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 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
It seems clear to me that Poots read Berserk, played Demon's Souls and watched some hentai, then decided to make some figures and a board game.

I love Berserk and I love Demon's Souls so that's absolutely fine with me! I don't care much for hentai though!

This.

I don't really understand why people need to validate things they like as high culture. I love snooty, intellectual things. I just read a ~150 page essay on the theory of page layout that I consider one of the most engaging books I've read this year, and most of my favorite movies are ones that make you feel emotionally drained at the end. But, I also like my fair share of B movies. That they aren't broadening human philosophy or even particularly well-made doesn't stop them from being enjoyable. Continuing the food analogy, sometimes a cheeto is just a cheeto. And I'm not saying KD is a cheeto, but I'm also not saying it's a door to the soul.

Luckily that is for each individual to decide... I'll just always argue a good reviewer is expected to be educated on the medium or at least intention of a creator, going into a review, and then as objectively as possible speak to a thing.

It does me less good if I have to take your objective points with a grain of salt, because you've already pointed out that subjectively you don't like a thing. I don't feel I can fully then trust what follows is all.

Mind you, this is all hypothetical. I didn't love Shutupandsitdown's review, but I don't find his points mechanically unfounded either. I just get the sense that he isn't a lifestyle gamer, and would be as confounded by people commiting to say, 40k and enjoying it, as he would any other game people play as something more than a one-off board-game.

For many, all that "book-keeping" persistence, narrative-building, time-commitment, IS value, and part of an experience.

Edit: I'm also not trying to validate anything. Hell, I just had a blast watching "A Christmas Horror Story" which was smoking hot, horror garbage... but entertaining as hell. I love Cheetos. :-p BUT, as I said, even a single model like Fade, shows that Kingdom Death is something aspiring to much more than Cheeto-dom, and deserves respect at the least for it... not to be dismissed outright for its art-directional, intentional, choices.

It really doesn't need validation. I like X, and that's all the more validation that's required to include something in my world. Nor is sharing one's interpretation of a work or even just a basic object validation; instead it is through that sharing which we broaden our own perspectives. It's pretty much the same idea as Dakka; share differing ideas on a topic so that we understand each other even if we don't agree. Most art is a multi-level conversation, first between you and the artist first in a "what does this make you feel?" sense, and then as you share with others you have a common ground to base the conversation around.

The bag example is a solid one. To me, a bag blowing in the breeze is not beauty so much as a lacking enforcement of litter regulations and that people are highly irresponsible. This is a valid interpretation of that bag, since that is a very practical interpretation. To someone else, that bag blowing in the breeze is an object that's swept along to destinations unknown; its purpose in life fulfilled already but somehow not consigned to the dustbin. Also, nothing that's really completely out of left field there. To a third, it's the wide-eyed description that was offered in the film. All of those views can be talked about, and each person in the conversation is broadened by the experience if they actually converse rather than spout their idea and shut their brain down (a depressingly common form of "conversation" in today's age, especially in politics). I might not change my opinion that it's just a piece of trash that somebody should have taken care of properly, but I now have another lens to view the world through as well.

Given the heavy emphasis on the way KD:M forges *your* settlement's story through the game mechanics and that it's almost guaranteed to be utterly unique in the details, it's a game and a setting that very much seems to want to have those conversations.

 Krinsath wrote:
It really doesn't need validation. I like X, and that's all the more validation that's required to include something in my world. Nor is sharing one's interpretation of a work or even just a basic object validation; instead it is through that sharing which we broaden our own perspectives. It's pretty much the same idea as Dakka; share differing ideas on a topic so that we understand each other even if we don't agree. Most art is a multi-level conversation, first between you and the artist first in a "what does this make you feel?" sense, and then as you share with others you have a common ground to base the conversation around.

I really agree, and deeply sympathize, with what you are getting at. It really is sad, or better perhaps "lonely", to see meaning or wonder in something that other people just don't get. We like to share our lives and thoughts, and there is a really high barrier to doing so in the space between one brain and another. At some point, you hit some point of experience or thought that no one you know can talk with you about or understand. That can be really depressing, particularly if it is a big part of your life. I suspect that is why many people move away from their friends and families at some point in their lives and careers; they just don't fit in anymore, and that distance is very difficult to live with.

That isn't to say that it is anyone's fault. No one can appreciate or think about everything, and much less experience it. It does mean that we are going to naturally gravitate towards people who are like us in our interests. When our interests or focus diverge from even that small group, that can be a bummer. There is something to be said for those who try hard to understand and grasp what others care about such that they can sympathize in some meaningful way with their close ones. That is probably an underappreciated virtue.

 Mymearan wrote:
Awesome video review by Shut up and sit down. It actually got me to decide to cancel my pledge. He's very measured and fair, but unaffected by the hype that had overwhelmed me. I realize now I can't really justify spending $300+ on a board game, especially one that I would have to spend an extraordinary amount of time on when I have a kid and tons of other games I want to play. It's just a game after all. Anyway, watch the whole thing, it's really good.

https://www.shutupandsitdown.com/review-kingdom-death-monster/

I am deeply sorry to see Shut up and sit down claimed even one victim with his bad review.

He is on a crusade against games that show nudity and "degrade women" and uses the same passive aggressive "reviews" to further his agenda of course he is affected by the hype KDM is such a success he has to speak about it, he did the same thing with Conan and its success a "review" filled with constant jokes about how many uncovered breasts there are in the box and had in the review the infamous article from the feminist who got fired from Asmodee NA and thought the best way to get back to them was to accuse Conan for degrading women.... something that is not fit for a game review.

For me he pushes an Agenda, he is biased and does his best to showcase the game in the worse light possible and make people think twice about pledging, he does not won the game he has borrowed the game and his review happens because of the KS success, one must question how much time he played the game before reviewing it, he even talks about the pinups who are not even part of the game proper as been what the game is about... I think he purposefully try to make each section of the game sound boring and convoluted, the only part of the game he did got right but again showcased it in the worst light possible is how excessive it is, yes, it is expensive, but you get what you pay in this box, KDM is indeed as grandeur as any hybrid of a sim and an RPG could be.

And yes, KDM is art as are many boardgames to be honest, some are in the rules others are in the presentation and other are in the immersion, KDM been the love labour of one man is art in all forms.

Wow, that's, uh, really harsh. Haven't had the time to look at it, but I've heard a lot of fans say it's pretty reasonable.

In my opinion it would be reasonable if it did not try to subtly showcase the game in the worse light possible without saying outright do not buy it, the script writer is clearly a talented man that knows the reaction he will get from outright attacking the game and covers the negativity with a "it is not for everybody" passive aggressive attitude.

It is clear from the earlier Conan review he has an agenda for games that show flesh and the success of KDM forces him to review it he clearly states that the KS made gave him the excuse to borrow a copy and review it, this clearly makes the review window for such a huge game short.

I would agree on some parts of the review, but he spotlights them as bad things and in many parts his review goes in the same tone he did the Conan review mocking, it is subtle but evident that in the whole review that he shows himself as bored and swarmed with cards making the viewer believe this game is boring and complicated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I forgot to add the parts I would agree if illustrated differently, KDM is excessive, it is a mixture of a sim game and an RPG tied in an existential horror theme that is reinforced with body horror, the monsters and survivors as well as the art utilise greatly the uncanny valley effect to stimulate the uneasiness the theme evokes and the gravity of the players choices.

I have to say everything in KDM is well cared for to evoke this theme even the name of the humans the players control, survivors, is there to reinforce the idea they are no heroes they are the bottom of the food-chain who desperately fights back in order to live just a bit more.

The fact that the players do not play a single character but a settlement and the settlement survival is what matters or the gravity of moral choices the players must make in order to make their settlement survive a bit more, the breath of a crafting system designed to make the players push their luck on bigger prey or the boss-fight AI system that reminds a lot monster hunter and the careful monitoring of the AI cards cycle n order to defeat the monster.

he could talk about all these (well he did talk about them briefly making them feel like a chore) but no he had to talk a lot of times that he cut a lions genitals and how much boobs and flesh the pinups show, models that are not part of the game...

At least the famous reviewers at Dice Tower refuse to review KD, or Shadows of Brimstone because they acknowledge that their personal beliefs would prevent them from being impartial. That I can respect.

But yeah... this review lost me the minute it tried to berate they game for being vulgar. Crap review really, and an outlet I no longer need to bother with.

As a British person I found that reviewer for SU&SD (and generally their entirely style) annoying. Overly scripted, forced humour, and that very 90s British car show style of review where they try to sound so urgent in what they are saying to the point they sound like they are in desperate need to piss.

I was dismayed at the utter lack of respect for the contents of a game they borrowed. Handling it without any care, and presenting the use of the contents as some disorganised mess which could not be further from the truth. Add to that the "Oh this game isn't for me, and you may like, and thats ok..... oh but that makes you basically like my pervert cousin" comment. A sort of hand wringing, pearl clutching that I have no care for. KDM may have nudity, but that is not sexist. It has sexual themes, but that is not sexism. Sex, procreation, child birth, are all elements of the human condition, that are presented as things to protect in a nightmare world where the human body is a thing so easily perverted and cast off. But no, the review didn't get it. The review is guilty of going for low hanging fruit.

And given this is the first time I have come across these guys, I checked out their other reviews. Pretentious and patronising. a website to ignore.

Meanwhile the latest video I did with BoW is up.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
Awesome video review by Shut up and sit down. It actually got me to decide to cancel my pledge. He's very measured and fair, but unaffected by the hype that had overwhelmed me. I realize now I can't really justify spending $300+ on a board game, especially one that I would have to spend an extraordinary amount of time on when I have a kid and tons of other games I want to play. It's just a game after all. Anyway, watch the whole thing, it's really good.

https://www.shutupandsitdown.com/review-kingdom-death-monster/

I am deeply sorry to see Shut up and sit down claimed even one victim with his bad review.

He is on a crusade against games that show nudity and "degrade women" and uses the same passive aggressive "reviews" to further his agenda of course he is affected by the hype KDM is such a success he has to speak about it, he did the same thing with Conan and its success a "review" filled with constant jokes about how many uncovered breasts there are in the box and had in the review the infamous article from the feminist who got fired from Asmodee NA and thought the best way to get back to them was to accuse Conan for degrading women.... something that is not fit for a game review.

For me he pushes an Agenda, he is biased and does his best to showcase the game in the worse light possible and make people think twice about pledging, he does not won the game he has borrowed the game and his review happens because of the KS success, one must question how much time he played the game before reviewing it, he even talks about the pinups who are not even part of the game proper as been what the game is about... I think he purposefully try to make each section of the game sound boring and convoluted, the only part of the game he did got right but again showcased it in the worst light possible is how excessive it is, yes, it is expensive, but you get what you pay in this box, KDM is indeed as grandeur as any hybrid of a sim and an RPG could be.

And yes, KDM is art as are many boardgames to be honest, some are in the rules others are in the presentation and other are in the immersion, KDM been the love labour of one man is art in all forms.

To agree with this sentiment, the "Reviewer", and I say that lightly, came right out of the gate with the agenda. I had to facepalm in the watching as he rolls right out with his less then enthusiastic, holier then thou attitude, and then goes into a "Disclaimer". Yes, the minute a "Reviewer" pops off at the hole, and spouts off an offhanded "Disclaimer" of that nature, you already know to go into their information with a large helping of salt. He was already slanting a negative opinion by frame one of the video, where he comes up for air at, "3:00 in the morning, I am going to decide to review a product..." at that point, the salt show begins. Healthy dose of agenda, mix in some negativity, a negative lead in combined with not wanting to make a serious effort at a review, and it sounds to me like sour grapes being sour. I mean, hey- if that is your reason for a decision, by all means, but seeing as the game has already been out for over a year plus, and there are plenty of open ended games and reviews out there, this guy here is coming into an already loaded discussion with negative sentiments. Misrepresentation, the ubiquitous Straw Man, Suppressed Evidence to the Contrary, and the old adage of Issue with nudity leads to a slanted, biased "Review" that you can't honestly take at face value.

As for good reviews, THIS one was not a good one at all.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:


I am deeply sorry to see Shut up and sit down claimed even one victim with his bad review.

He is on a crusade against games that show nudity and "degrade women" and uses the same passive aggressive "reviews" to further his agenda of course he is affected by the hype KDM is such a success he has to speak about it, he did the same thing with Conan and its success a "review" filled with constant jokes about how many uncovered breasts there are in the box and had in the review the infamous article from the feminist who got fired from Asmodee NA and thought the best way to get back to them was to accuse Conan for degrading women.... something that is not fit for a game review.

For me he pushes an Agenda, he is biased and does his best to showcase the game in the worse light possible and make people think twice about pledging, he does not won the game he has borrowed the game and his review happens because of the KS success, one must question how much time he played the game before reviewing it, he even talks about the pinups who are not even part of the game proper as been what the game is about... I think he purposefully try to make each section of the game sound boring and convoluted, the only part of the game he did got right but again showcased it in the worst light possible is how excessive it is, yes, it is expensive, but you get what you pay in this box, KDM is indeed as grandeur as any hybrid of a sim and an RPG could be.

And yes, KDM is art as are many boardgames to be honest, some are in the rules others are in the presentation and other are in the immersion, KDM been the love labour of one man is art in all forms.

That's a 30 minute video and he focuses on the aesthetics for about 3 minutes. If that's pushing an agenda (like a handful of sentences in 30 minutes) then I don't know what criticism you would find acceptable without labelling it agenda-pushing-propaganda.

He mostly mentions the bizarre stuff that's there and the high quality (and is confused by some stylistic shifts in the rulebook) and he also mentions that it kinda pushes beyond sexy into sleazy (and everything is pushed to eleven but everybody is naked). Overall he compares it it experimental progressive rock with good/interesting as well as bad sides (as in: it's not for everybody). The complexity and randomness that can create great moments but it might not be worth it for most but a game that a subset of people will love.

If that's pushing an agenda then I don't know what to say.

Please take the review of the review to a separate thread, and leave the News and Rumors thread for News and Rumors.

Thanks!

Found these reviews clearer.

Those of you who ordered stuff from their store on black Friday... did your stuff show up yet? I haven't had a dispatch email or anything as of yet.

.

anab0lic wrote:
Those of you who ordered stuff from their store on black Friday... did your stuff show up yet? I haven't had a dispatch email or anything as of yet.

Didn't get a dispatch this time either but picked the box up from the gits at the sorting office who got me on customs yesterday.

anab0lic wrote:
Those of you who ordered stuff from their store on black Friday... did your stuff show up yet? I haven't had a dispatch email or anything as of yet.

If its stuff from their HQ they're still working through the 4000+ orders they got (lots of people don't seem to be getting shipping emails, or only get them after the stuff has arrived)

If it's stuff from the EU warehouse that has just (in the last couple of days) been sent out so hopefully it will be arriving soon

Was everything half off on Black Friday? Including existing expansions that are less than half off in the campaign?

I think the expansions were,

but some were sold out everywhere and a fair few were sold out in one warehouse or another

 Mymearan wrote:
Was everything half off on Black Friday? Including existing expansions that are less than half off in the campaign?

Mostly he seems to use BF as a clearance sale to move slower stuff the KS is cheaper then some BF of the past on things like the core game

 dr_ether wrote:

Meanwhile the latest video I did with BoW is up.

Just wanted to say my wife and I are really enjoying those As KDM newbies they are great insights into how the game plays.

Rumor has it, this is the Chimera:

It's possible, but it looks way too complex to be a plastic kit, I can't imagine how many sprues it would require.


Actually, on second thoughts it really doesn't look like a KD monster, more like a fan sculpture.

Since it is at the end of the KS video it cannot be a fun sculpt.

Only problem is that "chimera" as we'll call it showed up in the official video, so I wouldn't be surprised it joins the campaign at some point.

Not sure if anyone noticed, but in the most recent update the change log was updated. Previously, the gold smoke knight capped off at 2 million or so, and the last two reveals were at 900k and 1 million respectively (besides the tweaked gear like the cat gut bow).

With the update of the screaming antelope tweaks, there's now a 1.5 million and 4 million addition to the change log.

Interesting...

Oh, I keep forgetting about that awesome looking thing. Unless it's hideously expensive, I think that one will probably be a must.

And yeah, I noticed those new changelog numbers, too.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Since it is at the end of the KS video it cannot be a fun sculpt.

Ha, well that's one expansion that I won't be buying then! I should be grateful, I'm spending too much on the campaign as it is.

I really really want to back this, but man is this stuff expensive. I play 30k and im shocked at how much these packages are.

How so? I mean the prices are comparable assuming we compare character models.

Not sure about Midnight, but for me it definitely has the *perception* of being expensive, whereas when I actually look at the numbers (and minis) they're not bad at all. Especially some of the xpacs: Nightmare ram xpac with 13 minis for $40, not counting game content? Nice!

The Core Game cost is probably the worst offender since I don't favor the armor sets, but 100 hours of gaming makes up for that.

So is Poots' handling of this campaign normal compared to the previous one? I'm wanting the game more and more, but his approach makes me question whether he can successfully handle $8 million.