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Yeah, GW uses the words "draw and discard" and I know quite a few reviewers assumed that you would hold a hand of cards, so I was surprised myself.

It doesn't really explicitly say that you have to reveal them, but something like teleporter homer (requires you to perform an action till your next command phase) is just awkward with hidden cards.
"I peform an action" "Which one, what for?" "I'm not telling!" "Can I see the rules?" "No!".

Same goes for cards that require you to keep a tally.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Toofast wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Well if you're completely off guard by someone using a Strat to lower your LD or some garbage like that, I dunno what to tell you.

Again you're cherry picking strats to pretend gotcha moments don't exist. If they don't exist for you, congrats on having the time to sit down and learn 700 stratagems and special rules. For the other 99.9% of the playerbase, they both exist and feel bad when they happen.

Citation needed for the 99% of the playerbase that hadn't memorized Transhuman Physiology and Agents of Vect after they became rules.

Or the real Gotcha special rules like Salamanders rerolling a hit roll! Man that catches me off guard every time!

You're one hell of a player if your opponent has never used a stratagem you didn't know about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:
Having just endured the last 5 pages at once, I have a thought re the 40k single game per opponent per round vs MTG "best of 3" per opponent per round.

What if you ran 501 point "best of 3" per round for an event (501 to be technically Incursion, and thus not force folks into only 1 patrol, but still small and fast, extra CP would help too)? Would that be roughly the same as a 2000 point round?

I feel like the smaller boards would be a huge plus. Also 3 games on the same terrain could mean you choose a different deployment zone, let alone deployment style.

500 point games suck and I have zero interest in playing them. When I buy a new army, I usually don't even bother playing games until I have at least 1k because the games are just not fun. They're way too swingy based on dice or listbuilding. You brought a tank and your opponent couldn't fit a dedicated AT unit into 500 pts? You auto win. You bring a redemptor and roll 1 for shots, then it gets blown off the table in your opponents turn and you auto lose. Positioning and shot selection don't really matter because it's just "shoot his 1 big model with my strong guns, my troops shoot/melee his troops, my hq shoots at/tries to fight his hq depending on which one I'm better at". It would absolutely kill the competitive scene to go to a format like that because I don't know a single person that actually enjoys 500pt games more than 2k games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Was 9th recived bad by the community or was 9th recived bad and the sells went down. Because if the second thing happened, GW may change some stuff, maybe not for the better, but they will change it. If is just the first option of players being unhappy, the reaction may come delayed and probably will not be what the players want, with a good chance of fixs not really fiting the 10th ed rule set.

I mean how many people are happy today that GW fixed eliminators and centurions?

Anecdotally, my FLGS tournament has always had a 32 player cap. This month it's down to 16 because that's all that were showing up the last couple months anyway. I'm seeing similar things that I saw in 7th, less 40k games and more games of literally anything else. This is even true at the Warhammer store where people are mostly playing Necromunda and AoS.

Well early 8th we had , at my old store, over 40 people playing. the new army/new player tournament had 36 players. When 8th was ending, out of all the new players, there were 4 left, including me.

Toofast wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Toofast wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Well if you're completely off guard by someone using a Strat to lower your LD or some garbage like that, I dunno what to tell you.

Again you're cherry picking strats to pretend gotcha moments don't exist. If they don't exist for you, congrats on having the time to sit down and learn 700 stratagems and special rules. For the other 99.9% of the playerbase, they both exist and feel bad when they happen.

Citation needed for the 99% of the playerbase that hadn't memorized Transhuman Physiology and Agents of Vect after they became rules.

Or the real Gotcha special rules like Salamanders rerolling a hit roll! Man that catches me off guard every time!

You're one hell of a player if your opponent has never used a stratagem you didn't know about.

This is the age of the internet. None of this information is hidden. It might be one thing to struggle against an army you haven't faced before, but you shouldn't be surprised by anything.

Toofast wrote:


500 point games suck and I have zero interest in playing them.

Okay man, in another thread (or maybe this one... They blend), you really articulated your preferences, and it was pretty civil- I saw things through your eyes, and I was like "Hmm, okay, I can let that go."

I've backed off on the perfect information dumpster fire too.

But seriously dude, why not just rewrite the quoted sentence above as:

"I have zero interest in playing 500 point games"

I'd just helps minimize some of the polarity, and increases the likelihood that other people will be able to see your point of view like I did in your other post. Not trying to censor you or be PC- just suggesting that a tonal shift might improve the responses you get from people, which might ultimately make your experience on the forums more pleasant as well.

Peace.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Toofast wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Toofast wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Well if you're completely off guard by someone using a Strat to lower your LD or some garbage like that, I dunno what to tell you.

Again you're cherry picking strats to pretend gotcha moments don't exist. If they don't exist for you, congrats on having the time to sit down and learn 700 stratagems and special rules. For the other 99.9% of the playerbase, they both exist and feel bad when they happen.

Citation needed for the 99% of the playerbase that hadn't memorized Transhuman Physiology and Agents of Vect after they became rules.

Or the real Gotcha special rules like Salamanders rerolling a hit roll! Man that catches me off guard every time!

You're one hell of a player if your opponent has never used a stratagem you didn't know about.

This is the age of the internet. None of this information is hidden. It might be one thing to struggle against an army you haven't faced before, but you shouldn't be surprised by anything.

Obvious question: so anyone who plays 9th ed 40k needs to memorize EVERY strategem for EVERY faction?

PenitentJake wrote:

Toofast wrote:


500 point games suck and I have zero interest in playing them.

Okay man, in another thread (or maybe this one... They blend), you really articulated your preferences, and it was pretty civil- I saw things through your eyes, and I was like "Hmm, okay, I can let that go."

I've backed off on the perfect information dumpster fire too.

But seriously dude, why not just rewrite the quoted sentence above as:

"I have zero interest in playing 500 point games"

I'd just helps minimize some of the polarity, and increases the likelihood that other people will be able to see your point of view like I did in your other post. Not trying to censor you or be PC- just suggesting that a tonal shift might improve the responses you get from people, which might ultimately make your experience on the forums more pleasant as well.

Peace.

500 points games don't help for already struggling armies though, which is bizarre since it's always suggested to keep down lethality.

Arcanis161 wrote:


Obvious question: so anyone who plays 9th ed 40k needs to memorize EVERY strategem for EVERY faction?

Absolutely not. There's really a little amount of information that a player NEEDS to remember from every faction in order to avoid signficant gotchas. The real difference between 8th/9th and older editions is that several armies have countless units now, and remembering the units' profiles and abilities is much harder than remembering the few important stratagems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

500 points games don't help for already struggling armies though, which is bizarre since it's always suggested to keep down lethality.

Issue with 500 points games is that it harshly penalizes armies that don't have functioning cheap units. 1000-1500 are much more balanced formats.

The number of units actualy used is rather small though. What creates the problems are over laping army rules. Stratagems on top of army rules, on top of per turn activation rules on top how wierd movment in assault is, if your dudes happen to have heroic intervention on units and not just heroes.

Arcanis161 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Toofast wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Toofast wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Well if you're completely off guard by someone using a Strat to lower your LD or some garbage like that, I dunno what to tell you.

Again you're cherry picking strats to pretend gotcha moments don't exist. If they don't exist for you, congrats on having the time to sit down and learn 700 stratagems and special rules. For the other 99.9% of the playerbase, they both exist and feel bad when they happen.

Citation needed for the 99% of the playerbase that hadn't memorized Transhuman Physiology and Agents of Vect after they became rules.

Or the real Gotcha special rules like Salamanders rerolling a hit roll! Man that catches me off guard every time!

You're one hell of a player if your opponent has never used a stratagem you didn't know about.

This is the age of the internet. None of this information is hidden. It might be one thing to struggle against an army you haven't faced before, but you shouldn't be surprised by anything.

Obvious question: so anyone who plays 9th ed 40k needs to memorize EVERY strategem for EVERY faction?

There's not a lot and there's tons of overlap in between factions. For example, Night Lords and Eldar both have a -1 to hit Strat. If you get rid of the funky naming, it's not hard to keep track.

Quite frankly I've heard stories here of people forgetting to use entire units on their turn. I'm not surprised y'all don't memorize Strats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:


Obvious question: so anyone who plays 9th ed 40k needs to memorize EVERY strategem for EVERY faction?

Absolutely not. There's really a little amount of information that a player NEEDS to remember from every faction in order to avoid signficant gotchas. The real difference between 8th/9th and older editions is that several armies have countless units now, and remembering the units' profiles and abilities is much harder than remembering the few important stratagems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

500 points games don't help for already struggling armies though, which is bizarre since it's always suggested to keep down lethality.

Issue with 500 points games is that it harshly penalizes armies that don't have functioning cheap units. 1000-1500 are much more balanced formats.

I don't mind 1500 but I definitely like bringing more models. 1000 is just as bad as 500 to me though. The ideal is 1500-1750

Toofast wrote:

500 point games suck and I have zero interest in playing them. When I buy a new army, I usually don't even bother playing games until I have at least 1k because the games are just not fun. They're way too swingy based on dice or listbuilding. You brought a tank and your opponent couldn't fit a dedicated AT unit into 500 pts? You auto win. You bring a redemptor and roll 1 for shots, then it gets blown off the table in your opponents turn and you auto lose. Positioning and shot selection don't really matter because it's just "shoot his 1 big model with my strong guns, my troops shoot/melee his troops, my hq shoots at/tries to fight his hq depending on which one I'm better at". It would absolutely kill the competitive scene to go to a format like that because I don't know a single person that actually enjoys 500pt games more than 2k games.

Want to know what's really fun?

Playing 500pt games with Necrons back in 3rd/4th edition.

Well let's see, my cheapest HQ costs 100pts so that's 400pts left. Then I only have one troop choice, so I guess I'm taking Necron Warriors. They cost 18pts per model and have to be taken in units at least 10 strong. So that's 360pts for my two mandatory troop choices.

That leaves me with . . . 40pts for wargear and units beyond the basic HQ + 2 Troops.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

There's not a lot and there's tons of overlap in between factions. For example, Night Lords and Eldar both have a -1 to hit Strat. If you get rid of the funky naming, it's not hard to keep track.

Lightning fast reactions works on Non-Monsters in any phase
In midnight clad works on infantry in the shooting phase only

so no, theyre not the same strat.

And idk why you're flexing you giga gamer brain.

 vipoid wrote:

Toofast wrote:

500 point games suck and I have zero interest in playing them. When I buy a new army, I usually don't even bother playing games until I have at least 1k because the games are just not fun. They're way too swingy based on dice or listbuilding. You brought a tank and your opponent couldn't fit a dedicated AT unit into 500 pts? You auto win. You bring a redemptor and roll 1 for shots, then it gets blown off the table in your opponents turn and you auto lose. Positioning and shot selection don't really matter because it's just "shoot his 1 big model with my strong guns, my troops shoot/melee his troops, my hq shoots at/tries to fight his hq depending on which one I'm better at". It would absolutely kill the competitive scene to go to a format like that because I don't know a single person that actually enjoys 500pt games more than 2k games.

Want to know what's really fun?

Playing 500pt games with Necrons back in 3rd/4th edition.

Well let's see, my cheapest HQ costs 100pts so that's 400pts left. Then I only have one troop choice, so I guess I'm taking Necron Warriors. They cost 18pts per model and have to be taken in units at least 10 strong. So that's 360pts for my two mandatory troop choices.

That leaves me with . . . 40pts for wargear and units beyond the basic HQ + 2 Troops.

Have been a Necron player since 3rd. Our favourite points to play is 500-1,000. The current 2,000 point standard is mindblowing. I only recently broke 3k total for my Necrons, and that happed when I came back for 8th.

500 points is a really crucial starting point. It teaches you to focus on units and learn how they work, how to run them. Then you build up, add units that you like.

With the restrictions on Combat Patrol games being an issue, we've decided to go with 501 point to technically be Incursion scale, which opens up different detachments, and allows 2. This really helps to even out the "but my army is too static at low points" issue as you now have more cp, and change the detachments available.

Personally I've had a blast running a Destroyer Lord and max Scarabs, is been my dream to run a classic sleeping tomb, Scarabs, Spyders, maybe the awesome FW ones, oldcron tomb. Do I win? Hahahahaha no. Do I have fun? YES!

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

There's not a lot and there's tons of overlap in between factions. For example, Night Lords and Eldar both have a -1 to hit Strat. If you get rid of the funky naming, it's not hard to keep track.

Lightning fast reactions works on Non-Monsters in any phase
In midnight clad works on infantry in the shooting phase only

so no, theyre not the same strat.

And idk why you're flexing you giga gamer brain.

They REALLY are the same thing though. If you're not expecting your opponent to pop a -1 to hit on an important unit, that's you being a bad player.
OnE wOrK iN mELeE I'm well fething aware dude LOL

 vipoid wrote:

Spoiler:

Toofast wrote:

500 point games suck and I have zero interest in playing them. When I buy a new army, I usually don't even bother playing games until I have at least 1k because the games are just not fun. They're way too swingy based on dice or listbuilding. You brought a tank and your opponent couldn't fit a dedicated AT unit into 500 pts? You auto win. You bring a redemptor and roll 1 for shots, then it gets blown off the table in your opponents turn and you auto lose. Positioning and shot selection don't really matter because it's just "shoot his 1 big model with my strong guns, my troops shoot/melee his troops, my hq shoots at/tries to fight his hq depending on which one I'm better at". It would absolutely kill the competitive scene to go to a format like that because I don't know a single person that actually enjoys 500pt games more than 2k games.

Want to know what's really fun?

Playing 500pt games with Necrons back in 3rd/4th edition.

Well let's see, my cheapest HQ costs 100pts so that's 400pts left. Then I only have one troop choice, so I guess I'm taking Necron Warriors. They cost 18pts per model and have to be taken in units at least 10 strong. So that's 360pts for my two mandatory troop choices.

That leaves me with . . . 40pts for wargear and units beyond the basic HQ + 2 Troops.

And the nearly-must-take Ressurection Orb was 40 points! The army made itself!

 Insectum7 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Spoiler:

Toofast wrote:

500 point games suck and I have zero interest in playing them. When I buy a new army, I usually don't even bother playing games until I have at least 1k because the games are just not fun. They're way too swingy based on dice or listbuilding. You brought a tank and your opponent couldn't fit a dedicated AT unit into 500 pts? You auto win. You bring a redemptor and roll 1 for shots, then it gets blown off the table in your opponents turn and you auto lose. Positioning and shot selection don't really matter because it's just "shoot his 1 big model with my strong guns, my troops shoot/melee his troops, my hq shoots at/tries to fight his hq depending on which one I'm better at". It would absolutely kill the competitive scene to go to a format like that because I don't know a single person that actually enjoys 500pt games more than 2k games.

Want to know what's really fun?

Playing 500pt games with Necrons back in 3rd/4th edition.

Well let's see, my cheapest HQ costs 100pts so that's 400pts left. Then I only have one troop choice, so I guess I'm taking Necron Warriors. They cost 18pts per model and have to be taken in units at least 10 strong. So that's 360pts for my two mandatory troop choices.

That leaves me with . . . 40pts for wargear and units beyond the basic HQ + 2 Troops.

And the nearly-must-take Ressurection Orb was 40 points! The army made itself!

Eh for that low points I didn't take it. It was all about the Destroyer body upgrade

EviscerationPlague wrote:

500 points games don't help for already struggling armies though, which is bizarre since it's always suggested to keep down lethality.

Well, it usually prevent opponents from being able to spam their best units against you. When you don't have enough points to bring the maximum number of your best, it's harder to bully a disadvantaged army. Since you must field a single patrol detachment, you're required to bring one HQ and one troop; armies with really strong troops are at an advantage because:

1. Troops are the easiest unit to spam in a patrol
2. Having good troops means not sacrificing Obsec for hotness

 Blackie wrote:

Issue with 500 points games is that it harshly penalizes armies that don't have functioning cheap units. 1000-1500 are much more balanced formats.

At 1500, I can take two of any type of detachment I need to max out my best, most efficient unit and you can do the same, so if my best unit is much better than your best, you're sunk. I also get twice as many starting CP, so I can burn more strats to maximize first turn advantage or spend more of them on extra relics/ WL traits to maximize my combo potential.

Karol wrote:
The number of units actualy used is rather small though. What creates the problems are over laping army rules. Stratagems on top of army rules, on top of per turn activation rules on top how wierd movment in assault is, if your dudes happen to have heroic intervention on units and not just heroes.

As mentioned above, the higher the PL the more starting CP, the more of that layering stuff you have access to- whether you buy it up front with requisition strats or just save it so you can burn 4 strats on your first turn.

Obviously the potential exists for bad matchups at 25 PL just as it does at 100 PL. And in fact, that's why I'm saying "PL" instead of "points" because at 25PL, filling all of your units with standard weapons and bringing side board models to max heavies and specials in those squads allows you to make adjustments to level the playing field without having to rebuild your list from the ground up.

I can't testify to the "truth" of anything I've said here in a matched play game, because I don't play matched, but these observations are consistent with my experience in Crusade games played at home amongst friends.

How do my Nurgle Daemons sideboard?

4-Poxbringer, no options
5-Spoilpox Scrivener, no options
3-Nurglings, no options except more bases
5-Plaguebearers, technically have options! They're straight upgrades that would never not be taken. Also more models.
2-Beasts Of Nurgle, see Nurglings
5-Plague Drones, see Plaguebearers

Daemons shouldnt be considered a standalone faction let alone the individual gods daemons.

@JNA

I don't have the PA with extra content for Daemons so I can't check it- I doubt there's anything in there that would help in the way the same way that equipment upgrades can help other armies.

You're absolutely correct from what I can see with a glance through the dex- Daemons of any stripe don't have the same kinds of equipment options as other armies, and that is unlikely to change with a new dex, because it would require changes to the kit.

Regarding the few options that you do have (instrument and icon), I'd say the instrument is useful on the Plague Bearers because they are slow and have only melee weapons, so +1 advance and +1 charge, while not super powerful, probably can come in handy. Not such a big deal on the faster moving Drones.

The Icon's effect is cool enough, but what makes it terrible is the infrequency of the effect being triggered, and I'd absolutely agree that in a situation where you're paying for it, it would never be worth it...

But that's why I recommended playing PL- because you AREN'T paying for it. Which means there is no downside to taking it. It isn't going to be a real game changer for you... Except for the one in twenty or so games where it is- and that's a thing that wouldn't have happened in a game with points- because in THAT game, you're absolutely right- it's a trap option that should never be taken.

But don't forget the other side of the equation- your opponent brought units that were prepared to either play with weapon upgrades or not. So in the case of Daemons, the way that this PL flexibility pays off is that your opponent can choose to run without upgrades if they think that's going to lead to a more fun game.

It's fair to say that this kind of adjustment is the type that COULD be made in a points based game- the opponent could just choose to replace the specials and heavies they brought with the basic load out, though doing so would effectively lead to a points handicap.

And again, it's also fair to point out that whether you're playing points or power, when you're playing a pick-up game with a stranger, you may meet someone who would find it more fun to steamroll you than dial it down.

PenitentJake 804474 11355156 wrote:

As mentioned above, the higher the PL the more starting CP, the more of that layering stuff you have access to- whether you buy it up front with requisition strats or just save it so you can burn 4 strats on your first turn.

Obviously the potential exists for bad matchups at 25 PL just as it does at 100 PL. And in fact, that's why I'm saying "PL" instead of "points" because at 25PL, filling all of your units with standard weapons and bringing side board models to max heavies and specials in those squads allows you to make adjustments to level the playing field without having to rebuild your list from the ground up.

I can't testify to the "truth" of anything I've said here in a matched play game, because I don't play matched, but these observations are consistent with my experience in Crusade games played at home amongst friends.

What about factions that can't side board or don't have heavy weapon worth taking? And I am asking how such a problem is delt in crusade, as I have exactly 0 personal expiriance with it.

It's fair to say that this kind of adjustment is the type that COULD be made in a points based game- the opponent could just choose to replace the specials and heavies they brought with the basic load out, though doing so would effectively lead to a points handicap.

The problem arrises when the army doesn't have options to switch out, and I will ignore the fact that someone may just not physically have the weapon to play it in a given momen. And NDK, Void weaver or most of the stuff in the custodes codex doesn't really have options. And if it does then they are either free or they aren't free and you don't want to take them ever. It also creates the problem of pushing the army in to the even more expensive zone. Because now it is not just around 1000$ for a 2000pts army, but it is that plus what ever sideboard units and upgrades you need.I guess not a problem for people playing 20+years with thousands of points in an army, but a deal breaker for anyone who is just starting or just has 2000pts.

In terms of the 'scale' of what 500pts could be - a minor hero, 1-2 squads of doods, maybe a dreadnought or a bigger bugger of some kind - I think it's perfect. Reminds me a lot id what i used to love about my early wmh games. The only problem is gws rules, at best, don't help so you need to either collaborate on 'matching' your lists or use a better rules set/homebrew.

And to be honest at those smaller scales, I'd rather be playing kill team or necromunda anyway.

Karol wrote:


What about factions that can't side board or don't have heavy weapon worth taking? And I am asking how such a problem is delt in crusade, as I have exactly 0 personal expiriance with it.

In this post, I'm mostly talking about game size. Obviously, my thoughts on Crusade are pretty well known by now- but this little series of posts is more about game size.

Since you ask about Crusade here though, it can be somewhat helpful. If a Crusade starts small, then you can rely in the small size of the game to shield you from some of the spamming that can happen in larger games, but you're also gaining battle honours with that small force; those battle honours can make weaker units stronger. Once your rosters grow to the point where your opponent can start to spam, your core starting force may have some extra tools in the tool box.

Now, your opponent is gaining battle honours too, so this isn't a magic bullet. But it does have potential.

As for the question about units without good squad weapon upgrades, it's the same answer I gave about Daemons above. Since you can't effectively scale up, you take the best options you do have since you're playing PL and they don't cost extra. See, when matched players say an upgrade isn't good, what they mean is that it isn't worth the extra points you have to pay to use it. But in a PL game where you aren't paying a cost to include an upgrade, every upgrade is worth taking.

But the real trick is that in order to solve balance issue, your opponent doesn't scale up even though they could do so without paying for it just like you did. And like I said, if you're playing a pickup games you might come up against someone who would rather crush you than have a game that is fun. Because you've told us so much about what is like where you play, I know that your opponents would always choose to bring and play their most powerful build against you, even if it wasn't as fun as having a closer game.

But again, in a 25 PL game, they can't spam as many of their best units and they have fewer CP to achieve combos.

Karol wrote:


The problem arrises when the army doesn't have options to switch out, and I will ignore the fact that someone may just not physically have the weapon to play it in a given momen.

True.

But you're still going to be in a better position than in a 2k points game, because you can decide to swap in the best options you do have and your opponent can choose not to, and neither of those choices affect the cost of the army when you use PL. And again the, small size prevents them from spamming and using as many combos as they can in a larger game. This gives the weak army the edge. Tink of it this way: if you assign each unit a number between 1 and 10 representing how good it is, and your best unit rates 7 while your opponent's best unit rates a 10.

In a 25PL game, you might only be able to take one of those units, so the difference in effectiveness is 3. It sucks, and you're at a disadvantage, sure.

But now scale the game up to 100 PL. Now you spam your best and you rate 21. He spams his best and rates 30. Now the difference is 9!

Karol wrote:


And NDK, Void weaver or most of the stuff in the custodes codex doesn't really have options.

At 25 pl, you get one dreadknight with the best load out you can give it. He gets probably 2 void weavers with NO upgrades at all- just the standard load out. You are at a disadvantage.

At 100 PL, you get 3 NDK with your best loadout, and he gets as many as 9 void weavers with his best loadout. Bigger disadvantage than the small game, right?

Karol wrote:

they aren't free and you don't want to take them ever.

This is never an issue with PL. Bringing the best loadout cost the same as bringing the squad naked when you play PL- that's also why side boarding is easy with PL and hard with points.

Karol wrote:

It also creates the problem of pushing the army in to the even more expensive zone. Because now it is not just around 1000$ for a 2000pts army, but it is that plus what ever sideboard units and upgrades you need.

But remember, what I've been talking about in this thread is not Crusade; I've been talking about small, 25 PL games.

And when I say "take the best load out you can," that's what I mean- not "the best load out that can be built"

And again Karol, I know that where you play, people are always going to bring the best army they can, because winning is so important and fun for them that they would rather crush you without challenging themselves than play a game where there is a chance they might lose.

But it is still true that any disadvantage you have only multiplies as the game gets bigger.

This is never an issue with PL. Bringing the best loadout cost the same as bringing the squad naked when you play PL- that's also why side boarding is easy with PL and hard with points.

The problem with PL is that GK point costs are created as if you were taking all the options, but you never want to take the special weapons, because they are that bad, that they are just a downgrade. So in a setting where the PL cost is avarged out of a unit cost with no upgrades and max upgrades it creates a situation when you are handicaped by the army rules, and you can't not pay the extra PL for the stuff, because the rules assume you always take it.

And again Karol, I know that where you play, people are always going to bring the best army they can, because winning is so important and fun for them that they would rather crush you without challenging themselves than play a game where there is a chance they might lose.

It is less about crushing, and more about a lot of people not having the money to buy 4000pts of models and then travel around with it to the store. People have their 2000pts, maybe a bit more and what ever is the most optimal out of the stuff they have they bring to the store. Even dudes that have cars don't bring gigantic collections to play with. And building armies at the store just means, other people with already ready armies, will take the tables and now you can wait an hour for them to finish, hoping your opponent doesn't get bored and goes home or finds an opponent he would rather play.
If crushing happens in store games, it is mostly of two kinds. Some plays a post new codex eldar faction book or they got a new codex and overnight their collection went from avarge or even below avarge list to the GT WAAC list of doom.


But thanks for the explanation, I have little to no expiriance with small games and how stuff scales down. I can imagine though that some armies which come with pre build formations you have to take to make them work, do not scale well in to under 2000pts. no idea how something like knights or custodes works at 500pts. Crusade or not.

Karol wrote:

The problem with PL is that GK point costs are created as if you were taking all the options, but you never want to take the special weapons, because they are that bad, that they are just a downgrade. So in a setting where the PL cost is avarged out of a unit cost with no upgrades and max upgrades it creates a situation when you are handicaped by the army rules, and you can't not pay the extra PL for the stuff, because the rules assume you always take it.

That's fair, but because of the lack of granularity with PL- you're basically looking at the built in value of min max average accounts for maybe 2PL for every 25PL you bring. And of course, because of the way list building works with PL (ie. > x models = x PL vs points per model), the extra 1 or 2 PL wouldn't actually make a difference if you had it.

And remember, what we're talking about is two people who agree they want an even match being able to make adjustments in the moment at a pick-up game without changing the value of their army list- a thing that is much, much harder to do in a game with points because any modification you make requires you to adjust the list to maintain the point value.

Karol wrote:

It is less about crushing, and more about a lot of people not having the money to buy 4000pts of models and then travel around with it to the store. People have their 2000pts, maybe a bit more and what ever is the most optimal out of the stuff they have they bring to the store.

This is why I'm talking about games that are less than 2k (100PL). Specifically, I am saying that the smaller the force, the less impact imbalance has because there is less capacity in a small force to spam the broken thing. Remember the "would you rather face and army with 2 voidweavers in it with an army that included 1 NDK, or face an army with 9 void weavers using an army that includes 3 NDK part of my post?"

Now I have been talking about 25PL forces, but you don't have to go so low if you like bigger games. If you bought 100PL of models, you don't buy 10 more PL to make a sideboard- you play a 90PL game, and the 10PL of models you didn't use are the models that become your sideboard.

Karol wrote:

But thanks for the explanation, I have little to no expiriance with small games and how stuff scales down. I can imagine though that some armies which come with pre build formations you have to take to make them work, do not scale well in to under 2000pts. no idea how something like knights or custodes works at 500pts.

No problem man. And you are right, it's a better solution for some armies than others. Small Knights are either 7 or 8 PL each; big Knights rang from 22-31 PL.

Anyway man, like I said I know none of this will work for you anyway. If I lived in Poland, I'd set up a 25PL - 50PL mini campaign for you against an Ascendent Chaos Cult that was working toward a huge summoning scenario- I'd bring a my collection of Ordo Malleus models so that they could be added to your force as the story required. The Chaos force would have missions revolving around rituals; the Malleus/ GK would investigate, and the degree of success would affect their capacity to interfere with rituals.

Then we'd peel people away from the toxic meta one or two at a time until the scene was healthy.

Or just make ONE like minded friend and do it yourself. If the GW school program runs in Poland, you could probably get support for it if you ran it at your school instead of a store. Could lead to free stuff. I don't know a lot of the details of their school program, but I know that one exists.

Lots of interesting stuff to think about. Thank you for explaining. I am in a sports school and for only just a year now, so not going to do anything. No idea if there is a GW program like that. I assume there is not.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:
I made the cruchiest list I could for Adepta Sororitas... like explicitly trying to get as many points per power level spent. 98 PL, 2550 points, somewhere between 26-27 points per PL, which is radically higher than the traditional 20:1 ratio.

The list... uh...

My go-to example for a list built to optimize the points/PL ratio rather than being good in 8th involved lots of Deathwatch Veterans, who were 2PL/model but you could take frag cannons and thunderhammers on all of them to produce a list that was technically over 30pts/PL but also trivially easy to wipe in a turn or two.

Tau Empire, Any sept, vanguard detachment.

1 Crisis commander with triple fusion blasters, shield generator, iridium armour

5 squads of 6 Crisis Bodyguards with triple CIB, Shield Generators, 2 with Iridium Armour

97 PL, 3070 points, ~31.6 points per PL. It has 80 T5 3+/4++ wounds, 46 T5 2+/4++ wounds, puts out 270 S7/8 AP2 D1/2 shots, 3 S8 AP4 Dd6 shots.

It could go higher if you swapped the Crisis Commander for a lower PL HQ (Ethereal), allowing a unit of 2 Crisis Bodyguards (triple CIB and Shield Gen) to be added and taking it to 31.8 points per PL.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
They REALLY are the same thing though. If you're not expecting your opponent to pop a -1 to hit on an important unit, that's you being a bad player.

If you have to use heuristics like 'assume your opponent can do something when you shoot' in lieu of actually knowing the rules your opponent could use, then there's a problem.

Especially when that heuristic could trip you up against any faction that can't pop -1s at will.

 catbarf wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
They REALLY are the same thing though. If you're not expecting your opponent to pop a -1 to hit on an important unit, that's you being a bad player.

If you have to use heuristics like 'assume your opponent can do something when you shoot' in lieu of actually knowing the rules your opponent could use, then there's a problem.

Especially when that heuristic could trip you up against any faction that can't pop -1s at will.

Did I get Gotcha'd though, yes or no?

If I'm a new player, and let's say I'm playing Necrons, if someone pulls a -1 to hit, then it's a gotcha. If they pull a transhuman when I shoot them with a melta, it's a gotcha. Here's the funny thing, it can be a gotcha, even if I know they have it, because it's not something intrinsic to the unit, and they can pull out of their ass whenever they want. It's annoying as hell.