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It's funny how the Chapter Master stratagem went from useless at 3 CP to a must take at 2 CP. Maybe they should just increase the CP cost back up to 3 or even 4 and call it a day.

Well, they should probably put in a restriction preventing you from using that stratagem if you already have a Chapter Master in your list (or at least the list of the same subfaction).

Didn't it also change from re-roll failed hit rolls to re-roll any hit rolls? Or am I remembering wrong?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
No what changed was Chapter Master came into the equation, and the Marine players realized they can do what Guilliman does for 200 pts less by paying 2CP.

Gulliman also received a hefty nerf in his codex variant, for example he lost full re-rolls to wound.

Nobody should be able to simply reroll all hits just by putting an HQ in their list. Or better, nobody should be able to reroll all hits period. When the god of dice decides you're gak-ed you should be gak-ed, not just take second chances. The game needs luck or just plain old botching to be part of the game and marine weapons and models are priced on the assumption that they fail to hit 1/3 of the time.

When you put Chapter Masters and exploding 6's suddenly you get models that make more hits than they have attacks c o n s i s t e n t l y and that's where the stupidity happens. Then it compounds by making Chapter master an aura and getting the relic to make it 9" just because. Suddenly the whole army rerolls all hits which makes someone wonder why did GW even bother to give the models a ballistic skill stat in the first place.

Chapter master should not be a thing. If it has to be, at least make it a CP stratagem targeting one unit for a turn. Start of shooting or fight phase, pay 1 CP, choose a unit within 6" of your captain. That unit may reroll hit rolls for that phase. Still strong but not broken. That hard to imagine huh?

Only one of the sub factions has exploding 6s and it's only for Bolt Weapons.

 Jidmah wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I mean, sure the houserules people are proposing are all about buffing yoru army. We're talking about giving stuff that will most probably happen in the future right now.
Making ALL autohitting weapons 12" minimum for example.

That's just an educated guess though, and one that is very likely to be wrong.

What range will plaguespurt gauntles have (currently 6")? Heavy D-scythes?
So it's not as simple as just making all of them 12" or giving all of them +4" range.

Agreed that its an educated guess and that the only ones we know for sure are getting updated are the ones with the exact same name than the loyalists ones.

Or making Chaos Space marines dreadclaws able to arrive on the board turn 1 just like the loyalist ones, or give legion traits to our vehicles too.

Ever actually tried arguing the last one?
"Well, you've got a primarch"
"Your actual legion trait is disgustingly resilient"
"Those PBC would be too strong if they could shoot and move"
"You've got other things that loyalists don't have"
"There probably is a good reason for that"
*tzeench daemon player just laughing hysterically*

Havnt had any problem so far when playing these rules, i just ask my opponents and most of the time theyre surprised that theyre not already in place.
Altough i've seen many internet fights about legion traits, which is pretty dumb considering what loyalists get compared to chaos. My rhino giving -1 leadership would NOT break the game, and don't tell me that a rhino covered in flayed skin and skulls isn't spooky.

Heck, even a rhino with -1 to hit isnt' OP, especially not in 9th.

Ideally we wouldn't need to have these rules but once the new codex come out and you face 12" flamers when yours are only 8", its gonna suck big time

I'm fairly sure that DG heavy flamers and flamers will be in that exact situation - because their variants have different names and the plague weapon ability.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Or making Chaos Space marines dreadclaws able to arrive on the board turn 1 just like the loyalist ones, or give legion traits to our vehicles too.

Ever actually tried arguing the last one?
"Well, you've got a primarch"
"Your actual legion trait is disgustingly resilient"
"Those PBC would be too strong if they could shoot and move"
"You've got other things that loyalists don't have"
"There probably is a good reason for that"
*tzeench daemon player just laughing hysterically*

Havnt had any problem so far when playing these rules, i just ask my opponents and most of the time theyre surprised that theyre not already in place.
Altough i've seen many internet fights about legion traits, which is pretty dumb considering what loyalists get compared to chaos. My rhino giving -1 leadership would NOT break the game, and don't tell me that a rhino covered in flayed skin and skulls isn't spooky.

All of those are actual responses I have gotten on that topic.

I consider myself lucky that most people i play with are pretty relaxed and unless i ask them for Giga-cheezy houserules, they'll probably accept.

In my group people are super-relaxed as well, but some of them have been part of that group for over 20 years (I joined ~10 years ago) and in that time there have been some pretty bad experiences with being to lax with what is allowed in games.
There are people which are still considered friends, but are no longer welcome to join games of 40k, and in one instance some of our members would even surrender their current game and leave a GW store if a specific former member would show up.
So unless the entire group agrees something is in dire need of change, games are played by the book.

 alextroy wrote:
It's funny how the Chapter Master stratagem went from useless at 3 CP to a must take at 2 CP. Maybe they should just increase the CP cost back up to 3 or even 4 and call it a day.

Well, they should probably put in a restriction preventing you from using that stratagem if you already have a Chapter Master in your list (or at least the list of the same subfaction).

Frankly, "Chapter Master" should be a UNIQUE datasheet (or set of datasheets, if you want armour options), which are a, blocked by keywords from appearing alongside special character Chapter Masters (in case you want to play a game set at a point where said character isn't around); and b, has the same Chapter Master ability for all datasheets representing a Chapter Master, regardless of whether SC or generic. If you want Dante, Azrael, etc to get a little bonus ability on top, keep that as its own rule.

Marneus, Azrael, Dante, Logan, Shrike, etc, can then all have a tweak to their datasheets to reinforce that they can't be fielded alongside a generic CM (with appropriate Wolf-themed tweaks for Logan ).

 Kanluwen wrote:
Well, that and they could do it with their Custom Chapter that cherrypicked the best traits.

Realistically, what needs to happen is the Chapter Master stratagem needs to be locked from certain setups. Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take it, Raven Guard shouldn't be able to take it, Wolves, BA, DA.

That and getting to use your first founding chapter's strategems.

I suspect a lot of the other armies would have been nastier if you could use sub-faction specific Strategems, etc on the custom trait subfactions.

sanguine40k wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Well, that and they could do it with their Custom Chapter that cherrypicked the best traits.

Realistically, what needs to happen is the Chapter Master stratagem needs to be locked from certain setups. Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take it, Raven Guard shouldn't be able to take it, Wolves, BA, DA.

That and getting to use your first founding chapter's strategems.

I suspect a lot of the other armies would have been nastier if you could use sub-faction specific Strategems, etc on the custom trait subfactions.

So what about Ultramarine armies before Calgar was Chapter Master?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Nobody should be able to simply reroll all hits just by putting an HQ in their list. Or better, nobody should be able to reroll all hits period. When the god of dice decides you're gak-ed you should be gak-ed, not just take second chances. The game needs luck or just plain old botching to be part of the game and marine weapons and models are priced on the assumption that they fail to hit 1/3 of the time.
[snip]

For the majority of 8th the big problem Marines faced was that Marine models and weapons were priced on the assumption that they were sitting in that reroll to-hit and to-wound aura, and it gimped them if you didn't have those auras.

...not that you don't have a point under the current point costs, but I somehow doubt it's going to stay that way.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Well, that and they could do it with their Custom Chapter that cherrypicked the best traits.

Realistically, what needs to happen is the Chapter Master stratagem needs to be locked from certain setups. Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take it, Raven Guard shouldn't be able to take it, Wolves, BA, DA.

That and getting to use your first founding chapter's strategems.

I suspect a lot of the other armies would have been nastier if you could use sub-faction specific Strategems, etc on the custom trait subfactions.

So what about Ultramarine armies before Calgar was Chapter Master?

Then Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take any primaris with a chapter master. Of course GW would never write a rule prohibiting you from taking primaris...

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Well, that and they could do it with their Custom Chapter that cherrypicked the best traits.

Realistically, what needs to happen is the Chapter Master stratagem needs to be locked from certain setups. Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take it, Raven Guard shouldn't be able to take it, Wolves, BA, DA.

That and getting to use your first founding chapter's strategems.

I suspect a lot of the other armies would have been nastier if you could use sub-faction specific Strategems, etc on the custom trait subfactions.

So what about Ultramarine armies before Calgar was Chapter Master?

Then Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take any primaris with a chapter master. Of course GW would never write a rule prohibiting you from taking primaris...

Then what about after Calgar dies?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Nobody should be able to simply reroll all hits just by putting an HQ in their list. Or better, nobody should be able to reroll all hits period. When the god of dice decides you're gak-ed you should be gak-ed, not just take second chances. The game needs luck or just plain old botching to be part of the game and marine weapons and models are priced on the assumption that they fail to hit 1/3 of the time.

When you put Chapter Masters and exploding 6's suddenly you get models that make more hits than they have attacks c o n s i s t e n t l y and that's where the stupidity happens. Then it compounds by making Chapter master an aura and getting the relic to make it 9" just because. Suddenly the whole army rerolls all hits which makes someone wonder why did GW even bother to give the models a ballistic skill stat in the first place.

Chapter master should not be a thing. If it has to be, at least make it a CP stratagem targeting one unit for a turn. Start of shooting or fight phase, pay 1 CP, choose a unit within 6" of your captain. That unit may reroll hit rolls for that phase. Still strong but not broken. That hard to imagine huh?

Listen dude. I could easily say that no unit should be able to move twice or shoot twice in a turn but pretty much every army has something to this effect. I think there is a case to be made that auras can effect to many units at once and that is a reasonable arguement but there are plenty of armies that have OP auras. Black legion can do it with Abaddon / A troop master re-rolls all wound in melee for a full melee army/ Cawl does it for admech. It's not like these armies are specifically dominting ether. In fact most admech and choas armies use different factions because other stratagems are considered better...like+1 W +1 Damage for plasma for Ryza and Alpha legion has a host of great stuff. I agree there was no point in dropping it to 2 CP...they shoulda raised it to 4 CP IMO.

Just don't think about it the way you are - every army has a host of powerful combinations that they can use in a game. The combinations are the balance issue and they make the game really unbalanced and unenjoyable.

Yeah... I usually skip Chapter master since I'm running vulkan, and I really don't care if my bolt guns get to reroll 2s as well. Might change once the hit reroll for salamanders is gone, though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Well, that and they could do it with their Custom Chapter that cherrypicked the best traits.

Realistically, what needs to happen is the Chapter Master stratagem needs to be locked from certain setups. Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take it, Raven Guard shouldn't be able to take it, Wolves, BA, DA.

That and getting to use your first founding chapter's strategems.

I suspect a lot of the other armies would have been nastier if you could use sub-faction specific Strategems, etc on the custom trait subfactions.

So what about Ultramarine armies before Calgar was Chapter Master?

Then Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take any primaris with a chapter master. Of course GW would never write a rule prohibiting you from taking primaris...

Then what about after Calgar dies?

Presumably GW releases a new Special Character *shrug*

I'll repeat - make a generic Chapter Master datasheet (or datasheets, for armour/gear variants). Use keywords so you can only field one Chapter Master (or SC CM equivalent, in the case of Marneus, Dante, Azrael, Logan, et al) in a given Matched Play army. Make sure the CM re-roll rule is consistent between these datasheets. By the time you're running a force where it'd be reasonable for more than one to appear, you're either in Open or Apocalypse territory anyway.

*EDIT* - I forgot to ask, though I meant to - is there seriously nothing stopping you using the CM stratagem on a special character?

 Dysartes wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Well, that and they could do it with their Custom Chapter that cherrypicked the best traits.

Realistically, what needs to happen is the Chapter Master stratagem needs to be locked from certain setups. Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take it, Raven Guard shouldn't be able to take it, Wolves, BA, DA.

That and getting to use your first founding chapter's strategems.

I suspect a lot of the other armies would have been nastier if you could use sub-faction specific Strategems, etc on the custom trait subfactions.

So what about Ultramarine armies before Calgar was Chapter Master?

Then Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take any primaris with a chapter master. Of course GW would never write a rule prohibiting you from taking primaris...

Then what about after Calgar dies?

Presumably GW releases a new Special Character *shrug*

I'll repeat - make a generic Chapter Master datasheet (or datasheets, for armour/gear variants). Use keywords so you can only field one Chapter Master (or SC CM equivalent, in the case of Marneus, Dante, Azrael, Logan, et al) in a given Matched Play army. Make sure the CM re-roll rule is consistent between these datasheets. By the time you're running a force where it'd be reasonable for more than one to appear, you're either in Open or Apocalypse territory anyway.

honest to god question, have you ever seen someone running calgar alongside a upgraded chapter master? because if so they're cheating

The wording in the strat is pretty clear

Use this stratagem before the battle if your army does not include a Chapter Master model....

Calgar has (as does Shrike and Gabriel Angelos) the chapter master key word. You CANNOT upgrade a captain to a chapter master if you have a Chapter Master in your ARMY. (note army, not detachment)

 Dysartes wrote:
*EDIT* - I forgot to ask, though I meant to - is there seriously nothing stopping you using the CM stratagem on a special character?

"Select one ADEPTUS ASTARTES CAPTAIN model from your army that is not a named character."

This Hellblaster datasheet has been doing the rounds on Reddit, I assume it's real unlike the Carnifex.

I haven't seen a single datasheet that has a profile for overcharging plasma. How come?

Because none of these datasheets have special rules.

Because those are simplified data sheets for the Open players that don't have a codex.

Because everyone and his dog is using the over-charged profile 99% of the time.

 Mixzremixzd wrote:
This Hellblaster datasheet has been doing the rounds on Reddit, I assume it's real unlike the Carnifex.

Three shot Assault plasma gun. Gonna be some salt right there.

The Heavy going to D2 makes sense though.

Ragnar69 wrote:
Because those are simplified data sheets for the Open players that don't have a codex.

Nope.

They're 'at a glance' reference sheets, set up so they don't have to print full datasheets into instructions in multiple languages. Hence why everything is done with an icon rather than spelled out.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:
Because those are simplified data sheets for the Open players that don't have a codex.

Nope.

They're 'at a glance' reference sheets, set up so they don't have to print full datasheets into instructions in multiple languages. Hence why everything is done with an icon rather than spelled out.

And how does that contradict my statement? Or have you ever seen a guy pull out a bunch of build instructions instead of a codex at a tournament? Nobody playing battleforged ever gives a closer look to those data sheets....except right now when they give glimpses to future foresee

 Jidmah wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
*EDIT* - I forgot to ask, though I meant to - is there seriously nothing stopping you using the CM stratagem on a special character?

"Select one ADEPTUS ASTARTES CAPTAIN model from your army that is not a named character."

Thank you, Jidmah - I didn't get around to picking up SM8.5, so wasn't sure of the current wording.

And Brian, there were a couple of people further up the thread that seemed to be talking about upgrading named characters, which is another reason I was unsure.

Ragnar69 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:
Because those are simplified data sheets for the Open players that don't have a codex.

Nope.

They're 'at a glance' reference sheets, set up so they don't have to print full datasheets into instructions in multiple languages. Hence why everything is done with an icon rather than spelled out.

And how does that contradict my statement? Or have you ever seen a guy pull out a bunch of build instructions instead of a codex at a tournament? Nobody playing battleforged ever gives a closer look to those data sheets....except right now when they give glimpses to future foresee

Your statement was "for the Open players that don't have a codex". It's an 'at a glance' reference sheet, like what we've gotten in WarCry on the cards there. The unit profile cards? There is zero text on them. Just pictures. All the icons point you towards a 'master sheet' and show a photo of the unit.
Here's an example:

All those 'glyphs'? They have a meaning. It's shown here:

Notice that the reverse side gives you the name of the units along with their picture too.

Edge of Silence from Indomitus literally tells you to reference the Codex. They're ditching the idea of codices being 'optional' at this point.

Also: Using the instructions was literally the only way people were able to play the Techpriest Manipulus and Skorpius until Engine War dropped.

Kan's right. The whole point of these is to give rules to players in any language. They're just quick-start rules for someone who just got the box.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Well, that and they could do it with their Custom Chapter that cherrypicked the best traits.

Realistically, what needs to happen is the Chapter Master stratagem needs to be locked from certain setups. Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take it, Raven Guard shouldn't be able to take it, Wolves, BA, DA.

That and getting to use your first founding chapter's strategems.

I suspect a lot of the other armies would have been nastier if you could use sub-faction specific Strategems, etc on the custom trait subfactions.

So what about Ultramarine armies before Calgar was Chapter Master?

Then Ultramarines shouldn't be able to take any primaris with a chapter master. Of course GW would never write a rule prohibiting you from taking primaris...

Rhinos, Razorbacks, landraider, droppod. Duh.