of those to make the most of your bonuses. This is Neferatta's legion.

Should you have an old VC army that was knee deep in strigoi bloodline (so lots of ghouls, crypt horrors, ghoul kings on foot/terror gheist etc), you are probably better off with a Flesh-eater court army.

Every faction that I mentioned gets their own command traits (same as in 40k essentially, if you are familiar with that) and gets to select 1 (or more, if you invest points in battalions) artifact from their army. You can however make one of the mortal realms your home realm. If you do so, you get to select the artifact from a list of artifact that are "common" for your realm. If you REALLY want your ghoul king on foot to fly, you can by making the realm of metal the home world of you death army, and then giving the ghoul king the "hydroxskin cloak", allowing him to fly (and actually potentially cause D3 mortal wounds if he flies over a unit)

**Overread**

Note that realm stuff is broken into two categories:

1) Army Realm - where your army comes from one of the specific realms and thus can use artifacts from that realm. This has no effect on the Battle realm.

2) Battle Realm - this is where the game is played and adds to the terrain rules for the game. This gives you and your opponent access to a new spell, new realm commands (both in addition to your armies normal options) and also can have realmscape effects on the battlefield. This might influence armies or terrain in the game.
If you use the Realm settings in the Malign Sorcery book you also get access to an entire new spell lore specific to each realm (both players get the same)
In addition some endless spells have a boosted form in certain realms.

Note that both realms for your army and realms as a battle feature are optional extras, so agree with your opponent before use.