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Better saves are not going to make basic Tacs/Assault/Chaos Marines etc worth taking.

I don't really know why people are afraid of "horde" marines.

Lets say Tactical Marines and Intercessors went down 2 points. How many were you taking before? How many are you now going to flood the board with? If a quarter of your list was tacticals/a third of your list was intercessors (....) you are now free to take another 5 man squad. Maybe across the whole army we are talking 2 such squads.

Are you a horde now?

You know, I've been thinking; maybe its necron weapons that are overpriced.
Just look at the base cost of an immortal - 8 points.
Now look at the base cost of a tesla carbine or a gauss blaster - 9 points.

The gun is quite literally worth more than the model its on. And they aren't even worth that much.

A gauss blaster has a lower rate of fire and range than a heavy bolter and its 1 point more. It has better AP, but is that really worth the extra point, at that range and ROF?
Similarly, we are being charged a premium for tesla, which can be easily lost and isn't reliable enough to be that expensive.
Both options should probably be around 6-7 points.

 l1ttlej wrote:
On the marine topic I saw a fairly eloquent fix, with some adjustment that doesnt need a million point reductions. (Marines becoming a horde army is a mistake imo)

All MEQ get a rule something like armoured ceramaite (or whatever name you want): reduce ap (ie ap value +1) on incoming attacks from ranged weapons by 1.

TEQ: either 2d6 for saves or +2 to the AP. I prefer the 2d6 over the +2. Feels like it starts messing with fluff of plasma chewing through armour.

MEQ one is fairly common equilavent.

TEQ do you REALLY want to start rolling 10 saves individually? Also 5+ on 2d6 with lascannon...Don't you think that's "bit" too strong? With this you WILL be rolling tons of saves individually as even strongest weapons will struggle to kill anything needing 6 lascannon wounds to get 1 failed save. I hope you would at least remove the 5++ or do you really intend 2+(on 1d6) be worst termies would save with?

I was thinking a similar thing about armor saves the other day, though not just about Marines. With the way AP works this edition you practically could improve every armor save by 1 and it would probably be ok, with some exceptions, at least for more elite units. Not that I'd advocate a huge change like that all at once, but its probably about time for 2+ to no longer be considered the 'best'.

As to overall balance, I left the game during 6th and 7th edition because the game was so bad and just kept track of things on the outside. I think 8th is vastly improved, hence why I'm playing again. I agree that a couple factions need substantial work, but 2 out of roughly 25 (depending on how you count) isn't that bad. I've never seen tournament results with so many varied lists and factions. I'm not an authority on the topic and can only speak for myself, but 8th Ed has me playing again.

Tyel wrote:
Better saves are not going to make basic Tacs/Assault/Chaos Marines etc worth taking.

I don't really know why people are afraid of "horde" marines.

Lets say Tactical Marines and Intercessors went down 2 points. How many were you taking before? How many are you now going to flood the board with? If a quarter of your list was tacticals/a third of your list was intercessors (....) you are now free to take another 5 man squad. Maybe across the whole army we are talking 2 such squads.

Are you a horde now?

my current SM list is almost entirely tac marines. totals 81 power armor marines at 1750 if going higher i usually just add more power armor to fill. spread them out but daisy chain for rerolling 1s to hit and 1s to wound as much as possible. it is hard to deal with that much power armor.

If space marines went down to base 10 points I would be adding ~33% more tac marines

ravenguard chapter 1734 points

battalion 1

captain with a chainsword and storm bolter 76
LT w/ stormbolter and chainsword 62

5x 5 man tac squad with plasma gun. sarg has a storm bolter in every squad 400

battalion 2

captain with a chainsword and storm bolter 76
LT w/ stormbolter and chainsword 62

5x 5 man tac squad with missile launcher. sarg has a storm bolter in every squad 460

battalion 3

captain with a chainsword and storm bolter 76
LT w/ stormbolter and chainsword 62

5x 5 man tac squad with missile launcher. sarg has a storm bolter in every squad 460

Yeah, marines are probably too cheap already if we go by fluff.
81 marines on the table is like 10% of a chapter. That's a huge disconnect.

Marines should be buffed, not made cheaper. Also there should be chapter serfs or something to fulfil the role of cheap cannon fodder.
Board control is really important in 8th, and if you can field screens of cheap fodder you'll have an advantage over someone who can't.
Primaris are actually closer to what marines should be like on the table, really.

" it is hard to deal with that much power armor. "

Is it, though? Sisters can already do this.

Martel732 wrote:
" it is hard to deal with that much power armor. "

Is it, though? Sisters can already do this.

it does well vs guard based soup, and most meta lists. its a case of not being super strong against anything, but it is far enough from what people expect to see that they are not prepared for it. It really is priceless to see the face of an opponent as you keep pulling more and more power armor out of the case, usually they double check the lsit to verify that many marines are possible at the points level. They also do well at board control and grabbign objectives as the opponent really has a hard time prioritizing and has to wipe squads completely to remove the special or heavy weapon. with ATSKNF 5 man squads just almost never run.

I am on team make marines better or cheaper, i agree they cost to much, as is I think a marine is basically a 10-11 point model closer to 11. but to make them 13 i think just power armor ignoring 1 ap and terminator armor ignoring 2 ap ie ap-3 weapon means power armor is treating it as ap-2 and terminators treat it as ap-1 would be a better solution. it would also make them more fluffy because I agree having 1/10th of a chapter on the table would be even more ridiculous (though i would totally do it)

I fought that list with free rhinos and when grav mattered. I'm not worried about it in 8th.

Funny you should mention - I've been wanting to run a CSM spam list for fun. Full rerolls to hit from Abaddon. Full rerolls to wound in CC. VotLW for big stuff. Spring for 5+ DTTFE on the Exalted and a blob of 20 CSM with just chainswords will put 9 wounds on a Castellan (if they make it there).

I imagine they would have a hard time killing enough marines AND the objective grabbers. There just aren't enough guns in most lists.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoiler:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Better saves are not going to make basic Tacs/Assault/Chaos Marines etc worth taking.

I don't really know why people are afraid of "horde" marines.

Lets say Tactical Marines and Intercessors went down 2 points. How many were you taking before? How many are you now going to flood the board with? If a quarter of your list was tacticals/a third of your list was intercessors (....) you are now free to take another 5 man squad. Maybe across the whole army we are talking 2 such squads.

Are you a horde now?

my current SM list is almost entirely tac marines. totals 81 power armor marines at 1750 if going higher i usually just add more power armor to fill. spread them out but daisy chain for rerolling 1s to hit and 1s to wound as much as possible. it is hard to deal with that much power armor.

If space marines went down to base 10 points I would be adding ~33% more tac marines

ravenguard chapter 1734 points

battalion 1

captain with a chainsword and storm bolter 76
LT w/ stormbolter and chainsword 62

5x 5 man tac squad with plasma gun. sarg has a storm bolter in every squad 400

battalion 2

captain with a chainsword and storm bolter 76
LT w/ stormbolter and chainsword 62

5x 5 man tac squad with missile launcher. sarg has a storm bolter in every squad 460

battalion 3

captain with a chainsword and storm bolter 76
LT w/ stormbolter and chainsword 62

5x 5 man tac squad with missile launcher. sarg has a storm bolter in every squad 460

Funny you should mention - I've been wanting to run a CSM spam list for fun. Full rerolls to hit from Abaddon. Full rerolls to wound in CC. VotLW for big stuff. Spring for 5+ DTTFE on the Exalted and a blob of 20 CSM with just chainswords will put 9 wounds on a Castellan (if they make it there).

I imagine they would have a hard time killing enough marines AND the objective grabbers. There just aren't enough guns in most lists.

Spoiler:

Interesting, but why possesd over chosen?
I personally made good results with 5 chosen each with combi Bolter.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Interesting, but why possesd over chosen?
I personally made good results with 5 chosen each with combi Bolter.

Mostly because of the models I have. Partly because of M7 and the 5++ and I just feel like punching stuff.

I could see a bolter hell with Chosen combis and CSM - that could be fun.

 p5freak wrote:

valdier wrote:

Because most of you have never played necrons and really don't have an idea of what you are talking about in regards to them?

I see

valdier wrote:

They are utterly bad. Terrible bad. All but 3-4 units in the codex unplayable bad.

Yes, they are bad, but far from utterly bad. In tournaments necrons arent always in last place.

They're pretty near though. I won't pretend valdier's fixes are anything but terrible, but I understand the frustration.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Better saves are not going to make basic Tacs/Assault/Chaos Marines etc worth taking.

I don't really know why people are afraid of "horde" marines.

Lets say Tactical Marines and Intercessors went down 2 points. How many were you taking before? How many are you now going to flood the board with? If a quarter of your list was tacticals/a third of your list was intercessors (....) you are now free to take another 5 man squad. Maybe across the whole army we are talking 2 such squads.

Are you a horde now?

It's because they're portrayed as an elite army and function as anything but already. It's a matter of principle at that point that GW needs to make them feel elite, not just be priced as elite.

To hell with principle. Elites get hosed in 8th. Cheaper is better. Cheaper gives more shots, more wounds, more punches.

 l1ttlej wrote:
On the marine topic I saw a fairly eloquent fix, with some adjustment that doesnt need a million point reductions. (Marines becoming a horde army is a mistake imo)

All MEQ get a rule something like armoured ceramaite (or whatever name you want): reduce ap (ie ap value +1) on incoming attacks from ranged weapons by 1.

TEQ: either 2d6 for saves or +2 to the AP. I prefer the 2d6 over the +2. Feels like it starts messing with fluff of plasma chewing through armour.

Anybody proposing the 2D6 armor save is on drugs. Lemme just shoot your squad with 3 Frag Cannons and 6 Storm Bolters and laugh as you run down the clock.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
To hell with principle. Elites get hosed in 8th. Cheaper is better. Cheaper gives more shots, more wounds, more punches.

It really doesn't as long as the basic profile does nothing. The only reason Sisters work is because they get more Special Weapon saturation and getting a couple extra Bolters doesn't help that.

Given enough of anything, it will get work done.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 l1ttlej wrote:
On the marine topic I saw a fairly eloquent fix, with some adjustment that doesnt need a million point reductions. (Marines becoming a horde army is a mistake imo)

All MEQ get a rule something like armoured ceramaite (or whatever name you want): reduce ap (ie ap value +1) on incoming attacks from ranged weapons by 1.

TEQ: either 2d6 for saves or +2 to the AP. I prefer the 2d6 over the +2. Feels like it starts messing with fluff of plasma chewing through armour.

Anybody proposing the 2D6 armor save is on drugs. Lemme just shoot your squad with 3 Frag Cannons and 6 Storm Bolters and laugh as you run down the clock.

It doesn't work in this format of game anyway.
How are you going to speed roll 2D6 armor saves? The reason why it existed back then is because it was more skirmish based. You didn't have huge squads like you do now.

ROYGBIV dice. We did it all the time for SFB hit locations.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, marines are probably too cheap already if we go by fluff.
81 marines on the table is like 10% of a chapter. That's a huge disconnect.

Marines should be buffed, not made cheaper. Also there should be chapter serfs or something to fulfil the role of cheap cannon fodder.
Board control is really important in 8th, and if you can field screens of cheap fodder you'll have an advantage over someone who can't.
Primaris are actually closer to what marines should be like on the table, really.

If anything units should be both cheaper and be more effective. A guardian has 1/6 of a chance of gaining a -3 ap. Space Marines have no such luxury and no massive buffs they can use or benefit from.

I agree we should have cheap cannon fodder for space marines, IE Scouts or something similar to as you suggest chapter serfs. But currently space marines have way too many entries in the codex, there needs to be a crunch of what space marines can take, and removal or retiring of certain units.

Ice_can wrote:
For someone who writes and edits book you might want to look at a codex before you start claiming landraiders in imaginary configurations exist.

Sorry to interject, but what's wrong with the Landraider configuration he used?

Edit: Nevermind, I see it now. The basic Landraider is 2 twin Lascannons and a twin Heavy Bolter, the twin Assault Cannon only comes on the Redeemer and Crusader variants.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Anybody proposing the 2D6 armor save is on drugs. Lemme just shoot your squad with 3 Frag Cannons and 6 Storm Bolters and laugh as you run down the clock.

Just roll once dice for each save. If it's a 1 reroll it and 1s fail after that (or whatever the target is).

Ultimately I think GW needs to revisit total wounds of units and stop thinking that every single infantry unit should have just 1 wound.

I would very much like them to put more wounds on elite units. Tac Marines become 2 wound, terminators and bikes 3 wounds, and so on.

This would give them survivability while still retaining the anti-marine effectiveness(weapons that do 2 damage) of many weapons.

The problem we currently have is that the spectrum of survivability is very two dimensional. It has the toughness that is very simplified currently, and then you have saves that are being mitigated with increasingly deadly weapons. By giving certain elite units more wounds you would almost immediately feel their eliteness increase as they start to shrug off more wounds.
(I ignore FnP because it's technically just another save that increases rolls instead of addressing the problem properly)

Also, adding more wounds to a single model allows for greater granularity than just lowering price of the model only. A double wound infantry model does not double shooting, but it does double survivability against many weapons.

There is also another thing that GW might need to do sooner or later and that is what X-Wing 2.0 did: double the points values. It allowed FFG to increase the granularity of cost in a unit and therefore allow better precision in pointing a unit. This is something that GW is lacking as you can see how much a single point matters when it comes to guardsmen. If guardsmen were double the price(as everything else) then 1 point increase would feel a bit more modest.

The Newman wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
For someone who writes and edits book you might want to look at a codex before you start claiming landraiders in imaginary configurations exist.

Sorry to interject, but what's wrong with the Landraider configuration he used?

Edit: Nevermind, I see it now. The basic Landraider is 2 twin Lascannons and a twin Heavy Bolter, the twin Assault Cannon only comes on the Redeemer and Crusader variants.

Yep, and besides that he's comparing apples to oranges.
The monolith was never an offensive vehicle. Its primary purpose is to land behind enemy lines, deploy units, teleport units to its gate to keep up the pressure and give supporting fire. Even in 3rd-4th ed its offensive capabilities weren't amazing compared to other units. What was amazing was that it was a hard to kill block that's in your face and shoving necrons into your backline, and back then it ignored Deep Strike mishaps. If it landed on an enemy unit, that enemy unit is forced to move out of the way. Other deep strikers would roll on the Mishap chart and risk destruction if that happened.

That stratagem should have been an innate ability, not something you need a resource for. But I don't think its going away.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Ultimately I think GW needs to revisit total wounds of units and stop thinking that every single infantry unit should have just 1 wound.

I would very much like them to put more wounds on elite units. Tac Marines become 2 wound, terminators and bikes 3 wounds, and so on.

This would give them survivability while still retaining the anti-marine effectiveness(weapons that do 2 damage) of many weapons.

The problem we currently have is that the spectrum of survivability is very two dimensional. It has the toughness that is very simplified currently, and then you have saves that are being mitigated with increasingly deadly weapons. By giving certain elite units more wounds you would almost immediately feel their eliteness increase as they start to shrug off more wounds.
(I ignore FnP because it's technically just another save that increases rolls instead of addressing the problem properly)

Also, adding more wounds to a single model allows for greater granularity than just lowering price of the model only. A double wound infantry model does not double shooting, but it does double survivability against many weapons.

There is also another thing that GW might need to do sooner or later and that is what X-Wing 2.0 did: double the points values. It allowed FFG to increase the granularity of cost in a unit and therefore allow better precision in pointing a unit. This is something that GW is lacking as you can see how much a single point matters when it comes to guardsmen. If guardsmen were double the price(as everything else) then 1 point increase would feel a bit more modest.

The problem still remains space marine shooting phases are still very subpar. Their bolt weapons should retain their rules AP5 which should be AP -1. Or they become more effective against any models with a 5+ or 6+ save.

I still think increasing wounds isn't addressing the problem space marines have which is just how poorly they perform against something like deathguard, they lack synergies within their own lists and have to rely upon other imperial lists to even be considered competitive or you pluck down Bobby G or a Levithian dread. The point is that space marines yes have great auras but they aren't factionwide or board wide (which they should be if there is a chapter master on the field). Space Marines in 5th edition had their captain bound abilities/chapter abilities that make a mockery of the currently subpar chapter tactics. (heck even 4th edition had better special rules for space marines feel no pain or +2 saves on all commanders and units having access to varied amounts of abilities). IE Counter-Attack, True Grit, and Feel No Pain with very few negatives you could basically have space marine tacticals hunting down tanks relatively easily.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Anybody proposing the 2D6 armor save is on drugs. Lemme just shoot your squad with 3 Frag Cannons and 6 Storm Bolters and laugh as you run down the clock.

Just roll once dice for each save. If it's a 1 reroll it and 1s fail after that (or whatever the target is).

You seem to have a disconnect from how much time that will take. That is 16 shots without rerolls from those Storm Bolters at Rapid Fire range, and heaven forbid I used the flamer profile for the Frag Cannon (that's 7 shots on average!)

I'd like to see marines ignoring a point of ap and getting a point of ap on bolt weapons.

Haven't thought about how it scales but I don't really care either

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'd like to see marines ignoring a point of ap and getting a point of ap on bolt weapons.

Haven't thought about how it scales but I don't really care either

But they can though. They are called Bolt Rifles.
Maybe an addition -1 AP on a 6 to hit, to represent the explosive round damaging armor or good marksmanship or something.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Anybody proposing the 2D6 armor save is on drugs. Lemme just shoot your squad with 3 Frag Cannons and 6 Storm Bolters and laugh as you run down the clock.

Just roll once dice for each save. If it's a 1 reroll it and 1s fail after that (or whatever the target is).

You seem to have a disconnect from how much time that will take. That is 16 shots without rerolls from those Storm Bolters at Rapid Fire range, and heaven forbid I used the flamer profile for the Frag Cannon (that's 7 shots on average!)

Maybe we're not talking about the same thing?

Your storm bolters get 5 wounds and the flamer profile nets 3.5. I roll 8 or 9 dice. For the 1 or 2 that roll a 1 I roll a second dice to see if I've failed.

It's not terribly different than if someone were to get a reroll to their saves like AoS. The majority of dice rolling is on your end.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Anybody proposing the 2D6 armor save is on drugs. Lemme just shoot your squad with 3 Frag Cannons and 6 Storm Bolters and laugh as you run down the clock.

Just roll once dice for each save. If it's a 1 reroll it and 1s fail after that (or whatever the target is).

You seem to have a disconnect from how much time that will take. That is 16 shots without rerolls from those Storm Bolters at Rapid Fire range, and heaven forbid I used the flamer profile for the Frag Cannon (that's 7 shots on average!)

Maybe we're not talking about the same thing?

Your storm bolters get 5 wounds and the flamer profile nets 3.5. I roll 8 or 9 dice. For the 1 or 2 that roll a 1 I roll a second dice to see if I've failed.

It's not terribly different than if someone were to get a reroll to their saves like AoS. The majority of dice rolling is on your end.

Nah, the Deathwatch ones will wound on a 2+ because I want to make you waste time rolling all those saves. You also forgot I use 3 Frag Cannons in a squad. 21 hits is 14 wounds from that at AP-1.

So yeah, have fun rolling all that.

valdier wrote:

Land Raider with twin las, twin assault and multi does 9.18 wounds to a leman russ, and 4.68 to marines.

The Phobos Land Raider (the standard version you're referring to) doesn't have a twin assault cannon. It has a twin heavy bolter. It's the variants that lack lascannons (the Crusader and the Redeemer) that have twin assault cannons.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, marines are probably too cheap already if we go by fluff.
81 marines on the table is like 10% of a chapter. That's a huge disconnect.

Marines should be buffed, not made cheaper. Also there should be chapter serfs or something to fulfil the role of cheap cannon fodder.
Board control is really important in 8th, and if you can field screens of cheap fodder you'll have an advantage over someone who can't.
Primaris are actually closer to what marines should be like on the table, really.

It occurs to me that what some of the sub-par Marine units could really use are some decent strats tied to them. Tac Marines are mostly a sub-par shooting unit. Give them a strat that lets them shoot twice. They get a little better. Rhinos - give them a strat where a unit can disembark after the Rhino moves. Drop Pods - what about a strat where the disembarking unit can move instead of charging after it arrives? I've never been able to have Marines charge out of a pod, but I have been able to use them to deliver units within flamer/optimal melta range, so it eats at me that they can't now.